Dirk with high praise for Durant - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 06-16-2012, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I disagree completely. Coaches know that a three pointer is worth more than a two pointer. Pops has always shown how creative he is, only an idiot like Avery would take away such a weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not sure what you disagree with, but you didn't refute anything chum said either. Nellie was one of the first (if not the first) guys to allow a seven footer to camp out on the perimeter and rain shots.

I don't know where you get the idea that Popovich (I assume this is "Pops," but I've never heard anybody call him that) is "creative." He's a damn, damn fine coach--possibly the best in the business. Surely a better coach than Nellie overall. But he's very by the book. For 15+ years he's had a team constructed of 5 guys who play their positions in an extremely traditional way. They do it incredibly well, but there's nothing "creative" about Duncan in the low block, Manu and Tony on elbow screens, spacing the floor with shooters, emphasis on corner threes, baseline funneling on defense, etc.

Chum's point was--Dirk's development absolutely had something to do with the untraditional way he was utilized, especially early in his career. If you have a rebuttal to that point, I'd love to hear it, but I don't think it exists.

I would also point out that being smart enough to not take away the weapon is NOT the same thing as having the vision to nurture and embrace the weapon to begin with.

I strongly dislike a great many things about Nellie and the way he goes about his business, but you can't discount the impact he had in shaping Dirk's career and allowing him to thrive as such an unconventional player. Dirk himself has spoke many times about how fortunate he was to have a coach open minded enough to figure out how to best use Dirk's talents, rather than forcing him to conform to the traditional standard of the NBA PF.

jthig32 · 06-16-2012, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Um, Durant is not a seven footer. He's not even close to a seven footer. This has absolutely nothing to do with chum's point. You know who else shoots more threes than Dirk? Ray Allen. That's as relevant as what you just said.

Many NBA analysts and play by play guys have taken to saying that Durant is "practically 7 feet tall" when gushing about him.

Drives me insane. And I love the guy. But he has enough crazy aspects to his play and his story that are awesome. Can we not try and force in another that just doesn't apply?

LonghornDub · 06-16-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I strongly dislike a great many things about Nellie and the way he goes about his business, but you can't discount the impact he had in shaping Dirk's career and allowing him to thrive as such an unconventional player. Dirk himself has spoke many times about how fortunate he was to have a coach open minded enough to figure out how to best use Dirk's talents, rather than forcing him to conform to the traditional standard of the NBA PF.

Agree on all counts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Many NBA analysts and play by play guys have taken to saying that Durant is "practically 7 feet tall" when gushing about him.

Drives me insane. And I love the guy. But he has enough crazy aspects to his play and his story that are awesome. Can we not try and force in another that just doesn't apply?

It's funny, there's a bit of an illusion with his height, I think, because he's so skinny. He looked even taller in college I thought, when he was 15-20 lbs lighter.

markus1234 · 06-16-2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Um, Durant is not a seven footer. He's not even close to a seven footer. This has absolutely nothing to do with chum's point. You know who else shoots more threes than Dirk? Ray Allen. That's as relevant as what you just said.

1st of all young Dirk was not a seven footer either. And 2ndly there were already big guys who shot from outside (Horry, Perkins and co...).

Saying that Nellie gave Dirk as much freedom as Durant (gets from Brooks)...or young Kobe got from Phil Jackson, is simply not true.

Durant gets the "face of the NBA" treatment from his coach, refs and the media. Dirk on the other hand was a "German talent" for too many yrs, nothing more nothing less. And that sucks, because Dirk turned out to be a HOF. He deserved a "bigger role" from the beginning...

Kante · 06-16-2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

1st of all young Dirk was not a seven footer either.

Huh, did i miss somehing?

nowhereman · 06-16-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

Huh, did i miss somehing?

Here's proof - look how he's barely taller than the net:

LonghornDub · 06-16-2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

1st of all young Dirk was not a seven footer either.

wat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

Huh, did i miss somehing?

Unfortunately, you did not.

Rick41 · 06-16-2012, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

1st of all young Dirk was not a seven footer

I stopped reading after this.

markus1234 · 06-16-2012, 07:08 PM

Guys you make me sad. You do not know Dirk.

chumdawg · 06-16-2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

Guys you make me sad. You do not know Dirk.

What did you mean, about his height? I know he has filled out a lot since he got here, but I didn't know that he grew any taller.

markus1234 · 06-16-2012, 07:14 PM

Yes he did.

he was a ~6.10 in Germany

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1...s/nowitzki.htm

then ~6.11 when he came to the NBA

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../si/power.html

7ft...(around ~99/2001)

dude1394 · 06-16-2012, 07:50 PM

Nellie was certainly very creative offensively. And yes dirk has been very complimentary of him, and Avery and everyone really except for diva wade. But I don't see that anyone would have taken away dirks outside shooting or forced him to battle on the blocks instead of playing him like a three. Dirk is... He just is.. He's a freak, we have never seen anything like him before, durant appears to be the closest that I've seen.

Unless the coach were a complete idiot no one was going to force him to play like a power player IMO. I don't think there are many idiots in the nba, college..high school..yes, but nba, nah. Avery is the closest I've seen.

Dirk obviously paved the way for players coming up to play more outside but so did Europe in general.

Edit: I thought durant was closer to seven feet as well. Nba.com has him as 6'9"

LonghornDub · 06-16-2012, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

Yes he did.

he was a ~6.10 in Germany

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1...s/nowitzki.htm

then ~6.11 when he came to the NBA

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../si/power.html

7ft...(around ~99/2001)

Man, you are straining hard. Yikes.

LonghornDub · 06-16-2012, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Nellie was certainly very creative offensively. And yes dirk has been very complimentary of him, and Avery and everyone really except for diva wade. But I don't see that anyone would have taken away dirks outside shooting or forced him to battle on the blocks instead of playing him like a three. Dirk is... He just is.. He's a freak, we have never seen anything like him before, durant appears to be the closest that I've seen.

Unless the coach were a complete idiot no one was going to force him to play like a power player IMO. I don't think there are many idiots in the nba, college..high school..yes, but nba, nah. Avery is the closest I've seen.

Dirk obviously paved the way for players coming up to play more outside but so did Europe in general.

Edit: I thought durant was closer to seven feet as well. Nba.com has him as 6'9"

This is just pretty shortsighted, dude. You're essentially saying that Dirk was destined to develop the way he developed. That's ridiculous. Dirk is incredibly talented and his work ethic is unmatched, but you're absolutely fooling yourself if you don't think he could have potentially turned out a lot worse--or maybe just a lot different--with a different coach in his younger days. Like anyone else in any job, Dirk's a product of a lot more than just his talent and hard work. Circumstances matter a ton.

Frankly, the whole exercise is just useless.

BGMaverick9 · 06-16-2012, 08:14 PM

Fighting so hard to be right...on the internet.

markus1234 · 06-16-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Like anyone else in any job, Dirk's a product of a lot more than just his talent and hard work.

Yes,

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Circumstances matter a ton.

and they weren't as good as Durant's.

That's what the whole debate is about.

LonghornDub · 06-16-2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

and they weren't as good as Durant's.

You're welcome to think that, but you have yet to come anywhere close to backing it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

That's what the whole debate is about.

This whole debate is about you being emo about something Dirk himself said.

Bayliss · 06-16-2012, 08:50 PM

Nellie gave Dirk the freedom to be play his game. I'm not sure other coaches would have allowed Dirk to play his style of game. And back then his style was face up, at the 3 point line, and shoot the rock if open or dribble drive if not. He later turned into the high post machine he is today (and that was not Avery per se because Dirk was doing that stuff before Avery got there in the 2002-2003 season).

But Nellie also wanted Dirk to remain "small." Nellie never pushed Dirk to be the number 1 guy. He never really pushed Dirk to be the Alpha Male on the team. He never really insisted that Dirk expand his game on offense: posts ups/passing/etc... And Nellie also made excuses for Dirk as well. The only reason the term "Irk" exists is because Nellie planted that seed in the minds of the media. And once that seed is planted, no matter how you become they never change their mind......

So the bottom line is Nellie was great for Dirk through his first two years. But by 2000-2001, Dirk needed a coach that would have demanded that he do more and also given him the keys to the franchise. (The only reason Nellie gave Dirk the keys was because Nash left.)

chumdawg · 06-16-2012, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

So the bottom line is Nellie was great for Dirk through his first two years. But by 2000-2001, Dirk needed a coach that would have demanded that he do more and also given him the keys to the franchise. (The only reason Nellie gave Dirk the keys was because Nash left.)

Finley was still a premium player at that time. And I think we all know that the "absolute" ideal place for Dirk is for him to be the second-best player on the team.

Nellie was no fool.

dude1394 · 06-16-2012, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

This is just pretty shortsighted, dude. You're essentially saying that Dirk was destined to develop the way he developed. That's ridiculous. Dirk is incredibly talented and his work ethic is unmatched, but you're absolutely fooling yourself if you don't think he could have potentially turned out a lot worse--or maybe just a lot different--with a different coach in his younger days. Like anyone else in any job, Dirk's a product of a lot more than just his talent and hard work. Circumstances matter a ton.

Frankly, the whole exercise is just useless.

Most of what we yack about around here is useless.

. But I enjoy it nonetheless. Sure he could have turned out a lot worse but I just do not give Nellie as much credit as others. I'm not a big Nellie fan in general anyway, never have been.

Dirk was a three point shooting, ball handling, skinny jump shooting 7 footer. No one had ever seen anything like him then or since actually. His skill set would have dictated how he played. It is possible that some moron could have planted him on the low blocks and watched him get the hell beat out of him, but I'm giving nba coaches more credit than that.

chumdawg · 06-16-2012, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

It is possible that some moron could have planted him on the low blocks and watched him get the hell beat out of him, but I'm giving nba coaches more credit than that.

The's the reason nobody wanted him in the first place.

Murphy3 · 06-16-2012, 11:05 PM

I can remember Dirk being referred to as 6'11 earlier in his career. I have no idea whether or not he grew an inch, but I definitely remember him being listed as 6'11 alot of places when he was younger. Actually, you can still find some sites rather easily that list Dirk as 6'11.

Rick Carlisle · 06-16-2012, 11:32 PM

How many championships did the team win with Don Nelson? Feel free to compare and contrast with other Mavericks coaches in your answer.

chumdawg · 06-16-2012, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Carlisle

How many championships did the team win with Don Nelson? Feel free to compare and contrast with other Mavericks coaches in your answer.

I would say one versus zero, in a metaphorical kind of sense.

chumdawg · 06-16-2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Carlisle

How many championships did the team win with Don Nelson? Feel free to compare and contrast with other Mavericks coaches in your answer.

Sorry, just finished my dinner. I would definitely say Nelson 1 Others 0. Pretty clear.

Budapest Maverick · 06-17-2012, 10:22 AM

Chum, you are hilarious.

Markus, you're not a bad guy, but you're really, really inconsistent with your posts. And of course nobody forgot that you wrote Dirk was done a couple months ago. Whether you like it or not, that's a big disadvantage to overcome. That's really a tough place as far as internet forums go, you can't slip up.

sbibi · 06-17-2012, 10:49 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../si/power.html

"At best, he's the next: Keith Van Horn." This just made me laugh hard!!

GhostFace · 06-17-2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Carlisle

How many championships did the team win with Don Nelson? Feel free to compare and contrast with other Mavericks coaches in your answer.

Oh snap.

Props to Markus for providing that surprising evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Just for fun:

Kidd
Terry
Marion
Dirk
Chandler

vs.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Ibaka
Bizarro Chandler (from an alternate universe where he passed his physical with OKC)

Dirk every time.

saclare · 06-17-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbibi

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../si/power.html

"At best, he's the next: Keith Van Horn." This just made me laugh hard!!

Turrible, turrible, turrible.

markus1234 · 06-17-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

you're really, really inconsistent with your posts. And of course nobody forgot that you wrote Dirk was done a couple months ago.

I probably should have introduced myself (as the biggest DB.com Dirk homer in the universe) before posting such tongue-in-cheek stuff in a game thread.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-17-2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbibi

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../si/power.html

"At best, he's the next: Keith Van Horn." This just made me laugh hard!!

Nowitzki's coach says, "Here comes the Porsche."

Greatness.

LonghornDub · 06-17-2012, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

I probably should have introduced myself (as the biggest DB.com Dirk homer in the universe) before posting such tongue-in-cheek stuff in a game thread.

Tongue in cheek? Come on, man. You're not fooling anybody here with that. Your refusal to own up to it is even weaker than the actual post(s).

markus1234 · 06-17-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Tongue in cheek? Come on, man. You're not fooling anybody here with that. Your refusal to own up to it is even weaker than the actual post(s).

Yes, after Dirk missed 5 consecutive shots during that game i was absolutely serious about him being done.

I hope, you are a happy man now.

LonghornDub · 06-17-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

Yes, after Dirk missed 5 consecutive shots during that game i was absolutely serious about him being done.

I hope, you are a happy man now.

....yeah, you're not a clown at all.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2012, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbibi

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas.../si/power.html

"At best, he's the next: Keith Van Horn." This just made me laugh hard!!

And this lists him at 6'11.

BGMaverick9 · 06-17-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

Yes, after Dirk missed 5 consecutive shots during that game i was absolutely serious about him being done.

I hope, you are a happy man now.

That's unfortunate.

KillerLeft · 06-17-2012, 10:10 PM

I fear that like Dirk, Durant is about to succumb to inexperience and suffer an unfortunate loss to a lesser team in his first trip to the finals.

SportsFan93 · 06-17-2012, 11:14 PM

Praise is earned, but Dirk is humble.

mavs777 · 06-21-2012, 05:51 PM

Anyone still taking Durant over Lebron?

vinylstar · 06-21-2012, 06:21 PM

I grew a couple of inches between 19-22. Why are people in such denial this is a possibility? This happens with most tall-ish people. Hell, John Wall grew between 1" and 2" over last summer.