NBA Coast to Coast - Josh Howard better than Dirk?! - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dortmund · 01-30-2008, 02:46 PM

did you all hear what one of the idiots on nba coast-to-coast said last night?!

he's claiming that josh howard is a better overall player than dirk. it also sounded like he was leaning on howard being more important to the team.

now where the hell does he get that?

overall leaders between dirk and josh:

fg% - dirk
ft% - dirk
3pt% - dirk
rebounds - dirk
assists - dirk
blocks - dirk
points - dirk
steals - josh

josh is only better in steals. and looking at it from a non-stat perspective, dirk is the one that teams worry about. its dirk that always gets double teamed, not josh. dirk usually takes the big shots and is our franchise player ffs.

sorry for the rant. stupid "professional" analysts.

anyone got any thoughts?

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-30-2008, 02:53 PM

What bothers me is why the media thinks KG is God's gift to earth. I'd have Dirk over KG any day of the week.

DirkFTW · 01-30-2008, 03:03 PM

I think it's clear from these reports that Josh is our MIP. 501, yo!

MavsX · 01-30-2008, 03:03 PM

good stats.

Dortmund · 01-30-2008, 03:12 PM

i just posted those stats to see what he could have been talking about when he said better overall player? nothing shows for his arguement. the stats don't and neither does anything else like his importance to the team, vision on the court, smarts, etc.

Hydhypedplaya · 01-30-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

What bothers me is why the media thinks KG is God's gift to earth. I'd have Dirk over KG any day of the week.

How can you even say that? KG is wayyyyyyyyyyyy better than Dirk..its not even close...KG has a great offensive game and is an amazing defender (something Dirk is not even close to being)

Flacolaco · 01-30-2008, 03:46 PM

Anyone seen Silk lately?

Thespiralgoeson · 01-30-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya

How can you even say that? KG is wayyyyyyyyyyyy better than Dirk..its not even close...KG has a great offensive game and is an amazing defender (something Dirk is not even close to being)

KG is a much better defender, but the simple fact is that opposing defenses don't scramble to try to find ways to deal with him. His offensive game is good, but not "great." At the end of the day, I would say Dirk leaves at least as much of a mark on the game, probably more. Really it's a toss up, but of the two I would take Dirk.

Hydhypedplaya · 01-30-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

KG is a much better defender, but the simple fact is that opposing defenses don't scramble to try to find ways to deal with him. His offensive game is good, but not "great." At the end of the day, I would say Dirk leaves at least as much of a mark on the game, probably more. Really it's a toss up, but of the two I would take Dirk.

KEVIN GARNETT
2007-08 Statistics
PPG 19.2
RPG 9.9
APG 3.8
SPG 1.4
BPG 1.4
FG% 0.551
FT% 0.803
3P% 0.000
MPG 35.0

DIRK
2007-08 Statistics
PPG 22.3
RPG 8.6
APG 3.8
SPG 0.7
BPG 1.0
FG% 0.487
FT% 0.871
3P% 0.322
MPG 36.5

Garnett does everything Dirk does either better or the same. Dirk plays a couple extra minutes more a game then KG too. Also you have to remember that earlier in the season the Celtics were just repeatedly blowing out teams so KG would barely play any minutes in the 4th quarter. Whenever the celtics would have a close game KG's numbers would go up...after taking all of this into account you have to remember that KG controls the paint on the defensive end....the guy just has amazing defense and that is something that Dirk will never be able to do throughout his career...Another thing about KG is that somebody like Stephen Jackson would NEVER EVER be able to shut down KG...that would just fire KG up more...the guy wears his heart on his sleeve and plays w/ raw emotion and brings it EVERY SINGLE GAME...I mean put your homerism aside for a second and really think about who the better player is. (Also remember if KG has to he can EASILY be the leagues top rebounder, he has done it in the past and if his team needs him to he would do it again)

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-30-2008, 04:27 PM

Ok lets put it this way..when the two duel, Dirk usually wins. And I don't think Hypedplaya watches many Mavs games if he thinks Dirk isn't even close to as good of a defender. I think Dirk is a very solid defensive player this season. He covers the post very well this year.

mary · 01-30-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Anyone seen Silk lately?

who?

Bathouse Bear · 01-30-2008, 04:59 PM

Dirk is a better basketball player than Kevin Garnett.

He wins more, he scores more and he produces in the playoffs.

When the two of them went head to head in the 2002 playoffs Dirk averaged 30 points and 15 rebounds in leading the Mavs to a sweep.

Tokey41 · 01-30-2008, 05:07 PM

I've heard a few analysts make the claim that Josh is the Mavericks best all around player. We all know that's ridiculous, and we all know this team wouldn't be where it's at if Dirk wasnt on it.

And for the little mini debate going on here... if we replaced the reigning MVP with KG, we would have a similar record. But KG is by no means a far better player than Dirk, it's too close to call (although Dirk usually gets the best of him in head to heads, which in my books gives him the slight edge).

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-30-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

I've heard a few analysts make the claim that Josh is the Mavericks best all around player. We all know that's ridiculous, and we all know this team wouldn't be where it's at if Dirk wasnt on it.

And for the little mini debate going on here... if we replaced the reigning MVP with KG, we would have a similar record. But KG is by no means a far better player than Dirk, it's too close to call (although Dirk usually gets the best of him in head to heads, which in my books gives him the slight edge).

Amen brotha!

Thespiralgoeson · 01-30-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydhypedplaya

KEVIN GARNETT
2007-08 Statistics
PPG 19.2
RPG 9.9
APG 3.8
SPG 1.4
BPG 1.4
FG% 0.551
FT% 0.803
3P% 0.000
MPG 35.0

DIRK
2007-08 Statistics
PPG 22.3
RPG 8.6
APG 3.8
SPG 0.7
BPG 1.0
FG% 0.487
FT% 0.871
3P% 0.322
MPG 36.5

Garnett does everything Dirk does either better or the same. Dirk plays a couple extra minutes more a game then KG too. Also you have to remember that earlier in the season the Celtics were just repeatedly blowing out teams so KG would barely play any minutes in the 4th quarter. Whenever the celtics would have a close game KG's numbers would go up...after taking all of this into account you have to remember that KG controls the paint on the defensive end....the guy just has amazing defense and that is something that Dirk will never be able to do throughout his career...Another thing about KG is that somebody like Stephen Jackson would NEVER EVER be able to shut down KG...that would just fire KG up more...the guy wears his heart on his sleeve and plays w/ raw emotion and brings it EVERY SINGLE GAME...

Dude, it's easy to dole out shallow stats like ppg. The fact of the matter is, as scorers they're really not even close. Dirk can create his own shot, Garnett can't. Defenses are thrown into chaos trying to cover Dirk. They don't do that for Garnett. Never have.

And also, it wasn't Stephen Jackson who shut down Dirk, it was the warriors (and I'd say Avery did as much as he could to "shut Dirk down" as well.) And if KG was in the same position, I doubt they'd have to "shut down" KG, because they'd probably just put single coverage on him through the whole series.

Quote:

I mean put your homerism aside for a second and really think about who the better player is. (Also remember if KG has to he can EASILY be the leagues top rebounder, he has done it in the past and if his team needs him to he would do it again)

Garnett is a better passer, rebounder and defender than Dirk is. But as scorers, they're not close. And please, don't just throw stats like PPG or FG%, because if you're just going to go by the most arbitrary of statistics, then Duncan's career pales in comparison's to Garnett's, but we all know that's just not true.

AxdemxO · 01-30-2008, 05:40 PM

OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

why do people on here always start dumb comparisons

KG > Dirk > Howard

I love Dirk but hes not better then KG period as an overall BB player. Dirk is obviously better then Josh, but I would assume that what the guys meant is that Josh is "Good" or average at almost every aspect of the game while Dirk is grat (one of the best ever) in one aspect and average or below average in others. Thats wht they meant by Josh being better overall, but that one place where Dirk is great makes him better than Josh and thats offense. If Josh keeps improving his offense and gets to a certain point then you could make a case but rite now its not.

**response to some1 saying somthing tht made no sense a cup of posts above. KG is always doubled and teams do always look for ways to stop him, but they never do because hes a great passer and if hes not doing it offensively then he is defensively.

Dirkadirkastan · 01-30-2008, 05:46 PM

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't pay much heed to those who intentionally misspell words.

Underdog · 01-30-2008, 05:50 PM

When is the last time Josh (or even Garnett) was TRIPLE-teamed?

endrity · 01-30-2008, 05:58 PM

When will people realize that KG's offense is average, not good at anything. When did anyone see him dominate in the low block. Please tell me. Please tell me what low block moves does he have, cause I've watched him for a couple of years and have yet to see any. He has one, ONE, offensive move, a little turnaround on the left block 10-15 feet away. But it only extends at that. His shooting beyond that range is iffy. What Dirk does to opposing defenses is incomparable to Garnett. I never saw the Spurs change their whole philosophy to cover Garnett.

Fact is great players take over games by scoring. We have had one player in this league that made a reputation as a all-time great with defense, Bill Russell. And one could argue that he had so much offensive talent around that he never needed to score. The problem with KG is that he is good at every trade, a master at none. Which means in the 4th quarter you can only do so much. That is why Dirk has consistently been a great 4th quarter scorer and KG hasn't. And by the way Dirk's defense might not be as good as Garnett's but ever since Nash and Fin left, I rarely see Dirk put in a tough situation. The penetration we allowed back in the day made him look even worse than he really was. The Mavs have been a great defensive team under Avery so Dirk can't be that bad. And I have read scouts who say that the one which gives orders to the defense on the floor is Dirk, he points out the plays of the opposition and stuff. His physical limits will not allow him to be a great defender, but he has become a smarter one.

Regarding the Josh thing. It's not new. It's just people trying to find something new to say. They blame Dirk for last year, so in order to say that the Mavs are good this year you gotta reward someone else. Anyone that has seen the Mavs knows it's not true. More important than that, you could argue our success in the 1st half is just as much because of Devin. But he is not known nationally so you can't say him just yet.

AxdemxO · 01-30-2008, 06:04 PM

KG is double teamed and triple teamed and if you dont think so then you dont watch many games with him in it. He was being double and triple teamed long before Dirk was.
Dirk is better on offense ...no doubt...but over all BB player....KG is ahead

Underdog · 01-30-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

KG is double teamed and triple teamed and if you dont think so then you dont watch many games with him in it. He was being double and triple teamed long before Dirk was.
Dirk is better on offense ...no doubt...but over all BB player....KG is ahead

Doubled teamed? Yes...

Tripled teamed??? Well, if we're watching the same games, then I'm not smoking the same shit you are...

The only player in the league that I see constantly tripled is Dirk (and that's only because it worked against him in the Golden State series...)

Nobody in the NBA gets tripled regularly because most great players (Kobe, LeBron, even Garnett) will punish a team for it, so nobody swarms their entire defense on ONE player...

The good news? Dirk is learning how to punish teams with his pass, so by the end of this season nobody in the league is going to be tripled...

AxdemxO · 01-30-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The only player in the league that I see constantly tripled is Dirk (and that's only because it worked against him in the Golden State series...)

Ohhhh thats BS..."constantly"...pleasee you make it sound like he playing one on 3 out there everynite. You are soo over exaggerating this. Yes Dirk is double and triple teamed, but constantly? the only player?? KG, Kobe, and other get that too

Underdog · 01-30-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Ohhhh thats BS..."constantly"...pleasee you make it sound like he playing one on # out there everything. You are soo over exaggerating this. Yes Dirk is double and triple teamed, but constantly? the only player?? KG, Kobe, and other get that too

Okay, let me rephrase: Dirk is the only player in the NBA who gets tripled teamed every 1 in 3 games...

Garnett gets tripled at a couple crucial points in the season... Dirk gets tripled with regularity (although that's dropped off as he's learned to deal with it...)

JeopardE · 01-30-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Okay, let me rephrase: Dirk is the only player in the NBA who gets tripled teamed every 1 in 3 games...

Garnett gets tripled at a couple crucial points in the season... Dirk gets tripled with regularity (although that's dropped off as he's learned to deal with it...)

Yao Ming would like to have a word with you.

Underdog · 01-30-2008, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeopardE

Yao Ming would like to have a word with you.

Really???

If there's 3 people on Yao - who covers Tmac? (or the other 3 guys?)

My point is that pretty much NOBODY gets triple-covered in the NBA with any regularity because it's an ass-hat move on the defensive end...

Dirk was, but only because it worked... Now it doesn't, so he won't be as often...

[lots of new posters crawling out of the woodwork on this thread - are any of you Dallas fans?]

SeriousSummer · 01-30-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Really???

If there's 3 people on Yao - who covers Tmac? (or the other 3 guys?)

My point is that pretty much NOBODY gets triple-covered in the NBA with any regularity because it's an ass-hat move on the defensive end...

Dirk was, but only because it worked... Now it doesn't, so he won't be as often...

[lots of new posters crawling out of the woodwork on this thread - are any of you Dallas fans?]

Yao does get triple-teamed about the same amount as Dirk. Nobody needs to cover T-Mac because he's out hurt. What other three guys?

This isn't because Dirk and Yao are the best scorers in the game. It's because Dirk and Yao are the best scoring big men in the game. Shaq (when he was still Shaq) got triple-teamed.

It's very difficult to triple-team perimeter players--too much room is left open close to the basket. You can, to some extent, triple team very dominant post players--if they aren't great passers and the pass out of the triple team leads to a lower percentage shot than the player would get otherwise (in the last decade this has been limited to Shaq & Yao--Duncan passes well enough to make even a double-team dicey--and he's had strong enough teammates to pass to).

Don Nelson showed his genius by realizing that the test whether to double- and triple-team didn't depend, necessarily, on how close to the basket the player was. Dirk at 15' shoots an incredibly high percentage one-on-one. What mattered was the player's mobility and passing ability. Unlike a Kobe or LeBron, Dirk at 7'0", while an excellent ball handler for his size, isn't mobile enough to beat double- or triple-teams off the dribble. At the same time, Dirk didn't pass the ball well, his teammates didn't space the floor well, and Dallas played two nonscorers much of the time (at center and [what laughingly was called] shooting guard).

So you could double- and triple-team Dirk, take him out of his game and not pay for it. Dirk is/was, for all intents and purposes the last two years a post player--he just played a very high post. The turn around jumper at the elbow is his post move.

Triple-teaming Garnett is a silly idea--I've never seen it in the 50 or more games I've watched Garnett play. First, he isn't that dominant a scorer, and second, he's always been a good passer. Even when he was surrounded by weak players, Garnett (even more so than Duncan) isn't a player it makes sense to double- or triple-team. He rarely scores in really high numbers. He has always been able to hurt you with the pass.

Underdog · 01-30-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

Yao does get triple-teamed about the same amount as Dirk. Nobody needs to cover T-Mac because he's out hurt. What other three guys?

This isn't because Dirk and Yao are the best scorers in the game. It's because Dirk and Yao are the best scoring big men in the game. Shaq (when he was still Shaq) got triple-teamed.

It's very difficult to triple-team perimeter players--too much room is left open close to the basket. You can, to some extent, triple team very dominant post players--if they aren't great passers and the pass out of the triple team leads to a lower percentage shot than the player would get otherwise (in the last decade this has been limited to Shaq & Yao--Duncan passes well enough to make even a double-team dicey--and he's had strong enough teammates to pass to).

Don Nelson showed his genius by realizing that the test whether to double- and triple-team didn't depend, necessarily, on how close to the basket the player was. Dirk at 15' shoots an incredibly high percentage one-on-one. What mattered was the player's mobility and passing ability. Unlike a Kobe or LeBron, Dirk at 7'0", while an excellent ball handler for his size, isn't mobile enough to beat double- or triple-teams off the dribble. At the same time, Dirk didn't pass the ball well, his teammates didn't space the floor well, and Dallas played two nonscorers much of the time (at center and [what laughingly was called] shooting guard).

So you could double- and triple-team Dirk, take him out of his game and not pay for it. Dirk is/was, for all intents and purposes the last two years a post player--he just played a very high post. The turn around jumper at the elbow is his post move.

Triple-teaming Garnett is a silly idea--I've never seen it in the 50 or more games I've watched Garnett play. First, he isn't that dominant a scorer, and second, he's always been a good passer. Even when he was surrounded by weak players, Garnett (even more so than Duncan) isn't a player it makes sense to double- or triple-team. He rarely scores in really high numbers. He has always been able to hurt you with the pass.

I agree with most of this...

Oh, and I was referring to the rare occasions that Yao & Tmac are actually on the court at the same time... And the "what other three guys?" - comedic gold...

Five-ofan · 01-30-2008, 07:54 PM

couple of things, KG is no longer a signifigantly better or even clearly better passer than dirk. KG is a better rebounder. that is unquestionable. KG is a better defender than dirk. However, rebounding and defense is much easier to get out of role players than DOMINANT scoring. Whens the last time you heard someone say about a roll player all he does is put up 25 a night but he doesnt defend or rebound? The answer is never because guys who do that arent role players. They are stars. as to the dirk/josh debate, its insanely obvious to anyone who watches the mavs play(and if you think josh is at least average in everything you need to see him pass) but its not shocking to say dirk is the mavs best player so they dont say that.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-30-2008, 08:52 PM

The difference between Dirk and KG in defense is much less than the gap between KG and Dirk on offense is what I think people are trying to say.

Five-ofan · 01-30-2008, 09:01 PM

thats not my point at all though i think its true. my point is that for your superstar youd rather him be a dominant scorer than an all around type that can be dealt with by single coverage.

nowhereman · 01-30-2008, 09:01 PM

you put dirk instead of KG on those t-wolves teams and i would bet that they'd at least make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs more than once. KG doesn't impact the game on D near as much as Dirk does on O, and KG most certainly doesn't anchor and orient a defense nearly as much as Dirk orients an offense. Dirk is an above average defender, but any deficiencies can be masked in a defense. KG isn't really close to the offensive talent that Dirk is and you can't really scheme around that.

I'd take Dirk 10 times out of 10.

Dirkadirkastan · 01-30-2008, 09:06 PM

"Roll" player.

ShaggyDirk · 01-30-2008, 09:12 PM

I just burped up some meat sauce reading a few of these posts.

Five-ofan · 01-30-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

"Roll" player.

i guess oliver miller was your ideal roll player then.

Silk Smoov · 01-30-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Anyone seen Silk lately?

I am here. I have been very busy lately and have been just lurking around reading the boards. My interest has peaked again with all those three way trade stuff going on right now.

foglemann · 01-30-2008, 10:12 PM

What's the playoff head to head of Dirk vs. KG???

Five-ofan · 01-30-2008, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

What's the playoff head to head of Dirk vs. KG???

kg averaged 24 18.7 and 5 on 42.9% shooting. dirk had over 30 and 15 in every game and shot over 50% i believe. since the wolves didnt play anymore its easier to get his numbers than dirks. the mavs swept.

Silk Smoov · 01-30-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

What's the playoff head to head of Dirk vs. KG???

Come on, we should not even go there with comparing Dirk and KG. Clearly defense wins titles. That is all I have to say about that comparison.

Five-ofan · 01-30-2008, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Come on, we should not even go there with comparing Dirk and KG. Clearly defense wins titles. That is all I have to say about that comparison.

this isnt football or hockey. defense doesnt necesarrily win championships. balance coupled with a dominant player who can impose his will does. And why shouldnt we go there?

foglemann · 01-30-2008, 10:36 PM

I'm looking for Wins vs. Loses. I'm not arguing, I think KG is overated as well. Just didn't know what is was.