why dr. jack is an idiot - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

aexchange · 02-21-2002, 10:42 PM

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/ramsa...k/1338282.html

1. he tries to tell us la frentz isn't much of an upgrade over howard. and that he's not more of a center than howard is.

2. he says that eduardo najera backs up finley. what crack has he been smoking and where can i get some?

madape · 02-21-2002, 10:43 PM

I've lost what little respect that I had for the "Doctor"

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 10:51 PM

lafrentz isn't a true center, ...however, he is an upgrade offensively and defensively..in every sense of the word over howard.
no, he's not a shut down center...not at all..but he's a huge upgrade

MavKikiNYC · 02-21-2002, 11:02 PM

Break it down, Murph.

Where do you see him clearly better than Juwan, and how is that going to fit in with current personnel, and against opponent matchups?

Drbio · 02-21-2002, 11:09 PM

He is clearly faster than Howard, a better three point shooter, will draw out the opponents big man better than Howard, and plays harder (IMO). LaFrentz can hit from 3 point land and actually has an arch to his shot. Howard shot those worm-burning flat bullets that often clanged off the rim. Just my $0.02

Doc

Bayliss · 02-21-2002, 11:09 PM

Well, he's 6'11" with long arms. That alone makes him better than Howard.

He can hit the three pointer consistency. That alone makes him better than Howard.

He can block shots. That alone makes him better than Howard.

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:09 PM

neither are that effective against many PF's or Centers defensively... however, lafrentz does have the ability to block shots. That's why I give him an edge defensively.
What does this help? Well, the mavs have alot of problems with penetrating guards and small forwards. With Lafrentz's ability to block shots from the weak side..this instantly helps the mavs against any opponent. Is he a defensive stopper? No, but he is an upgrade.
Offensively, he is the second or third best three point shooter on the team when he comes in.
Nash
Lafrentz
Dirk
Finley
VanExel
the mavs will have the ability to spread opponents out even more. With Howard, many opponents weren't that worried about him. By doubling dirk when he drives, it will LaFrentz will have open looks and will be able to knock down the 14 footer on out...
juwan, with the exception of maybe 2 weeks, provided very little on the offense on the inside.
LaFrentz doesn't necessarily provide scoring on the inside..however, with him further opening up the offense..the mavs will have more room to drive and more shooters open from behind the arc.

With Juwan gone, i also see dirk getting the opportunity to post up more. This also instantly makes the mavs better.

sorry, i don't see alot of downside from the trade

Epitome22 · 02-21-2002, 11:12 PM

Lafrentz is better defensivly because of the shot blocking presence.

Offensivly, he's better from the perimeter but not as much of a post presence as Howard. Howard's an 18/8 guy and Lafrentz is a 15/8 guy.

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:19 PM

yeah..howard was an 18-8 guy...back in 98-99
that's been awhile..can we move past that and look at what he was doing for the mavs?
defensively?... nothing whatsoever
offensively, stagnates the offense and shot poorly this year...

sorry, i'm not gonna look back 3-5 years to see what the guy used to do back when he was basically all that washington had...sorry,..i don't really buy that.

I will look at what he has done the past 2-3 years..what is that?
he's been an average to below average shooter recently.
he was an average rebounder this year but below average for his career and for the past three years.
He can't block shots or play man-to-man defense

i'm sorry...with the exception of a couple of good weeks..he did absolutely nothing for the mavs this year

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:26 PM

let me ask a question?
is a low post presence like howard..that can do nothing else offensively other than post up...is that good for the mavs offense?

the offense often grew stagnant when posting to juwan..there was no movement and he rarely passed once he got the ball on the low block. The mavs become more athletic and are able to shoot the ball better.. I think that fits perfectly with the mavs offense. Also, he's better defensively than howard..

Is it the trade to push the mavs into the NBA finals?... well, the mavs were one of the 3-4 best teams in the NBA and they just got better. However, will they make it to the finals? I don't know...that's why they play the games

could someone else help the mavs more? yes, of course. However, could they have made a trade that was a better trade for the mavs? Probably not, or it would have been made

Epitome22 · 02-21-2002, 11:27 PM

Howard didn't stagnate the offense. Just recently he learned how to work in it. It's not as if Juwan has lost anything sicne a couple of years ago. Offensivly the guy's a solid player, and as ugly as his jump-shot is he honestly isn't that bad of a mid range jump shooter. Heck against the Lakers he was draining 18 footers. Juwan just never really got into a rhythm with the Mavs, at least not until it was too late. Perhaps he wasn't a good fit for the Mavs, that stuff happens, doesen't negate what he's capable of. As far as defense goes he is not the best low post defender but until recently as he is now traded he was the best one the Mavs had. He's alot tougher inside than Dirk is and you'd never see Dirk guarding Shaq while Howard was on the court at the same time. To be honest, I never rag on any Maverick/former Maverick defensivly because they all suck with the exception of Nash who is an average defender. Juwan doesen't have Dirk's size or speed but he certainly had better defensive instincts.

Epitome22 · 02-21-2002, 11:32 PM

Not to mention that Juwan was also a fairly decent offensive rebounder.

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:34 PM

there's one reason why howard guarded certain players on defense.. because the mavs wanted to keep dirk out of foul trouble. they didn't want their leading scorer to be on the bench.

howard, if he couldn't figure out how to work in this offense, well, the he didn't fit in here.

yes, he can be an OK offensive player for some team..but not here. he simply didn't fit into the system.

and to be honest, dirk guarded shaq for a good part of the time this year.
don't you remember the mavs using dirk to front shaq and using a help side defender to double up?

sorry, but the mavs offense didn't flow when juwan was getting the ball in the low post. His style was counter productive to everything else the mavs did offensively

Epitome22 · 02-21-2002, 11:43 PM

No, I never even saw Dirk guard Shaq. I think the 53 point butt whooping Tim Duncan laid on Dirk at the Alamodome left a lasting impression on Nellie. Nellie had Juwan guarding Shaq at the Airline Center because even the slightly undersized Power Forward frame of Howard at least didn't let himself get manhandled as much as Dirk did trying to front the post against Duncan.

I don't wanna argue forever, Howard has a another uniform now. Let's just agree to disagree.

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:46 PM

actually, howard was also matched up against duncan for a good percentage of that game.

if you will remember before the previous game against the lakers, the mavs used dirk to front shaq and had helpside defense double up..

MavKikiNYC · 02-21-2002, 11:46 PM

So defensively, LaFrentz can block shots (which is what Mavs got from Bradley last year). He may take the other team's better low post player to conserve Dirk's energy for offense (which is what Howard did this year), but he doesn't really offer a muscular inside presence. Someone said he has a nasty streak? Great. (Dan Issel thought he was soft.) But can he/will he fight Malone and Shaq for low post defensive position? There's not a stat for that, but Howard seemed to do it pretty well. Shawn has a bit of a nasty streak, but really doesn't have the bod to back it up. Teams at least had the memory of Howard laying out Derek Anderson and later Antonio Daniels (and this year that Indiana PG) to consider when they took the ball inside. (Neither of those fouls was as egregious or serious as righteous commentators made them out to be, but Juwan did the time and everybody took note.) Oh yeah, and LaFrentz will rebound at about 7.5 a game where Juwan was grabbing 7.4.

Offensively, his contribution is expected to be mainly as a perimeter and occasional 3-point threat? Nothing high-percentage from inside 8 feet? No baby hook? Will they all just stand out around the arc and hoist 3s? I hope they hit a higher percentage of 3s, because otherwise there may not be anybody underneath for the ball. Can he provide screens and picks like Laettner did last year, and like Howard did? Can he pass the ball from the high post like Laettner? Will he boost his 1.4 APG up to say the 1.8 APG that Howard was providing?

Statistically, this trade doesn't change things much. So why is it a blockbuster? In terms of intangibles, I'll be curious to see if the team stumbles while trying to work Fin back in from an injury (although thankfully he looked great tonight) and then incorporate a totally new player into the offense.

Of course I WANT this trade to work out well for the Mavericks, and it'll be great if LaFrentz, surrounded by better players, elevates his game and develops and diversifies his offensive arsenal like Dirk has. But something tells me it may be more difficult for him to do so if he's having to compete against Dirk and Fin (not to mention NVE) for shots. LaFrentz is by all accounts a skill-player, which leaves me wondering....

Who's gonna do the dirty work?

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:49 PM

sorry, but i failed to see howard doing any dirty work defensively..
i failed to see him do anything defensively that will make the mavs regret trading him.

he was so slow footed that any player with a spin move would get to the basket. he couldn't jump high enough to contest a shot..let alone block provide many blocks...

lafrentz is simply an upgrade..

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:50 PM

i can agree to disagree for now.
however, let's watch a few games...and then we can get back to the argument..
however, right now..it does no good to argue something like this. you're right, there isn't a stat that really tells the true tail defensively..

let's watch a few games and get back to this one

MavKikiNYC · 02-21-2002, 11:50 PM

"..is a low post presence like howard..that can do nothing else offensively other than post up...is that good for the mavs offense?"

Yes, yes, hell yes. Isn't that what people on here have been preaching all week? Wasn't that why some posters were all gung-ho about Rasheed Wallace? That is exactly what they need to make the outside guys that much more dangerous.

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:54 PM

"is a low post presence like howard..."
that's my point. I simply don't think he provides much on the inside. The mavs will have more of an inside presence now that he's gone than they did while he was here.
dirk will be posted up more, that will be a significant help..and lafrentz can provide some inside presence offensively..not his strong point..but i believe the combination will be more than what the mavs had.

i agree that bringing in a pure scorer like webber or shaq would obviously help the mavs..but juwan wasn't an answer on the inside... this is simply a better answer to the mavs current situation

MavKikiNYC · 02-21-2002, 11:55 PM

You're right, Murph. Better to give him 12-15 games or so to see what his game looks like in the context of Nellie's system.

But let's also suspend judgments like "'He's simply an upgrade." until we see him handle himself against Webber, Duncan, Wallace, Malone et al in the intensity of a playoff or high-pressure game. Howard had demonstrated that he could withstand the pressure and contribute to Mavericks wins.

LaFrentz should get his opportunity as well.

Murphy3 · 02-21-2002, 11:58 PM

i don't think howard contributed much for the mavs...more of a failure this year than anything else..

however, i agree to give it 15 games..and we can take a look back at it

right now, we won't solve anything and won't be able to prove either of us wrong or right..
and that takes alot of the fun out of it