Moderate Muslims I am sure they are misunderstood...

[FishForLunch]

Two charged with honour killing

Associated Press in Rome
Thursday August 17, 2006
The Guardian


Italian police were searching yesterday for a man suspected of involvement in the killing of a Pakistani woman after her father and uncle were charged with slitting her throat because she dated an Italian man and refused to conform to an Islamic lifestyle.
Investigators believe the third suspect helped the father and uncle kill Hina Saleem, 21. The woman's body was found buried in the family's garden in Sarezzo on Saturday. Her father and uncle were taken into custody on Monday.

Investigators said they were looking into the theory that the grave was dug before the woman was killed. It is thought a long kitchen knife was used to slit her throat.
The Milan daily Corriere della Sera reported that the victim's father had applied for Italian citizenship two months ago. Applicants must convince authorities that they also embrace "fundamental" rights, including the right of a woman "to choose her own life", said the interior minister, Giuliano Amato.

News reports said the victim's family had been insisting on an arranged marriage with a cousin in Pakistan.

[mcsluggo]

in a related story, all christians and white people from North America are shown to be murderous pedophiles

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968793972154

Aug. 18, 2006. 08:01 AM
NICOLAAS VAN RIJN
STAFF REPORTER

John Mark Karr, the 41-year-old elementary teacher arrested Wednesday in Thailand on charges he killed 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey a decade ago, likely won't be returned to the U.S. to face a first-degree murder charge until sometime next week, officials say.

THere is much to criticize in the Islamic world, and unfortunately right now there are increasing rather than decreasing instances. However, we need to be careful when painting with such broad strokes.

No matter what we do, there are > 1 billion muslims inthe world. It seems to be your assertion that they are ALL evil/enemies. (correct me if I'm wrong) If that IS your assertion, then what is the solution?

[FishForLunch]

Solution is dont try to find excuses to why we should not judge them and that we maybe the reason why they are acting that way.

You may not see the see anything wrong with this now and think their culture is something we should try to understand. Once they start demanding Sharia and the next step will be seperate schools, holidays. Heck it is already happening in Britain.

If a country is to survive then its citizens first priortiy should be the country, then their religion and not the other way around.

[capitalcity]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

However, we need to be careful when painting with such broad strokes.

That's why we're using smart bombs.

[FishForLunch]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...11826486&hl=en

[FishForLunch]

Moderate Muslim Nation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia, Aug. 19 — From the scant personal details that can be pieced together about Lina Joy, she converted from Islam to Christianity eight years ago and since then has endured extraordinary hurdles in her desire to marry the man in her life.

Her name is a household word in this majority Muslim country. But she is now in hiding after death threats from Islamic extremists, who accuse her of being an apostate.

Five years ago she started proceedings in the civil courts to seek the right to marry her Christian fiancé and have children. Because she had renounced her Muslim faith, Ms. Joy, 42, argued, Malaysia’s Islamic Shariah courts, which control such matters as marriage, property and divorce, did not have jurisdiction over her.

In a series of decisions, the civil courts ruled against her. Then, last month, her lawyer, Benjamin Dawson, appeared before Malaysia’s highest court, the Court of Appeals, to argue that Ms. Joy’s conversion be considered a right protected under the Constitution, not a religious matter for the Shariah courts.

“She’s trying to live her life with someone she loves,” Mr. Dawson said in an interview.

Threats against Ms. Joy had become so insistent, and the passions over her conversion so inflamed, he had concluded there was no room for her and her fiancé in Malaysia. The most likely solution, he said, was for her to emigrate.

For Malaysia, which considers itself a moderate and modern Muslim country with a tolerance for its multiple religions and ethnic groups of Malays, Indians and Chinese, the case has kicked up a firestorm that goes to the very heart of who is a Malay, and what is Malaysia.

Her case has heightened a searing battle that has included street protests and death threats between groups advocating a secular interpretation of the Constitution, and Islamic groups that contend the Shariah courts should have supremacy in many matters.

Some see the rulings against Ms. Joy as a sign of increasing Islamization, and of the pressures felt by the government of Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi as it tries to respond to the opposition Islamic party, Parti Islam Semalaysia.

About 60 percent of Malaysia’s 26 million people are Muslim, 20 percent are Buddhist, nearly 10 percent are Christian and 6 percent Hindu.

Malaysia has powerful Islamic Affairs Departments in its 13 states and in the capital district around Kuala Lumpur. The departments, a kind of parallel bureaucracy to the state apparatus that were strengthened during the 22-year rule of former Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, run the Shariah courts.

“Malaysia is at a crossroads,” Mr. Dawson said. “Do we go down the Islamic road, or do we maintain the secular character of the federal constitution that has been eroding in the last 10 years?”

In rulings in her case, civil courts said Malays could not renounce Islam because the Constitution defined Malays to be Muslims.

They also ruled that a request to change her identity card from Muslim to Christian had to be decided by the Shariah courts. There she would be considered an apostate, and if she did not repent she surely would be sentenced to several years in an Islamic center for rehabilitation.

Mr. Dawson said Ms. Joy had been interested in Roman Catholicism since 1990 and was baptized in 1998 at Our Lady of Fatima Church in Kuala Lumpur. Because she considered herself a Christian, Ms. Joy did not believe the Shariah courts applied to her. In an affidavit to a lower civil court in 2000, she said she felt “more peace in my spirit and soul after having become a Christian.”

Because of the death threats, including some calls to hunt her down, Mr. Dawson said, he could not say where she was, and could not make her available for an interview, even by telephone.

Similarly, her fiancé, whom Mr. Dawson referred to as Johnson, a Christian of ethnic Indian background whom Ms. Joy met in 1990, had received death threats and was not prepared to be interviewed.

Last month, Prime Minister Badawi appeared to side with the Islamists when he ordered that forums organized around the country to discuss religious freedom must stop. The forums, run by a group called Article 11, named after the section of the Constitution that says Malaysians are free to choose their religion, were disrupted on several occasions by Islamic protesters.

The chief organizer of the Article 11 forums, a well-known human rights lawyer, Malik Imtiaz Sarwar, a Muslim, received a death threat this month that was widely circulated by e-mail.

With the heading “Wanted Dead,” the message featured a photograph of Mr. Malik and said: “This is the face of the traitorous lawyer to Islam who supports the Lina Joy apostasy case. Distribute to our friends so they can recognize this traitor. If you find him dead by the side of the road, do not help.”

Mr. Malik, 36, who presented a brief in support of Ms. Joy to the Appeals Court, said he was seeking police protection. “We must not confuse the crucial distinction between a country in which the majority are Muslims, and is thus an Islamic country, and a country in which the supreme law is the Shariah, an Islamic state,” Mr. Malik said.

Conversions of Muslims to Christianity are not common in Malaysia, though most converts do not seek official approval for marriage and therefore do not run into the obstacles Ms. Joy confronted. One 38-year-old convert, who said in an interview at a Roman Catholic parish that he would provide only his Christian names, Paul Michael, and not his surname, for fear of retribution, described how he led a double life.

“Church members know us as who we are, and the outside world knows us as we were,” he said. He was fearful, he said, that if his conversion became public the religious authorities would come after him, and he could be sentenced to a religious rehabilitation camp.

One such place, hidden in the forest at Ulu Yam Baru, 20 miles outside the capital, is ringed like a prison by barbed wire, with dormitories protected by a second ring of barbed wire. Outside a sign says, “House of Faith,” and inside the inmates spend much of their time studying Islam.

Paul Michael said he and other former Muslims moved from church to church for services to avoid detection. They call themselves “M.M.B.B.,” for Malay Muslim Background Believers. “It’s a group of Malays who are no longer Muslims,” he said

[mcsluggo]

Kinda makes you glad that WE fight to keep the church and state seperated. No?

[FishForLunch]

If you ask me I would say no religion is a good thing, but thats just me.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by FishForLunch

If you ask me I would say no religion is a good thing, but thats just me.

Do you believe that their is no "God", and that this world was created by the Big Bang?

[FishForLunch]

I dont know about God, but the Big Bang theory seems somewhat logical.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by FishForLunch

I dont know about God, but the Big Bang theory seems somewhat logical.

The big Bang theory is just the opposite of logical. In fact, if you study it, it has more assumption and faith in the unknown than anything related to Creationism.

How can you get something from nothing?
Never be able to recreate today what supposedly happened then?
And defy known scientific principles, but still propose that it happened this way?

Logically something that is a much higher power than man, CREATED this world.

[FishForLunch]

If you believe that then it is your right. Both the theories are equally possible is guess, nobody knows.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by FishForLunch

If you believe that then it is your right. Both the theories are equally possible is guess, nobody knows.

I understand where you are coming from.
Believe it or not, I have had this debate before.

Both theories are not equally possible. One theory is possible, and one is impossible -- but still kept and taught because they have no other theory.

Science has disproved the Big Bang theory over and over. Religion didn't need to do that. The problem is, they have no other theory. Since they can't teach creationism because that would be admitting that we are not the most powerful beings in existance -- then they teach a farse that has been disproved by their own methodology.

Study Big Bang. You will realize that logically it can't work. Test it. Don't listen to preachers or anyone else -- study it out. It cannot be true the way that the Big Bang Theory is taught. I have done it because my father was a high school science teacher.

I am not trying to convince you to be any specific religion -- just to realize that God did create this world. The other alternative is that man is just a perchance happening, and only here till he dies or the next evolving happens. Either of which means their is no reason to ever act in a descent way (murderer or saint) because your life is totally meaningless.

Now I don't know about you, but I know that my life, and my childrens life have meaning. Now, I don't know all the answers, and No I cannot convince or convert anyone. I can only inform about the existance of God, and the forgiveness of Jesus. I can give a testamony of when he talked with me, and changed my life though.

[FishForLunch]

See I am not a Atheist, I just dont believe in organized religion. I feel that there is something supernatural, but since I cannot understand it, I personally choose to ignore it. My wife and children are religious I have no problem with that. I celebrate the holidays like everyone else in my family as a sort of custom or ritual, nothing more.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by FishForLunch

See I am not a Atheist, I just dont believe in organized religion. I feel that there is something supernatural, but since I cannot understand it, I personally choose to ignore it. My wife and children are religious I have no problem with that. I celebrate the holidays like everyone else in my family as a sort of custom or ritual, nothing more.

To an extent, I have to agree with you. Not the part about ignoring it, but the part about organized religion.

Let me give you an answer that a true bible pastor once gave me.
He asked: What is the difference between Religion and Christianity?

I gave him the usual church answer. He told me no.

He said all Religions: Baptist (of which I serve), Methodist, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, and all the rest; all say "You Need To" --- then they go off on a self-serving methodology that starts by them increasing themselves and building power for themselves.

In true Christianity: Jesus said "It is done". All he asks for is for a person to believe. He claims to be all-powerful, and needs nothing from you. He gave, and if you want to be like him you will stop being self-serving and start giving. He didn't profit. He also tells you that he will handle it - No need for you to try to with your strength.


Think about it. Don't ignore it. But, study logically and count the costs.

[dude1394]

I think Fish's life has meaning whether there's a god or not.

[untitled]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

How can you get something from nothing?

How can you get an omnipotent being from nothing?

The human mind cannot grasp eternity or infinity, so believing that said omnipotent being has always been would seem to require a similar, if not greater, level of assumption or faith in the unknown.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by untitled

How can you get an omnipotent being from nothing?

The human mind cannot grasp eternity or infinity, so believing that said omnipotent being has always been would seem to require a similar, if not greater, level of assumption or faith in the unknown.

thank you. You have proven my first point.

If you believe in the Big Bang theory, then that is your religion that you have to have FAITH in "the unknown". It is still faith in something that you have absolutely no clue about.

Now, as to it being a bigger faith to get omnipotent from Nothing -- flat out wrong. I never said we got omnipotent from nothing. My understanding is that God is the Alpha and the Omega. He is, and always was, and always will be. He was here before time and will always be.

Now, that is faith, I'll admit. I have a personal relationship with him though, so you can't convince me that he doesn't exist. It would be like trying to convince me that there is no such thing as love, because you can't see it. Somehow everyone knows about it, most have seen it -- it does exist, even if you can't grasp it. I know God because I asked him into my heart, and asked for him. He showed me that he exists in the stars, on the earth, and in the hearts of man. I spend time with him daily, and he has changed my life.

[Drbio]

dalm- That is one of the most outstanding posts that I have ever read.

Anywhere.


Ever.

[untitled]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

thank you. You have proven my first point.

If you believe in the Big Bang theory, then that is your religion that you have to have FAITH in "the unknown". It is still faith in something that you have absolutely no clue about.

Now, as to it being a bigger faith to get omnipotent from Nothing -- flat out wrong. I never said we got omnipotent from nothing. My understanding is that God is the Alpha and the Omega. He is, and always was, and always will be. He was here before time and will always be.

Now, that is faith, I'll admit. I have a personal relationship with him though, so you can't convince me that he doesn't exist. It would be like trying to convince me that there is no such thing as love, because you can't see it. Somehow everyone knows about it, most have seen it -- it does exist, even if you can't grasp it. I know God because I asked him into my heart, and asked for him. He showed me that he exists in the stars, on the earth, and in the hearts of man. I spend time with him daily, and he has changed my life.

That's all fine and good. I was merely pointing out that between the two options, I find the other to be more plausible than the one that the Baptist religion (the only one that I can truly speak for) preaches. At least, that's how I feel right now.

I used to believe all that stuff, was saved at age 13 or so, baptized by my father, etc. But over time I've encountered too many questions from/about cultural relativism, existentialism, Eastern religions, moral philosophy, and life experience to say that, for sure, THE God is the same that I used to believe in. It's not necessarily because I dislike or disliked the Baptists (although if I were to return to Christianity, it would be with another denomination), it's because I have no idea what 80% of earth's population believes in because either I've never been exposed to it or never studied it. As a result, I will make no declarative judgments about the rightness or wrongness of what anyone else believes until I feel that I've found THE philosophy for me.

It really came down to cultural relativism for me. How could I just go on living life, believing whatever I was taught just because my parents believed it? How do I know that their beliefs are right for me? Or anyone, for that matter?

If I was born one house down the street, I'd be mormon. One more house down, catholic. Across the street, who knows - muslim? Across the globe, just about anything BUT Christianity. Once I realized that my beliefs were so incredibly influenced by my specific situation I decided that I needed to take my beliefs more seriously and stop kidding myself.

So I continue to learn and build my own beliefs brick by brick. No fancy label, I'll be a mutt of religions and philosophies by the time I'm done learning (i.e. on my deathbed, hopefully in old age). A little bit of this, a little bit of that, but I will believe every inch of it, and I'll know every single reason why because those beliefs came from MY experience.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by untitled

That's all fine and good. I was merely pointing out that between the two options, I find the other to be more plausible than the one that the Baptist religion (the only one that I can truly speak for) preaches. At least, that's how I feel right now.

The other is no where near as plausible --- but you have to study it to find out.

I used to believe all that stuff, was saved at age 13 or so, baptized by my father, etc. But over time I've encountered too many questions from/about cultural relativism, existentialism, Eastern religions, moral philosophy, and life experience to say that, for sure, THE God is the same that I used to believe in. It's not necessarily because I dislike or disliked the Baptists (although if I were to return to Christianity, it would be with another denomination), it's because I have no idea what 80% of earth's population believes in because either I've never been exposed to it or never studied it. As a result, I will make no declarative judgments about the rightness or wrongness of what anyone else believes until I feel that I've found THE philosophy for me.

I wasn't saved quite that early in life, but I went to church till about age 12. Ran from the Lord to find out myself what was right, and what everyone was talking about. Did all the wrong things only to find out that people who loved me had told me the correct stuff to begin with.

It really came down to cultural relativism for me. How could I just go on living life, believing whatever I was taught just because my parents believed it? How do I know that their beliefs are right for me? Or anyone, for that matter?

My parents and I have weekly disputes/debates on religion. We take the time to study all of them to see who is right or wrong. Then we discuss them. My mother is avid in the bible, and me as well. My father is a retired science teacher. We have read and discussed the Mormon bible, the quaran, and several versions of the bible.

If you want the truth, then spend time Daily in the word, and pray every day for the Lord to show you TRUTH. If you ask, patiently, he will show you the truth.

If I was born one house down the street, I'd be mormon. One more house down, catholic. Across the street, who knows - muslim? Across the globe, just about anything BUT Christianity. Once I realized that my beliefs were so incredibly influenced by my specific situation I decided that I needed to take my beliefs more seriously and stop kidding myself.

Yes, you often are a victim of circumstance. When you get older, don't run from the Lord though, embrace him, and have him "show" you the answers. He will, if you ask, are diligent and patient, and seek him.

So I continue to learn and build my own beliefs brick by brick. No fancy label, I'll be a mutt of religions and philosophies by the time I'm done learning (i.e. on my deathbed, hopefully in old age). A little bit of this, a little bit of that, but I will believe every inch of it, and I'll know every single reason why because those beliefs came from MY experience.

I expect you will be a mutt of religions. I am. I do not forsake the getting together with my brothers, so I go to a Baptist church. I don't believe all they do though ( although they basically say the correct things - actions speak louder than words). I have left the church, and been to presbetyerian, methodist, catholic, church of Christ, and actually spent time in discussions with muslim, morman, jewish and episcopalian (sp?). I have even talked with and been in discussion with scientology and druid people. I have come back though, because I finally realized that it isn't about me, but about HIM.

Basically I am going to agree with you that none of them are 100% correct.

I am also going to suggest to you that you read and PRAY. The relationship though is 100 times greater than any religion, belief, or human. Start your relationship with Christ, and all the rest will fall in place no matter how you choose to worship. This I can guarentee.

[mavsangel]

Interesting on how a discussion about Muslim faith ended up in a discussion about Christianity. I think it points to the fundamental problem here. Religion defines our hearts as well as our minds and is something we feel strongly about whether it is the Big Bang or sharing our faith with our children. If we, who are having a discussion about the differences between organized relgion and faith can build fences in the course of a dialogue on a sports forum, how do we even begin to take down the walls between ourselves and a people who's faith, history and culture most of us neither understand nor care to understand?

[Usually Lurkin]

From the "all religions aren't the same" file.

http://www.meforum.org/article/998

Confronting Islamist Totalitarianism

Middle East Quarterly
Summer 2006

On October 22, 2005, the France 2 television talk show Tout le Monde en Parle aired an interview with writer Salman Rushdie and French actor and Islamist Sami Nacéri. Left on the cutting room floor was an ugly incident during taping when Nacéri accused Rushdie of debasing Islam. If an imam asked him to kill Rushdie, Nacéri went on, he would himself shoot the bullet into Rushdie's head. He then pantomimed firing a gun at Rushdie.

Philippe Val, editor of the French left-wing weekly Charlie Hebdo, described the omitted segment in the November 2 issue of the magazine. French reaction was minimal. While some journalists debated whether celebrities made appropriate commentators, there was little discussion of France 2's decision to delete the offending segment.

On February 28, 2006, in response to Nacéri's threat, France 2's censorship, and the decision of several newspapers not to publish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad, twelve prominent Muslim and non-Muslim intellectuals issued a manifesto first published on the French website Proche-Orient.info. The translation, replicated below, was later published in the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten. The willingness of prominent thinkers, both Muslim and non-Muslim, to stand together suggests that intellectuals recognize the totalitarian nature of Islamism and are determined not to cede terms of the societal debates to Islamists.

—The Editors

After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new totalitarian global threat: Islamism.

We, writers, journalists, intellectuals, call for resistance to religious totalitarianism and for the promotion of freedom, equal opportunity, and secular values for all.

The recent events, which occurred after the publication of drawings of Muhammed in European newspapers, have revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values. This struggle will not be won by arms but in the ideological field. It is not a clash of civilizations nor an antagonism of West and East that we are witnessing, but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats.

Like all totalitarianisms, Islamism is nurtured by fears and frustrations. The hate preachers bet on these feelings in order to form battalions destined to impose a liberticidal and unegalitarian world. But we clearly and firmly state: nothing, not even despair, justifies the choice of obscurantism, totalitarianism, and hatred. Islamism is a reactionary ideology, which kills equality, freedom, and secularism wherever it is present. Its success can only lead to a world of domination: man's domination of woman, the Islamists' domination of all the others. To counter this, we must assure universal rights to oppressed or discriminated people.

We reject "cultural relativism," which consists in accepting that men and women of Muslim culture should be deprived of the right to equality, freedom, and secular values in the name of respect for cultures and traditions. We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of "Islamophobia," an unfortunate concept which confuses criticism of Islam as a religion with stigmatization of its believers.

We plead for the universality of freedom of expression, so that a critical spirit may be exercised on all continents, against all abuses and all dogmas.

We appeal to democrats and free spirits of all countries that our century should be one of Enlightenment, not of obscurantism.

Signed:

Salman Rushdie, author, The Satanic Verses
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Somali-born Dutch MP
Taslima Nasreen, exiled Bangladeshi writer
Bernard-Henri Levy, French philosopher
Chahla Chafiq, exiled Iranian writer
Caroline Fourest, French writer
Irshad Manji, author, The Trouble with Islam
Mehdi Mozaffari, professor of political science, University of Aarhus
Maryam Namazie, producer, TV International English
Antoine Sfeir, editor, Cahiers de l'Orient
Ibn Warraq, author, Why I Am Not a Muslim
Philippe Val, editor, Charlie Hebdo

To receive articles regularly by emai

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by mavsangel

Interesting on how a discussion about Muslim faith ended up in a discussion about Christianity. I think it points to the fundamental problem here. Religion defines our hearts as well as our minds and is something we feel strongly about whether it is the Big Bang or sharing our faith with our children. If we, who are having a discussion about the differences between organized relgion and faith can build fences in the course of a dialogue on a sports forum, how do we even begin to take down the walls between ourselves and a people who's faith, history and culture most of us neither understand nor care to understand?

I've always been taught, never talk about Religion or Politics because they cause passionate and personal responses.

I simply refuse to hide under a bushel though - I'll let it shine.

[MavsX]

Could jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?

[untitled]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I've always been taught, never talk about Religion or Politics because they cause passionate and personal responses.

I simply refuse to hide under a bushel though - I'll let it shine.

I think more people would if they could just keep in mind that no one on this earth has the same experiences or internal wiring. We're all different. I look at your beliefs the way I would look at your preference for creamy peanut butter instead of chunky, it's just what you prefer (or in the case of beliefs, what makes sense to you). I know that beliefs are much more important than say, one's peanut butter preferences, but my point is that if you looked at others' beliefs as subjective, we'd all be more able to discuss what we believe. Besides, beliefs are merely how we interpret our existence, and we commonly allow different interpretations in how we see things at work, school, etc. so why not in this area too?

As long as no one makes judgments as to the moral reprehensibility of another's beliefs the discussion should be lively and enlightening. Easier said than done, I guess.

[Usually Lurkin]

More from the "all religions aren't the same" file: (this snippet was posted at the corner. More can be found here: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/soapbox/rehov.asp)


Suicide Killers [Cliff May]

From an interview with Pierre Rehov, a French documentary maker whose newest film, Suicide Killers, is based on interviews that he conducted with the families of suicide bombers and would-be bombers

Q - What was it like to interview would-be suicide bombers, their families and survivors of suicide bombings?

A - It was a fascinating and a terrifying experience. You are dealing with seemingly normal people with very nice manners who have their own logic, which to a certain extent can make sense since they are so convinced that what they say is true. … I hear a mother saying "Thank God, my son is dead." Her son had became a shaheed, a martyr, which for her was a greater source of pride than if he had became an engineer, a doctor or a winner of the Nobel Prize.

This system of values works completely backwards since their interpretation of Islam worships death much more than life. You are facing people whose only dream, only achievement goal is to fulfill what they believe to be their destiny, namely to be a Shaheed or the family of a shaheed.

They don't see the innocent being killed, they only see the impure that they have to destroy.

…

Q - Are suicide bombers principally motivated by religious conviction?

A - Yes, it is their only conviction. They don't act to gain a territory or to find freedom or even dignity. They only follow Allah, the supreme judge, and what He tells them to do.

The main difference between moderate Muslims and extremists is that moderate Muslims don't think they will see the absolute victory of Islam during their lifetime, therefore they respect other beliefs. The extremists believe that the fulfillment of the Prophecy of Islam and ruling the entire world as described in the Koran, is for today. Each victory of Bin Laden convinces 20 million moderate Muslims to become extremists. …

Q - How can we put an end to the madness of suicide bombings and terrorism in general?

A - Stop being politically correct and stop believing that this culture is a victim of ours. Radical Islamism today is nothing but a new form of Naziism. ..

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by UL

Q - How can we put an end to the madness of suicide bombings and terrorism in general?

Historically speaking: integration or annihilation.

Which one will work?

[dalmations202]

Here is how I feel.

http://www.windomnet.com/web/nls/InGodWeStillTrust.wmv