Role Players on Short Leash - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 02-14-2003, 03:10 PM

at the very least, if he is "average" and everyone else is sooo bad, well, it still makes sense to have him or griff in the game.
it's better to have some defense in there as opposed to no defense

and besides, the mavs offense would probably develop more continuity having less scorers on the court

Simon2 · 02-14-2003, 03:31 PM

I think Raja Bell is an above average defender. He will stick to his man and get under his skin. Everytime, a point guard, shooting guard or small forward starts going off on the other team, the Mavs should immediately place Bell on the guy. Here's the problem, once a small guy gets hot on the other team, Nellie's reaction is not to try to stop him but to place another shooter (NVE or Walt W) so the other guy needs to play defense. The problem is that the new shooter is usually a poor defender and he doesn't get the ball anyway since Nash, Dirk or Finley is taking the majority of the shots. So, the opposing player continues to stay hot.

Don't even get me started on Nellie going away from the hot hand. Nellie has this very weird habit of going away from what works and trying to get the "cold" hand hot. But that's another post...

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 03:32 PM

MFFL... I guess I want more average defenders on my team if those "average" defenders can guard 3 positions... and 3 positions very well.

Murphy3 · 02-14-2003, 03:33 PM

simon, good post
nothing infuriates me more than to see dirk or fin drill 3 shots in a row and then not touch the ball for 6 minutes

earlier in the year against chicago, dirk drilled his first three attempts early in the first quarter but didn't get another attempt until the second half of the game

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 04:03 PM

<< MFFL... I guess I want more average defenders on my team if those "average" defenders can guard 3 positions... and 3 positions very well. >>

I want the big three to be average defenders. I want the other two positions to be exceptional defenders (ala Christie from the Kings). Raja's defense is not good enough to overcome his offensive liabilities.

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 05:12 PM

<< I want the big three to be average defenders. >>

Dirk already is an average defender. But at this point Finley won't ever be. Especially when he is asked to play small forward.

<< I want the other two positions to be exceptional defenders (ala Christie from the Kings). Raja's defense is not good enough to overcome his offensive liabilities. >>

Yeah I want the other two to be good defenders as well. But then again, Nellie won't play them at crirical times in the game so it is a moot point.

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 05:58 PM

<< Yeah I want the other two to be good defenders as well. But then again, Nellie won't play them at crirical times in the game so it is a moot point. >>

I don't think you see my point. We have never had a player here whose defensive skills are so dominating that his offense is unimportant. If Rodman in his prime was here, Nellie would play him 30+ minutes a night.

Since none of our "merry mininums" are dominating defenders then we need some offense from them.

Charlie Brown · 02-14-2003, 06:12 PM

I disagree that the Mavs need dominating defensive players to win the championship, although it obviously wouldn't hurt. Most teams tend to hold on to their own defensive stoppers anyway, so it would be difficult find these dominating defensive players. I honestly do not think the Mavs are that far away from the Kings and the Lakers. And I believe staying away from small ball and playing our best defensive players will help us get even closer.

The idea of playing guys like Raja, Bradley, Najera, etc. helps us two-fold. One, it helps us defensively relatively to guys like NVE and Walt. Two, it allows the rest of the players to stay at their original positions.

Playing guys like NVE has a huge ripple effect on the team defensively. Not only does NVE's horrible defense hurt us, but it forces guys like nash and finley to guard bigger players, which hurts even more. Further, it makes Dirk the sole player to get offensive rebounds, which is really difficult, considering he's usually out on the perimeter anyway. No matter how good your offense is, if you're taking only shot every time down the court while the other team is getting second and third chance opportunities, the percentages do not play in your favor defensively AND OFFENSIVELY. I honestly can't believe that Nelson really thinks this small ball lineup works.

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 06:25 PM

<< Since none of our "merry mininums" are dominating defenders then we need some offense from them. >>

And that thinking is what is causing Nellie to lose in big games. You don't have to have "dominating" defenders. At this point all Nellie needs to do is leave his best defenders on the court for longer stretches.

If you want to become a good defensive team you can go about it a couple of ways:

1) You can have 1 or 2 dominant defenders
2) You can have 4 or 5 average defenders

Now then, most good teams have a dominant defender.. but do we? I say yes. Raja is our dominant defender. Is he in the class or Christie? No. But Raja, like I said can guard 3 positions, and very well. Then Dirk has become an average defender this year. Najera is an average defender. Finley and Nash are very poor, but both of them suffer from playing out of position.

c: Dirk (average defender)
pf: Najera (average defender)
sf: Raja (dominant defender)
sg: Fin (borderline average when a sg)
pg: Nash (borderline average when playing pg)

So out of that group, we couldn't be a good defensive team? Nellie doesn't believe but Nellie won't give that lineup the time of day because of the offense. Even though the offense will be fine with Dirk, Fin and Nash in there... and Najera gets a lot of putbacks and cuts.

Or how about:
c: Bradley (poor one on one but excellent helpside)
pf: Dirk (average defender)
sf: Raja (dominant defender)
sg: Fin (borderline average)
pg: Nash (borderline average)

So out of that group we couldn't be a good defensive team? Nellie doesn't believe they would be. And he'd hate it that only Dirk, Fin and Nash are "scorers".

But the two lineups I just mentioned would be effective on both sides of the ball against the Elite. But Nellie won't play them extended minutes. And we will lose because of unwillingness to play some defensive people.

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 10:09 PM

<< Raja is our dominant defender. >>

Raja is NOT a dominant defender. Dominant defenders do not get released. Dominant defenders do not have to play overseas for a year because they can't get a job in the NBA. Dominant defenders do not sign a mininum salary contract.

Raja is the best we have, but he is an average NBA defender.

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 10:19 PM

<< Raja is NOT a dominant defender. Dominant defenders do not get released. >>

Then by your definition Christie is not a dominant defensive player. He has bounced around the league as much as Raja ever has....

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 10:24 PM

Christie has played in the NBA every season. He is earning 5.7 mil this season, 6.5 mil next season, then 7.1 mil, and 7.8 mil. That is hardly the NBA mininum.

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 10:25 PM

Or by your definition Ben Wallace is not a dominant defender. He was given up on several times (once by Boston in training camp).

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 10:28 PM

Again, Wallace has played in the NBA every season. He also is making a ton of money - I'll look it up if you need me to.

Murphy3 · 02-14-2003, 10:29 PM

mffl, obviously a solid defensive big man is worth more than a solid defensive little man

madape · 02-14-2003, 10:30 PM

Raja Bell a dominant defender? Hahahahah. Ok, whatever.

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 10:30 PM

<< Raja is NOT a dominant defender. Dominant defenders do not get released. Dominant defenders do not have to play overseas for a year because they can't get a job in the NBA. >>

Maybe if I had put an AND in there instead.

Dominant defenders do not get released AND have to play overseas for a year because they can't get a job in the NBA.

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 10:31 PM

And once again you keep expanding it.

Because I have already brought up two dominant defensive players that do not hold true to your definition. Yet you are now expanding it to money and or time served.

Let me asked you this: if Christie would've stayed in Lakerland Knickland... would he have still been dominant? He wouldn't be making not nearly as much money as he does now. But I say yes he would be just as dominant. The same for Wallace.

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 10:31 PM

<< mffl, obviously a solid defensive big man is worth more than a solid defensive little man >>

Isn't Christie a swing man?

MFFL · 02-14-2003, 10:32 PM

<< And once again you keep expanding it. >>

WTF?

What did I expand? Did Wallace or Christie have to play overseas for a year? Are they making more than the mininum?

Bayliss · 02-14-2003, 10:35 PM

Let me asked you this: if Christie would've stayed in Lakerland Knickland... would he have still been dominant? He wouldn't be making not nearly as much money as he does now. But I say yes he would be just as dominant. The same for Wallace.

But what does the salary have to do with dominance? If salary determined dominance than Raef would be all- NBA first team.

madape · 02-14-2003, 10:46 PM

Bell is an average defensive player. Before he came here, no one thought much of his defensive abilities. In fact, he was conisdered pretty much a spare all the way around. Now that he's with the Mavs, he's taken over for Adrian Griffin in foolish fans calls for defense. The truth is, he is probably better than any of the big three defensively, but in no way is he dominant.. or even good. He has a role on this team only because he is an average defensive player on a team with very very bad defensive players.

My definition of a dominant player is someone who's presense has an immediate impact on the game. Raja is the invisible man. Most of the time you can't even tell he's on the court. He certainly has never altered a game with his dominant defensive play. That's just a joke.

One thing that Mavericks fans need to realize is that just because you are bad on offense, it doesn't mean you are good on defense. There are plenty of players who are bad at both ends. Adrian Griffin is certainly one of those types of players. Bell is close.