Ranking Luka right now.

[Thespiralgoeson]

His game 4 performance against the Clippers is one of those historic "I have arrived moments." It just makes me wonder, where should Luka rank among NBA players right now? Not down the road, in terms of potential- because I think it's clear he has the potential to be the best player in the NBA- but right now at age 21? He's easily a top 10 player, and has easily been a top 5 player throughout 2019/2020.

I would say he's easily top 5, but the only thing that gives me pause is that I don't know how or where to rank Durant and Curry. Durant in particular, we don't even know if he'll ever be the same player again due to the severity of his injury. If we just rank players in the 2020 season, my ranking roughly goes like this. (Note: This is not MVP ranking, in which Kawhi would be ranked a lot lower due to number of games missed and carrying a lighter load for his team than other players. Luka would easily outrank Kawhi in MVP voting this year and probably Harden too.)

1. Giannis
2. Kawhi
3. Lebron
4. Harden
5. Luka
6. Jokic
7. Lillard
8. Davis
9. Embiid
10. George

(Not even sure about 9 and 10. Just had to pick two players to round off the list.)

If you have to factor in Durant and Curry though, and operate on the assumption that both guys will be roughly the same as they were pre-injury, that changes things.

1. Giannis
2. Kawhi
3. Durant
4. Lebron
5. Harden
6. Luka
7. Curry
8. Jokic
9. Lillard
10. Davis

Okay, so... am I crazy for having Luka over Curry right now? Is that pure homerism? It feels like blasphemy given how much Curry has accomplished and that he's roughly in his prime or at least close to it. But I feel like Luka just gives you more, and can do more with less. I'd probably rather have Curry as my #1 scoring option on a loaded team. But if I can only pick one great player and I have to trust that guy to carry the team with an average supporting cast? I'm going with Luka.

[KillerLeft]

I think Curry is better right now (if he's the same player when he comes back from injury). The guy I think Luka might be passing is Harden. But, to be honest, I really, really hate Harden, so I might have lost objectivity on that one.

Side note: I think Embiid, in reality, is probably not a top 20 player, although he should be a top 5 player, and maybe number 1. He's just not a hard enough worker.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

The guy I think Luka might be passing is Harden. But, to be honest, I really, really hate Harden, so I might have lost objectivity on that one.

That's fair. I think it's honestly a toss-up. The only reason I really give the edge to Harden right now is the shooting percentages. That's the only real knock on Luka's game right now. If Luka can get up to about 35% 3pt and 80% FT, then I'd probably give the edge to Luka.

[KillerLeft]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's fair. I think it's honestly a toss-up. The only reason I really give the edge to Harden right now is the shooting percentages. That's the only real knock on Luka's game right now. If Luka can get up to about 35% 3pt and 80% FT, then I'd probably give the edge to Luka.

Yeah, Harden is a special offensive player, for sure. I cringe when people compare Luka to him because while they're similar in iso situations, I just feel like Luka's goal throughout a basketball game is to get everyone on the team involved, and I don't think Harden cares about that at all.

[LukaThaDonPart2]

Luka scored 43 points last game while making only 3 free throws. I haven't studied his games closely but I know Harden usually makes 10-12 free throws a game I would be curious if he could score that much without free throws.

[LukaThaDonPart2]

Not that we needed SI to tell us, but I'll still take it.

Luka Doncic: Dallas Mavericks star is next face of NBA - Sports Illustrated.1 day ago

[Dtownsfinest]

I got Luka 8th right now. I got Curry and Lillard in front of him. I'm also conflicted by Anthony Davis. I recognize he's one of the most gifted players in the league but he's also overrated.

[endrity]

I think you can push it and say that right now he's about #4 if you want to pick a player for this season and this season alone.

Only Bron, Kawhi and Giannis have a stronger case. I think Luka and Harden are probably tied, but I do think Luka seems a bit less rattled than Harden, who on the big stage has shown repeatedly that he can lose it a bit.

We'll see next season, but I think KD's injury will affect him substantially. Given his age, size and injury, I think we have seen the last MVP-level seasons from him.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by endrity

I think you can push it and say that right now he's about #4 if you want to pick a player for this season and this season alone.

Only Bron, Kawhi and Giannis have a stronger case. I think Luka and Harden are probably tied, but I do think Luka seems a bit less rattled than Harden, who on the big stage has shown repeatedly that he can lose it a bit.

We'll see next season, but I think KD's injury will affect him substantially. Given his age, size and injury, I think we have seen the last MVP-level seasons from him.

I give the vets a little more credit for doing it longer than Luka. Just not that large enough of a sample size and not much post season success yet.

[Melonhead]

In no exact order

Lebron
Kawhi
Lillard
Curry
Kyrie
Durant
Harden
Giannis
Luka
Donovan Mitchell
Jokic
Jimmy Butler
Embiid
Paul George
Devin Booker

Top 16 players imo. Personally would rank Luka top 8. Mitchell is turning into a legit starter this series vs Denver. Could make a case for Luka top 10 easy. Lukas shooting percentages and the fact that these veterans have been putting up the numbers longer is why I dont have Luka top 5. I still think hes top 5 talent, but Im trying to be objective.

[LukaThaDonPart2]

I think Jamal Murray is making an argument for at least top 20 player, if not top 15.

He scored 33 points in the second half last night, couldn't miss from long distance was unstoppable.

He is Mr. Clutch in the playoffs already he hit the game winner against the Spurs Game 7 in the playoffs last year.

[tap2390]

Who would I start a franchise with right now based on potential and future production?

1) Luka (21)
2) Tatum (22)
3) Booker (23)
4) Giannis (25)
5) Mitchell (23)
6) Morant (20)

Who are the best players in the league right now?

1) Giannis
2) Kawhi
3) Harden
4) Curry
5) Durant
6) Lebron
7) Luka
8) Dame
9) Davis
10) Jokic

[MFFL]

Luka needs 4 things to be the best player in the NBA. He needs to improve his FTs, his 3pt %, and his defense for three. The fourth thing is a flop move. He needs a Harden head-snap type move when he drives the lane so the refs can ASSUME he was fouled instead of the current assumption that he wasn't fouled

His FTs will improve - it just takes effort and Luka will put in the effort. His 3pt percentage should improve. And Luka's D will definitely improve - I expect that the Clipper series will motivate him to take that end as seriously as offense. I think a Kidd level of defense is in Luka's future

The head-snap thing is mostly a joke but the refs aren't taking him seriously right now. Complaining all the time isn't helping. Luka does need to take the refs more seriously if he wants to get those calls though

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by MFFL

I think a Kidd level of defense is in Luka's future

That's a bold, bold, bold statement. Are you talking older Jason Kidd? Because prime Kidd was an absolutely elite defender. I don't see Luka ever reaching that level. I think Luka has the potential to be a slightly above average defender, but not much more than that.

The head-snap thing is mostly a joke but the refs aren't taking him seriously right now. Complaining all the time isn't helping. Luka does need to take the refs more seriously if he wants to get those calls though

Honestly I think the respect just comes with experience. Yeah he complains a lot, but so does every other player. I think the refs still see him as just a kid and not a superstar yet. Give him another year, and I think he'll start to get respect calls that you see the veteran superstars get.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Luka needs 4 things to be the best player in the NBA. He needs to improve his FTs, his 3pt %, and his defense for three. The fourth thing is a flop move. He needs a Harden head-snap type move when he drives the lane so the refs can ASSUME he was fouled instead of the current assumption that he wasn't fouled

His FTs will improve - it just takes effort and Luka will put in the effort. His 3pt percentage should improve. And Luka's D will definitely improve - I expect that the Clipper series will motivate him to take that end as seriously as offense. I think a Kidd level of defense is in Luka's future

The head-snap thing is mostly a joke but the refs aren't taking him seriously right now. Complaining all the time isn't helping. Luka does need to take the refs more seriously if he wants to get those calls though

1) FTs - yup. He can't be below 80-85% as a star. He's shooting in the 70s and was 66% in the playoffs. That isn't going to cut it. He doesn't have to be Dirk, but he also can't only hit 2/3, particularly because unlike Dirk's game for most of his career, his game depends on FTs and aggressive drives.

2) 3pt % - yup, and his % actually went down in his second season. I know defenses focused on him more, but he needs to get it to at least 35% to really punish teams and not just hit them well enough to keep teams honest. I love that he's willing to take the tough shots, but maturity is really knowing when to shoot it and he's had some ill-advised shots. Admitedly, it's because...

3) he needs better teammates and he needs to work with them. Come up with undefendable plays like Dirk and Terry had with their two-man game. He's great passing, but he's a free spirit. Once defenses solidify, he gets strangled out and doesn't have a go-to play other than stepback threes. We have to get him a teammate who is capable of that and he has to learn to punish teams with them.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning.

[Scoobay]

conditioning should help with the FT and 3pt% - i definitely think fatigue played a role in some of those drops.

better teammates is a legit way to help - he can't shoulder the load for 42 minutes/game on offense and that should help with conditioning. A secondary playmaker who can initiate offense would help. Maybe running some sets with Luka either as a decoy or working off the ball rather than always having him initiate. Would still like to see him getting some looks in the low or high post when he's not running the offense with the ball in his hands.

I think Luka's got the brains for good defense and in short spurts can move his feet well enough. I don't think he'll be close to prime Kidd level on defense but who knows - as hyped as i was when we took him i've still underestimated him. his biggest strength is he's probably the best rebounder for a guard i've seen. maybe that nose for the ball will eventually translate in terms of steals and deflections.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's a bold, bold, bold statement. Are you talking older Jason Kidd? Because prime Kidd was an absolutely elite defender. I don't see Luka ever reaching that level. I think Luka has the potential to be a slightly above average defender, but not much more than that.

That was my intent. Like Kidd did in his latter years to use his intelligence to help his defense. Kidd was a much better traditional athlete so he played great D until his body slowed down. But was still a plus defender because of his savant level understanding of the game

I think Luka can become a plus defender. He was flashing signs of it in the bubble

[MFFL]

And better conditioning will help Luka's defense a lot

[DevinHarriswillstart]

The conditioning is directly tied to his constant ankle injuries IMO. He can't keep on with those forever, or he won't have a long career.

[KillerLeft]

I agree with those who say that Luka's conditioning needs to improve, but I'd also say that there was significant improvement with this from year 1 to year 2, so I'm confident he's on the right path.

I actually thought game 6 of the Clippers series was the best on ball defensive game I've seen him play for the Mavs. He has the body to be a good defender, even though his slow feet will probably keep him from being elite on that side of the floor.

It really does all come back to shooting for me. The FT% is concerning, especially since that's often used as a barometer for young players' ability to improve from the 3pt line.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

I agree with those who say that Luka's conditioning needs to improve, but I'd also say that there was significant improvement with this from year 1 to year 2, so I'm confident he's on the right path.

I actually thought game 6 of the Clippers series was the best on ball defensive game I've seen him play for the Mavs. He has the body to be a good defender, even though his slow feet will probably keep him from being elite on that side of the floor.

It really does all come back to shooting for me. The FT% is concerning, especially since that's often used as a barometer for young players' ability to improve from the 3pt line.

I agree, Game 6 was the best in ball defense I remember from him. Having another creator on offense will help so he can rest some and not always have to carry the load on that end. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a 3rd “star” per se but even someone like Lou Williams or Brogdon.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

I agree with those who say that Luka's conditioning needs to improve, but I'd also say that there was significant improvement with this from year 1 to year 2, so I'm confident he's on the right path.

I actually thought game 6 of the Clippers series was the best on ball defensive game I've seen him play for the Mavs. He has the body to be a good defender, even though his slow feet will probably keep him from being elite on that side of the floor.

It really does all come back to shooting for me. The FT% is concerning, especially since that's often used as a barometer for young players' ability to improve from the 3pt line.

I agree, but I also think some of the weight came back during the bubble. He still looks like he is 245-250 when he should be at 225-230 max.

And yes, his defense is weirdly underrated. He can get lazy in some games, but his ball defense is fine.

[SMC0007]

Until Luka doesn't have to do everything on offense, I don't have a ton of concern about his defense. He's not even the worst defender in our SLU.

[Dundalis]

Originally Posted by MFFL

I think a Kidd level of defense is in Luka's future

Yeah, that's just silly. You don't just become a Kidd level defender just because. Luka simply does not have the laterals to be a very good man defender in space. He can become pretty solid post defender because of his size and strength, and continue to improve off ball. If he gets to somewhat above average overall that would be a great effort. He's not becoming some elite all NBA level defender just cause we want him to, or from wishful thinking. Even older Kidd had the lats to mirror penetrators pretty well.

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I agree, but I also think some of the weight came back during the bubble. He still looks like he is 245-250 when he should be at 225-230 max.

And yes, his defense is weirdly underrated. He can get lazy in some games, but his ball defense is fine.

When he doesn't have to defend in space he's actually not too bad. Saw the Clippers trying to isolate him in the post early on in the series, which they kind of stopped, because he's actually reasonably solid there due to his size and core strength. Defending anyone with half decent athleticism and handles out near the 3 point line, he is in fact, quite bad. And no, it's not really about effort. The effort (or lack of) more affects his off ball defending and lack of screen fighting.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by Dundalis

Yeah, that's just silly. You don't just become a Kidd level defender just because. Luka simply does not have the laterals to be a very good man defender in space. He can become pretty solid post defender because of his size and strength, and continue to improve off ball. If he gets to somewhat above average overall that would be a great effort. He's not becoming some elite all NBA level defender just cause we want him to, or from wishful thinking. Even older Kidd had the lats to mirror penetrators pretty well.

When he doesn't have to defend in space he's actually not too bad. Saw the Clippers trying to isolate him in the post early on in the series, which they kind of stopped, because he's actually reasonably solid there due to his size and core strength. Defending anyone with half decent athleticism and handles out near the 3 point line, he is in fact, quite bad. And no, it's not really about effort. The effort (or lack of) more affects his off ball defending and lack of screen fighting.

Basketball savants, which Luka is certainly one, are mostly pretty decent defenders because they know what's about to happen. Plus they learn tricks to compensate for any physical deficiencies

Luka just has to get his physical conditioning to the point where he has the energy to play defense at a high level

[MFFL]

If Harden can get to be a plus defender then Luka should be able to do the same

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by MFFL

If Harden can get to be a plus defender then Luka should be able to do the same

I agree with this. Harden is and always has been the best comparison for Luka in almost every aspect. Harden isn't great on the perimeter, but he's very effective in the post. There's no reason Luka can't do the same.

[KillerLeft]

I feel like Luka's defense not only improved from the regular season to the playoffs, but improved steadily with each passing playoff game. In game 6, I felt like he played an actual good game defensively.

I agree with those who think he'll be a plus defender, and that it will happen sooner rather than later. But, if I'm being honest, I don't think he'll ever get to Jason Kidd level on that end.

[Dtownsfinest]

One thing about Harden is the Rocket have always surrounded him with some solid perimeter defenders. Covington this year....in previous years it was Ariza and Patrick Beverly.......we've never had any defenders of their caliber.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by tap2390

Who would I start a franchise with right now based on potential and future production?

1) Luka (21)
2) Tatum (22)
3) Booker (23)
4) Giannis (25)
5) Mitchell (23)
6) Morant (20)

Who are the best players in the league right now?

1) Giannis
2) Kawhi
3) Harden
4) Curry
5) Durant
6) Lebron
7) Luka
8) Dame
9) Davis
10) Jokic

This is such an interesting topic imo. Because it might be prisoner of the moment on my part but I personally can't have Giannis at 1. He doesn't really have a go to move, unless you count fast break dunks or dribble spin move as a go to move(not to be confused with post moves because he's not some low post monster). It works really well in the regular season but I can't trust him in the playoffs to carry my team through tough stretches. Meanwhile I look at Kawhi who every year gets better in the playoffs and no matter how much PG13 stunk up the bubble Kawhi was like a calming force for them all series.

I don't know exactly how I'd rank them but I know Kawhi is 1 for me and assuming health KD would be 2. I think I'd still take Lebron right now at 3 then I'd prolly take Giannis at 4. Then 5-10 would be even tougher because I really can't stop thinking Mitchell is really deserving of being in my top 10 but I guess I'll hold off for half a season before I do that. 5 Curry, 6 Luka, 7 Harden, 8 Dame, 9 AD and 10... I've changed my mind it's literally gonna be mitchell or tatum depending on what side of the bed I wake up on.

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

This is such an interesting topic imo. Because it might be prisoner of the moment on my part but I personally can't have Giannis at 1. He doesn't really have a go to move, unless you count fast break dunks or dribble spin move as a go to move(not to be confused with post moves because he's not some low post monster). It works really well in the regular season but I can't trust him in the playoffs to carry my team through tough stretches. Meanwhile I look at Kawhi who every year gets better in the playoffs and no matter how much PG13 stunk up the bubble Kawhi was like a calming force for them all series.

I don't know exactly how I'd rank them but I know Kawhi is 1 for me and assuming health KD would be 2. I think I'd still take Lebron right now at 3 then I'd prolly take Giannis at 4. Then 5-10 would be even tougher because I really can't stop thinking Mitchell is really deserving of being in my top 10 but I guess I'll hold off for half a season before I do that. 5 Curry, 6 Luka, 7 Harden, 8 Dame, 9 AD and 10... I've changed my mind it's literally gonna be mitchell or tatum depending on what side of the bed I wake up on.

Interesting, where do you put Luka?


EDIT: Nevermind I can't read!

[BPo001]

I feel like AD should be higher, but I don’t know who I move down the list. I don’t think KD is going to be the same player after the injury, so I’m not sure he will still be top 10. His size is going to allow him to still get shots off, and he is an above average shooter. I think he is going to have to change his game up though due to losing explosiveness. Basically learn to play like Dirk in his later years. Get to his spots, and kill people with midrange. He had been implementing Dirks fade-away before his injury. If he can add that to his arsenal he will still be able to put up points.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by BPo001

I feel like AD should be higher, but I don’t know who I move down the list. I don’t think KD is going to be the same player after the injury, so I’m not sure he will still be top 10. His size is going to allow him to still get shots off, and he is an above average shooter. I think he is going to have to change his game up though due to losing explosiveness. Basically learn to play like Dirk in his later years. Get to his spots, and kill people with midrange. He had been implementing Dirks fade-away before his injury. If he can add that to his arsenal he will still be able to put up points.

Learning to play with your back to the basket is tough and takes time to learn. You need to have a strong back/core and a lower center of gravity to make sure that others aren't changing your equilibrium.

Dirk was probably not as strong as to consistently push power forwards, but he could do it regularly against smaller forwards.

KD is a lot lighter, has a smaller frame, and still uses the mid-post as starting position to then get around defenders with his speed. In many ways KP has similar issues. Though he is taller, he has also has a higher center of gravity and smaller players can really bother his posture during a shot.

To make a long story short, I really think KD is about to hit a wall and we have seen the last of his MVP-level seasons. He will probably still be an All-Star for a few more years, especially in the East, but that will be his level. Which is good, but not enough to be on a Top 5 list or to win a championship.

[bulldogsjc]

Looking Good?

[KillerLeft]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

This is such an interesting topic imo. Because it might be prisoner of the moment on my part but I personally can't have Giannis at 1. He doesn't really have a go to move, unless you count fast break dunks or dribble spin move as a go to move(not to be confused with post moves because he's not some low post monster). It works really well in the regular season but I can't trust him in the playoffs to carry my team through tough stretches. Meanwhile I look at Kawhi who every year gets better in the playoffs and no matter how much PG13 stunk up the bubble Kawhi was like a calming force for them all series.

I don't know exactly how I'd rank them but I know Kawhi is 1 for me and assuming health KD would be 2. I think I'd still take Lebron right now at 3 then I'd prolly take Giannis at 4. Then 5-10 would be even tougher because I really can't stop thinking Mitchell is really deserving of being in my top 10 but I guess I'll hold off for half a season before I do that. 5 Curry, 6 Luka, 7 Harden, 8 Dame, 9 AD and 10... I've changed my mind it's literally gonna be mitchell or tatum depending on what side of the bed I wake up on.

Good stuff here.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

This is such an interesting topic imo. Because it might be prisoner of the moment on my part but I personally can't have Giannis at 1. He doesn't really have a go to move, unless you count fast break dunks or dribble spin move as a go to move(not to be confused with post moves because he's not some low post monster). It works really well in the regular season but I can't trust him in the playoffs to carry my team through tough stretches. Meanwhile I look at Kawhi who every year gets better in the playoffs and no matter how much PG13 stunk up the bubble Kawhi was like a calming force for them all series.

I don't know exactly how I'd rank them but I know Kawhi is 1 for me and assuming health KD would be 2. I think I'd still take Lebron right now at 3 then I'd prolly take Giannis at 4. Then 5-10 would be even tougher because I really can't stop thinking Mitchell is really deserving of being in my top 10 but I guess I'll hold off for half a season before I do that. 5 Curry, 6 Luka, 7 Harden, 8 Dame, 9 AD and 10... I've changed my mind it's literally gonna be mitchell or tatum depending on what side of the bed I wake up on.

Interesting take on Giannis, and it's looking better by the day.

He really reminds a lot of Garnett. I really thought Garnett was the the best player in the league in 03-04, but he also didn't have a real go-to move, and he also wasn't the guy you'd want to have to carry the offensive load for a team in the playoffs. I think it's telling that he only won his ring when he was surrounded by better scorers, and he could just focus primarily on defense and rebounding.

This to me is why I rank Dirk higher all-time than KG. KG could never do what Dirk did in 2011.

Giannis really seems to be that same type of player. Arguably the best "all-around" player in the league, but on offense, he's probably better as a second option.

[Scoobay]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Interesting take on Giannis, and it's looking better by the day.

He really reminds a lot of Garnett. I really thought Garnett was the the best player in the league in 03-04, but he also didn't have a real go-to move, and he also wasn't the guy you'd want to have to carry the offensive load for a team in the playoffs. I think it's telling that he only won his ring when he was surrounded by better scorers, and he could just focus primarily on defense and rebounding.

This to me is why I rank Dirk higher all-time than KG. KG could never do what Dirk did in 2011.

Giannis really seems to be that same type of player. Arguably the best "all-around" player in the league, but on offense, he's probably better as a second option.

Giannis seems like a good dude overall - KG was a prick.

100% agree on Dirk >>> KG

In head to head, Dirk basically owned him. For as much of a good defensive player as he was, he and his teams were never able to slow Dirk down.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Interesting take on Giannis, and it's looking better by the day.

He really reminds a lot of Garnett. I really thought Garnett was the the best player in the league in 03-04, but he also didn't have a real go-to move, and he also wasn't the guy you'd want to have to carry the offensive load for a team in the playoffs. I think it's telling that he only won his ring when he was surrounded by better scorers, and he could just focus primarily on defense and rebounding.

This to me is why I rank Dirk higher all-time than KG. KG could never do what Dirk did in 2011.

Giannis really seems to be that same type of player. Arguably the best "all-around" player in the league, but on offense, he's probably better as a second option.

That is actually a very good comparison and one that might end up being quite prophetic. Giannis really needs to have other people around him who can score better in order to allow him the space to operate and do what he does best on both ends.

But it really took a unique opportunity for KG to land in Boston with two perennial All-Stars who were on the almost-end of their prime period, and who really wanted to win a ring, and really were willing to sacrifice money and stats to do so.

Giannis might need such an opportunity, you know, one where an MVP-level ballhandler and creator is still on a rookie contract, to take him to the promised land.

[KillerLeft]

Originally Posted by endrity

Giannis might need such an opportunity, you know, one where an MVP-level ballhandler and creator is still on a rookie contract, to take him to the promised land.

He absolutely does need a ball handler. Maybe not an MVP level, but at least an All Star level playmaker.

The question is: Does HE know that?