Licenses

[Chiwas]

[knowitall]

How do you feel about this, Chiwas?

[FishForLunch]

Become a Legal resident and then get your License. I had to go through years of dealing with those immigration assholes to become a legal resident. There is no free cheese in this country everyone has to follow rules.

[Usually Lurkin]

I don't get it.
Is it a pun on 'license' in order to mirror the play on 'rubber bullets'?

[Chiwas]

Tough topic, topics in fact.

It's like the narcotraffic. Without demand there is no offer. But I'd prefer to have some sort of register of both, narcotraficants and illegal inmigrants. There is no way for the first, and the driving licences would be one for the latter; in any way, they will be still driving their cars, as long as the demand persists.

The "license" to shoot the illegal Mexican inmigrants with rubber bullets was granted by our President without the permission of our Congress (the Senate, properly), without saying a word to the people.

Bad comparison of both issues by the cartoonist. But I thought of the 2008 elections inmediately when I saw it, and that it might hurt in some extent the Bush reelection.

[knowitall]

Yes, they will continue to drive. They have to support their families. Unfortunately, they will never be allowed to follow the rules. The nonexistant double standard. Their not racist, they just exclude certain people. Welcome to the USA.

[dude1394]

Illegal immigration needs to be dealt with but no one has the stones for it because the other will demagogue them to death about it. I just saw something I forget what station about someone passing a law in california stating that to vote you had to prove who you were.

The other said called that racist. I really don't know how we are going to get a handle on it. Unfortunately the only way it will probably get fixed is when it can be proven that some terrorist came in over the border and killed a bunch of people..

It's just got to be addressed but I don't see any party willing to do it.

[Mavdog]

I think this is what Chivas is talking about
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Mexicans Criticize U.S. Border Patrol’s Use of ‘Non-lethal’ Guns
by Andrew Kennis (bio)


Sep 10 - Outrage erupted in Mexico recently over revelations that the Mexican government had secretly approved a US Border Patrol plan to use "non-lethal" chemical weapons against undocumented immigrants crossing the US-Mexico border.

As images aired on Mexican television of US border agents in battle dress firing paint ball game-style rifles loaded with florescent plastic pepper pellets at targets, lawmakers condemned the program and demanded high level diplomacy on the issue. The circulated video also showed separate images of a Mexican lifting his T-shirt to reveal welts and bruises on his chest reported to be from pellet impacts, the Defence & Strategic News reports.

The controversial weapons, known as "pepper ball guns," use compressed gas to shoot pellets filled with a cayenne-derived powder, which is released on impact and severely irritates the eyes, nose and skin, sometimes causing welts or other serious injuries.

"They are using our Mexican countrymen as targets in a modern, almost festive hunt with rubber bullets," said Mexican lawmaker Cesar Camacho, a member of the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI).

US Border Patrol spokesperson Mario Villareal told The NewStandard that Border Patrol agents have used pepper ball guns 204 times since 2002. The Border Patrol insists that the weapons are intended only to be used in instances when immigration agents are in danger, not to prevent undocumented immigrants from entering the country.

When asked to provide figures on the number of injuries Border Patrol agents have sustained since they began using the pepper guns compared to when they did not have them, Villareal said he did not have such facts on hand. He also said he did not have information about comparisons between the use of live ammunition against undocumented immigrants before and after the use of the pepper ball guns.

Instead, Villareal told The NewStandard that the Border Patrol was "on the front line, protecting America's security from terrorists," and thus, he said, the use of pepper guns did not have to be justified with statistics.

In July, according to the Associated Press, Texas Border Patrol officials in El Paso purchased and distributed fourteen of the pepper-shooting guns at $300 each. The guns, first used by the US Border Patrol in 2001, are already part of what is called the Border Patrol's "non-lethal" weapon arsenal in Arizona and California.

Doug Mosier, another Border Patrol spokesman, told the AP that more guns will be purchased next year so that each of the twelve stations in New Mexico and far West Texas have two guns.

The Border Patrol apparently has the blessing of Mexican President Vicente Fox, who, according to the Mexico City daily La Jornada, agreed to the use of "non-lethal" weapons in bilateral meetings back in June 2001.

Controversy began in Mexico over the use of the weaponry when the Mexican Foreign Relations Ministry called the new purchase of additional pepper ball launchers an "alternative" to firearms in an August 10 press release.

The next day Mexican congressional representatives from all major parties, who say they were unaware of the 2001 accord until the Ministry press release, demanded in a letter that President Fox change his position and urged the US not to use any weapons against undocumented Mexicans crossing the border, calling the use of such weapons a flagrant violation of human rights, the San Francisco Chronicle reports.

Much of the Mexican media has also been incensed. A number of editorials have condemned Fox's approval of the pepper ball guns. La Jornada wrote a disparaging August 12 editorial, an excerpt of which was quoted and translated in the New York Times. Its most critical passage read:

Fox doesn't seem to understand that our compatriots that go to our neighboring country in search of work are not criminals but productive individuals that with their efforts are able to make an essential contribution to the US economy and also with their remittance payments, are able to maintain the Mexican economy as well, which is devastated by the ineptitude and the corruption of various consecutive Mexican Presidential administrations, including the present one. There is not, as a result, any reason to barrage our compatriots with whichever class of arms, lethal or not.

After demands that US officials meet with Mexican government officials for high-level diplomatic consultations on the issue, US Assistant Secretary of State Roger Noriega met with Mexican Ambassador Carlos de Icaza, an official at the US Embassy in Mexico confirmed to the AP.

The Bush administration has not addressed the issue in any significant way, but the president's Latino nephew, George P. Bush, called the Border Patrol's policy "reprehensible" while stumping for his uncle in Mexico, the AP reported last month. He tried to deflect blame from President Bush and instead faulted "some local [Immigration and Naturalization Service] guy who's trying to be tough, act macho."

The AP reports that Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez appeared in front of the Mexican Congress last month and announced that the Fox administration was going to consider helping afflicted victims of pepper ball launchers sue US officials for improper use of the weaponry. Derbez did clearly stop short, however, of meeting congressional demands to stop the practice altogether.

In the US, officials have sought to paint the matter as a mere mix-up, as many Mexican media outlets have translated the pepper guns as balas de goma which literally means "rubber bullets" in English. Rubber bullets, a different type of weapon, have been known to cause death or serious injury when fired at close range or if they hit vulnerable areas of body tissue.

Picking up on this theme, US Border Patrol spokesperson Gloria Chavez called the issue a mere "misunderstanding" and a case of "mass confusion." Chavez explained to the AP that the pepper ball guns were "always intended only to be used when there was a situation of danger, exclusively to prevent violent harm to the officer or others. It would seem that some people have assumed it would be used to stop people coming into the country."

Spokesperson Villareal said that two to three border agents die every year and that since Fiscal Year 2002, agents have been assaulted 604 times.

Nonetheless, no one has yet offered first hand evidence, such as interviews with victims of actual pepper ball shootings, to either prove or disprove official claims that the guns are only used in self-defense and have not caused any serious injuries.

[dude1394]

Looks to me like he's griping about arnold not giving drivers licenses to illegals to me.

[Mavdog]

dude, it is a play on license. translates like this:

what injustice! we gave license to you to shoot our migrants with rubber bullets.

[dude1394]

ah....

[Usually Lurkin]

I thought the whole uproar in Mexico was over a bad translation of "pepper pellets". "Rubber bullets" (balas de goma) are something else, and though safer than real bullets, can be dangerous. Pepper pellets cause bruising, but it sounds like they are just paint balls filled with pepper spray.

I really don't understand why anyone would object to the use of paintballs in these cases. We absolutely have to stop someone who is trying to get into our country unnoticed, and this is a safe way, making it possible to ask them who they are (and if they are planning on blowing anything up) after they are stopped.

As far as giving licenses to illegal immigrants: They are illegal. They shouldn't have a lot of legal rights here, because they refuse to be recognized as even being here. It doesn't matter what race they are. They are not paying taxes. They are not reporting crimes. They are not registered in the proper databases so that we could track their residency. They started their residency here by breaking the law. If they would stand up and be counted, then they would get the benefits of US residency/citizenship. They might even become governor of a state in the union. Until then, it's not fair.

[Mavdog]

I don't believe that citizenship should be a prerequisite for having a driver's license. The license is a permit to drive a motor vehicle and is evidence of meeting the qualifications for driving a vehicle. What does that have to do with where the person is a citizen?

Yes, illegal immigrants do pay taxes. They pay rent, which pays the property taxes. They purchase goods and services, and they pay taxes on those as well. Reporting crimes? If they wouldn't have a fear of the police, I would expect they would do that as well.

[MavKikiNYC]

Wasn't a large part of the issue with issuing drivers licenses to illegal immigrants that the licenses could then be used as the basis for OTHER government-issued documents, for some government benefits, and for voter registration even? Wasn't it also an issue that authorities found that very, very few (practically none) illegal immigrants maintained liability insurance on their vehicles?

If this is correct, then there is a larger system problem that has to be addressed to prevent fraud and security compromises. I find it hard to believe that the lack of a driver's license is going to deter an illegal immigrant from driving, so I'm not sure that issuing licenses outweighs the cost of increased fraud, illegal voter registration, and illegally claiming governnent benefits. Until a driver's license no longer represents an access card to citizenship benefits, then I think it's probably wiser that they not be as freely issued.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
Yes, illegal immigrants do pay taxes. They pay rent, which pays the property taxes. They purchase goods and services, and they pay taxes on those as well. Reporting crimes? If they wouldn't have a fear of the police, I would expect they would do that as well.

Yeah. good one. I'll try that next April.
Point being: anyone doing something illegal fears getting caught.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Mavdog
I don't believe that citizenship should be a prerequisite for having a driver's license. The license is a permit to drive a motor vehicle and is evidence of meeting the qualifications for driving a vehicle. What does that have to do with where the person is a citizen?

Yes, illegal immigrants do pay taxes. They pay rent, which pays the property taxes. They purchase goods and services, and they pay taxes on those as well. Reporting crimes? If they wouldn't have a fear of the police, I would expect they would do that as well.

If you don't okay. However you then have to come up with another mechanism for ensuring legality. If you want to have everyone in the us have an id card and then have that reflected on their drivers license okay.

HOWEVER...

I don't really see why an illegal immigrant should be granted a "license" to operate a car in this country. I really don't care much about what they do/do not do but being outside the law and the system it would seem logical that there is a better than zero chance that they would either be taken advantage of, or skirt and break the law in other ways.

The real problem is how to do it. I'm starting to think it needs to be a combination of a work-program that bush promoted BUT at the same time (or closely after) have no-bs crackdown on illegals coming across the border and very stiff jail time for employers. In fact the employers is probably the only way to do it.

[Chiwas]

I don't remember their names, but some congressman (or women) had (or have) illegal workers at home. It was in the news few years ago. I think also Barbara Bush had them, or other First Lady.

A report about the RNC at New York said that half of the workers preparing it were illegal.

I have some friends working (illegal migrants) as foremen or administrators in ranches in Oklahoma and Colorado.

And so forth.

Just the word "illegal" for this matter, therefore, is inappropriate. The American society has, in my opinion, validated through a custom, the opposite character.

[dude1394]

I think Linda Chavez's nomination was derailed because of it. I actually thought she was sort of just providing a place for the person to live.

I understand what you are saying and don't completely disagree that we have a pretty crappy double-standard and hypocrisy going on throughout this society. We talk big and bad about illegals but aren't willing to do much about it. But personally, I don't buy it. I would be more than willing to arrest, jail for a long time employers who hire illegal aliens.

I think there are a couple of things that are touted that I don't agree with.
1. That there are jobs that other americans will not want to do. I think that's bull-honkey as if they don't want to do it, then they either won't get done or the pay will rise to a level where they WILL want to do it. The only issue is getting them done "cheaply".
2. So that brings up number 2. A legitimate guest worker program would alleviate that imho.

Chiwas, what did you think about bush's guest-worker strategy? He took quite a bashing from conservatives about it.

[LRB]

I can't believe that anyone would seriously argue that drivers licenses should be issued to illega immigrants. I have no problem with legal immigrants getting licenses. But if immagrants are illegal, then they should have no rights except to be deported unless they can make a convincing case as to why they should have political assylum.

That said, our policy of issuing work visas with mexico is a sad and pathetic mess of corruption. This needs to be fixed. Our economy depends a great deal on the relative cheap labor provided by immigrants from south of our border. We need to provide a working and noncorrupt method for these people to legally enter our country to do work that we need. Unlike immigrants from some other countries who take skilled and professional jobs away from Americans, by and large hispanic immigrants take jobs that are undesireable to Americans and which we are quite frankly too damn lazy to do. I've know hundreds of hispanic illegal immigrants, and by and large the vast majority wish nothing more than to work hard and honestly. However there is a vast system of corruption which makes it vitually impossible for the majority to legally gain status to work here. We have a two-faced system on immigrants. We know that we need them, but it's not politically expedient to make a way for the legally to be here. It's also not politically expedient for us to shut down the borders. This policy needs to change.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Chiwas
Just the word "illegal" for this matter, therefore, is inappropriate. The American society has, in my opinion, validated through a custom, the opposite character.

A lot of people cheat on their taxes or steal candy. That doesn't make it legal, and it doesn't mean it should be legal.

There are ways to get work visas, and I don't have a problem with making it easier - if that's possible. Whatever happens, though, letting people just run across the border anonymously is a stupid idea. If a border patrol agent sees an unidintified person crossing into the U.S., hidden in the cover of darkness, that agent should be able to use something as innocuous as a paint ball to try to stop them.

I hardly think it's fair, though, to start rewarding those who do cross illegally when there are thousands (millions) who are waiting through the process of legal entry.

[Chiwas]

Chiwas, what did you think about bush's guest-worker strategy?

It would have been -it still can be, in the next future- the first step for a more formal and structured plan to integrate our economies within NAFTA, or within a more advanced agreement, to counter the EU or the Asian economic forces, as it was originally thought -or envisioned- by George H. W. Bush.

I want to add that it is not my wish to discuss furthermore the issue of the "illegal migration", that has its origins in the lack of capacity of our country to retain its citizens with a dignified job and good life conditions. Although the issue has many points to be discussed or analized once the "wetbacks" cross the border as well, first of all I appreciate that many of my countrymen have become legal residents of the US or at least have found a decent job there as "illegals". There are some injustices on the process, but I think it is not the general practice. For this, I have a feeling of appreciation to your country.

I don't like Arnold Manyletters, but I like the USA in a general sense.