Texas - I love living here!!!

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

An "easy solution" would be, not to leave the house (like the dispatcher urged Horn) and shoot the burglars if they try to get in your house...

Agreed, and this is the imminent danger law protection provided to families.

As to the Deadly force to Protect Private property.........to me this is a very grey area.

I want to be able to protect my home/business if their is a power outage from every hooligan who wants to steal all my "life" just because of some natural disaster or riot.

On the other hand, IMO, just property is not worth taking a life. I myself would have called the police, and then got descriptions, plate numbers if they were to drive away, etc if they were stealing from my neighbor, and hoped the police could get the property back.

If I knew my neighbors 13 year old daughter were home alone, I might even shoot them.
If they broke into my home, they just shouldn't have.

To say I would have gone outside and created a situation which put my life in danger. Nope. That was just stupid. What if he would have shot one of them, but the other would have shot him. Too many unknown variables for something I can go buy.

[Underdog]

Personally, I don't have a problem with castle laws (everyone should have the right to defend themselves), I just don't think it was justified in this case:


Horn decided to kill those men while he was on the phone with the cops, not after they crossed into his yard - that's premeditation... Plus, if I'm in a situation where I HAVE to kill someone, I'm not calling the cops until afterward, since obviously I'm busy dealing with a life-and-death situation... If there's time to chat with the cops, maybe there's time to wait for them...

He claims he was "scared & feared for his life," even though nobody was breaking into HIS house and HIS life was never put into danger until AFTER he decided to confront those men... He also couldn't be protecting the lives of his neighbors, since he didn't notice the thieves until they were crawling OUT of the house...

Essentially, he killed 2 men over $2000 (that wasn't his) while NOBODY'S life (especially his own) was immediately in danger - which is exactly why the POLICE told him not to do it!

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

An "easy solution" would be, not to leave the house (like the dispatcher urged Horn) and shoot the burglars if they try to get in your house...

and then tell your neighbor, "sorry dude, I saw the guys rob your house, and I could have stopped them, but I decided to let them get away." So the next time those guys return to the neighborhood and choose MY house to rob while I'm not home, what incentive will my neighbor have to help me out? None. He'll return the same favor of just watching and letting the criminals get away.

It's easy to sit here on a chatboard and second guess Horn. If I were in his shoes, it's hard to say if I would have gone outside or not. Based on what I know about me, I would probably go outside too, because I believe we owe it to each other to protect our neighborhood. I would help my neighbors, as I would hope they would help me.

To Horn, here are the unknowns at that moment:

1) Are these guys armed?
2) How long will it take for the cops to arrive? (Horn didn't know the plain clothes cop was there)
3) If I don't do my civic duty to stop them, how many more houses will they rob?

Horn didn't go outside and just start shooting. He told them to stop. He warned the burgulars. He told them what he would do if they disregarded his warning. The law clearly allows for deadly force to prevent a criminal from fleeing the scene of the crime (as posted by dalmations202). Is that a death penalty for every crime? No, it depends on the circumstances and the choices the criminal makes when looking down the barrel of a gun. When a man is pointing a shotgun at you, how stupid do you have to be to try and run???

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by jefelump

and then tell your neighbor, "sorry dude, I saw the guys rob your house, and I could have stopped them, but I decided to let them get away." So the next time those guys return to the neighborhood and choose MY house to rob while I'm not home, what incentive will my neighbor have to help me out? None. He'll return the same favor of just watching and letting the criminals get away.

It's easy to sit here on a chatboard and second guess Horn. If I were in his shoes, it's hard to say if I would have gone outside or not. Based on what I know about me, I would probably go outside too, because I believe we owe it to each other to protect our neighborhood. I would help my neighbors, as I would hope they would help me.

To Horn, here are the unknowns at that moment:

1) Are these guys armed?
2) How long will it take for the cops to arrive? (Horn didn't know the plain clothes cop was there)
3) If I don't do my civic duty to stop them, how many more houses will they rob?

Horn didn't go outside and just start shooting. He told them to stop. He warned the burgulars. He told them what he would do if they disregarded his warning. The law clearly allows for deadly force to prevent a criminal from fleeing the scene of the crime (as posted by dalmations202). Is that a death penalty for every crime? No, it depends on the circumstances and the choices the criminal makes when looking down the barrel of a gun. When a man is pointing a shotgun at you, how stupid do you have to be to try and run???

The bolded is not accurate. You're only allowed to use deadly force if they are fleeing the scene of a crime on your property.

And the whole "civic dutry to protect our neighborhood" stuff is bs. Police protect our neighborhoods. People that are trained to answer the "unknowns" that you listed, and make the decision regarding deadly force.

Protecting your neighborhood with your gun is the way it worked in the 1800's. It's not necessary anymore, unless you are in actual danger.

I find it interesting that arguments like this generally find conservatives on the side of "screw them, they deserved to die" and when arguing abortion, conseratives argue that all life is sacred. Very hypocritical.

I'm a conservative that believes in the value of life. I'm against abortion and I'm against people having the right to gun down someone running away with their rolex.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jefelump

and then tell your neighbor, "sorry dude, I saw the guys rob your house, and I could have stopped them, but I decided to let them get away." So the next time those guys return to the neighborhood and choose MY house to rob while I'm not home, what incentive will my neighbor have to help me out? None. He'll return the same favor of just watching and letting the criminals get away.

My neighbor is Hindu, so she probably believes that if I let the thieves go, karma would protect my house and punish them for stealing from her...

(but I guess everyone has a different method for dealing with adversity...)

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by jefelump

and then tell your neighbor, "sorry dude, I saw the guys rob your house, and I could have stopped them, but I decided to let them get away." So the next time those guys return to the neighborhood and choose MY house to rob while I'm not home, what incentive will my neighbor have to help me out? None. He'll return the same favor of just watching and letting the criminals get away.

It's easy to sit here on a chatboard and second guess Horn. If I were in his shoes, it's hard to say if I would have gone outside or not. Based on what I know about me, I would probably go outside too, because I believe we owe it to each other to protect our neighborhood. I would help my neighbors, as I would hope they would help me.

To Horn, here are the unknowns at that moment:

1) Are these guys armed?
2) How long will it take for the cops to arrive? (Horn didn't know the plain clothes cop was there)
3) If I don't do my civic duty to stop them, how many more houses will they rob?

Horn didn't go outside and just start shooting. He told them to stop. He warned the burgulars. He told them what he would do if they disregarded his warning. The law clearly allows for deadly force to prevent a criminal from fleeing the scene of the crime (as posted by dalmations202). Is that a death penalty for every crime? No, it depends on the circumstances and the choices the criminal makes when looking down the barrel of a gun. When a man is pointing a shotgun at you, how stupid do you have to be to try and run???

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jefelump again.

nice logic, and well thought out. I can't agree to go outside though, unless he thought that someone else's life might be in jeopardy. To take a life for property seems kind of pointless. I have not seen a place where the law will take a life, unless a life has been taken (or they have at least tried or threatened to take a life).

With that said, I'd rather everything I have be stolen, than my neighbor be killed trying to defend my worthless property.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

With that said, I'd rather everything I have be stolen, than my neighbor be killed trying to defend my worthless property.

Amen to that...

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Written 1973 ..... amended 2007.

Just a FYI

I as a non American find it utterly exaggerated and antiquated, to be given the right in using deadly force to protect land or tangible, movable property.

Was there ever a case in which someone used his gun, to prevent another from stealing his land? I would call this war...

Also the commensurability of shooting someone to dead because he has stolen something doesn´t fit.

To protect yourself against mortal danger, is a right I could agree with. Also as jthig32 posted, if someone tries to get in your house trying to steal something or whatever (resp. runs to your direction despite you warning him), I could agree with a shooting too.

In my opinion, this law shouldn´t be for allowing the people to play a police officer, it should only be for protecting your life against offenders.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

I as a non American find it utterly exaggerated and antiquated, to be given the right in using deadly force to protect land or tangible, movable property.

Was there ever a case in which someone used his gun, to prevent another from stealing his land? I would call this war...

Also the commensurability of shooting someone to dead because he has stolen something doesn´t fit.

To protect yourself against mortal danger, is a right I could agree with. Also as jthig32 posted, if someone tries to get in your house trying to steal something or whatever (resp. runs to your direction despite you warning him), I could agree with a shooting too.

In my opinion, this law shouldn´t be for allowing the people to play a police officer, it should only be for protecting your life against offenders.

I think for the most part you and I and Dalm agree on most points.

However, the law has to be drawn up to allow for any circumstance in which a person legitimately needs to defend himself.

You err on the side of giving a homeowner too much leeway, rather than running the risk of convicting someone who was legitimately defending himself.

Then you trust the majority of citizens to not push the law to the very limit, which I think this particular person did.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Dr. Zoidberg

In my opinion, this law shouldn´t be for allowing the people to play a police officer, it should only be for protecting your life against offenders.

In Texas we are large enough to realize that the police are not your true protection. I don't expect the police to show up at my house for at least 20 minutes after I call, due to the fact that they are 20 miles away usually. I have friends and family there, and they still can't make it in under 15 if they get the call.

20 minutes is dead/alive and long gone for most situations. I do not live in an urban setting, so rules for me are a little different that for some. Opinions are great, but they don't always fit. That is why we have lawmakers, judges, and police officers. They are there to sort it out.

Here in Texas, peace officers often times have less rights to do things that civilians. Other times, they have many more "rights". Circumstance defines the situation.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

^ This is a problem, which is indeed hard to solve...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

^ This is a problem, which is indeed hard to solve...

A big country is hard to rule...

[92bDad]

The easiest solution is to NOT ROB the house, then Mr. Horn is never put in this position.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

The easiest solution is to NOT ROB the house, then Mr. Horn is never put in this position.

I think everyone agrees with this, but it's not really in line with reality.

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

^ This is a problem, which is indeed hard to solve...

I think it comes down to philosophy...

Philosophy A - I rely on the government (police) to protect me
Philosophy B - I rely on my own means to protect me

As dalmations said, the police can not always respond in the timeframe needed. By the time they arrive, the perpetrator is long gone, or I'm dead. This is why many neighbors have Neighborhood Watch programs, where local citizens patrol the neighborhood. These people are not law enforcement officers. They are people like you and me. Some of them carry handguns (with license/permit), and others do not.

I'm a Philosophy A person. I do not rely solely on the police to take care of me and my neighborhood.

[ty]

I don't think I would have thought of this, but blasting the thieves in the legs might have solved the problem. No way they get away because of that, and they also can't press charges since they are illegal aliens.

[92bDad]

Here's a link to the 911 call from Joe Horn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

Again, I support Mr. Horn and his right to keep the neighborhood safe!!! Keep in mind, these criminals entered into HIS yard

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by jefelump

I think it comes down to philosophy...

Philosophy A - I rely on the government (police) to protect me
Philosophy B - I rely on my own means to protect me

As dalmations said, the police can not always respond in the timeframe needed. By the time they arrive, the perpetrator is long gone, or I'm dead. This is why many neighbors have Neighborhood Watch programs, where local citizens patrol the neighborhood. These people are not law enforcement officers. They are people like you and me. Some of them carry handguns (with license/permit), and others do not.

I'm a Philosophy A person. I do not rely solely on the police to take care of me and my neighborhood.

People in a neighborhood watch program still aren't legally allowed to use deadly force to prevent a burglary. It's strictly for personal protection. Neighborhood Watch would call police and stay clear if they saw a burglary in action, not go busting in on them guns wielded.

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And the whole "civic dutry to protect our neighborhood" stuff is bs. Police protect our neighborhoods. People that are trained to answer the "unknowns" that you listed, and make the decision regarding deadly force.

See my prior post. I do not rely solely on the police for protection. I do not want to be shot 5 minutes before the police arrive.

Protecting your neighborhood with your gun is the way it worked in the 1800's. It's not necessary anymore, unless you are in actual danger.

That's one man's opinion, which I respect. However, one of my neighbors sits outside regularly, with a handgun on his side, just watching the street. I have no problem with this. Everyone knows it, and people don't mess with him.

I find it interesting that arguments like this generally find conservatives on the side of "screw them, they deserved to die" and when arguing abortion, conseratives argue that all life is sacred. Very hypocritical.

I'm a conservative that believes in the value of life. I'm against abortion and I'm against people having the right to gun down someone running away with their rolex.

When it comes down to a criminal (and in this case a repeat offender), then yes, screw them. They get what they deserve. When it comes to abortion, you're talking about an unborn child who has done nothing to deserve being aborted. You can't really compare the two. Sure, life is life, but at the same time the criminal chose his lifestyle and got what was coming to him. I find no hypocrisy in this. By your same argument you are therefore opposed to the death penalty, based on the "sanctity of life" argument.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Here's a link to the 911 call from Joe Horn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

Again, I support Mr. Horn and his right to keep the neighborhood safe!!! Keep in mind, these criminals entered into HIS yard

"I've got a shotgun, do you want me to stop 'em?"

Give me a freaking break.

You can clearly hear the dispatcher say "if we don't get there this guy is going to shoot their ass".

Seriously, everyone in this conversation listen to that entire thing. It's absolutely sickening. The guy wasn't scared in the slightest. He was pissed that the guys were getting away, and he walked outside and killed them.

Sickening.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by jefelump

See my prior post. I do not rely solely on the police for protection. I do not want to be shot 5 minutes before the police arrive.

I'm not arguing with that. Personal defense is completely understandable. But going outside like this guy did is a way TO GET SHOT.

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not arguing with that. Personal defense is completely understandable. But going outside like this guy did is a way TO GET SHOT.

I think most people on this board agree going outside probably wasn't the smartest thing he could have done. I do not believe Horn was trigger happer or looking to kill for the sake of killing. I think he felt he had to stop the burgulars. Sure, he told he 911 operator he was going to kill them, but when he got outside he told them to freeze or be shot. If he had been shot and killed, then it would have been because he placed himself in that situation (and because the criminals shot him). It was the risk he took in confronting them.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

"I've got a shotgun, do you want me to stop 'em?"

Give me a freaking break.

You can clearly hear the dispatcher say "if we don't get there this guy is going to shoot their ass".

'Cause action heroes is real...

[dude1394]

So if he doesn't get out there the robbers get away, obviously the cop wasn't there. I don't think it was the brightest thing to do, to go outside for his own safety's sake. But kudos to this guy for standing up for his neighbor and neighborhood.

If the cops and the system aren't going to protect someones home and property then the people in the neighborhood will do it.

Cops failed again and would have made a farce of looking for those peoples belongins. Horn probably saved 10's or 100's of other folks from getting robbed. Good riddance.

[wmbwinn]

True Story:

I used to live in Kansas City, KS (bad side of Kansas City). I was a college student at that time at a small Catholic college (I'm not Catholic). I was renting a "dorm" which used to be the place where Nuns lived (no nuns there at that time). Actually, my wife and I had the larger room where Mother Superior lived. I came home from a trip to Topeka with my wife. My wife entered the little room and screamed. I was right behind her. There was a man in the bedroom. He ran for the front door (we had entered through the small garage). I barely missed him at the door but ran him down. I caught him at the doorstep of his own rented house and took a large knife away from him and held him with his own knife. I, at the point of his own knife, collected his driver's license and social security card. I called 911 from his own phone. The lady who answered the call was incredulous and shocked. The police showed up and carried him away. That man was quite a bit bigger than me.

I know how I react to a threat. I could have been killed. I did not choose to hurt him.

On another later occasion, when I got home (different home, actually a rented home), the back door had been kicked down and my happy stupid hound dog was happily sitting in the living room waiting to greet me. He seemed happy to have had the extra visitor before me. On that occasion, the person was no longer around. I was a poor college student and had next to nothing. They stole a TV and some cheap tools and broken box fan. My wife and I truly had not much and the "hit" wasn't worth it...

On another occasion, I traveled to Chicago from Texas for a conference. I went to the wrong hotel (darn mapsco). I was in the bad part of Chicago. I pulled over in my new Toyota Camry wearing a white shirt and tie. I stepped out to walk into a small "ma and pa" type grocery store. 8 men eyed me and started to flank me walking out a circle to enclose me. I looked like an easy target. I calmly reached into my coat pocket and pulled out a revolver and spun the wheel. I put the revolver back in my pocket and pulled out a knife which I flipped open and scratched my face with. I put the knife back in my pocket. I stood still and glared at the group. They broke up and walked 180 degrees away from me (each in a different direction). I was not an easy target.

So...

That is who I am. And, I have finished 25 grades of education. I am no redneck bumpkin. I am not Obama's "bitter gun owner". I am just an honest hard working American who is well educated, now well compensated, well armed, and well intentioned in all situations. When I was threatened, I hurt no one. But, I could have if I needed to.

All of the above is true.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by jefelump

This is why many neighbors have Neighborhood Watch programs, where local citizens patrol the neighborhood. These people are not law enforcement officers. They are people like you and me. Some of them carry handguns (with license/permit), and others do not.

I find this a good solution for the-police-arrives-to-late-problem. But to ensure the right behavior in different situations and the handling of guns, I would dictate those people to pass a training course (maybe by the police).

Originally Posted by dude1394

So if he doesn't get out there the robbers get away, obviously the cop wasn't there.

There was already a detective in his car, and if Mr Horn wouldn´t have shot the burglars, the detective would have probably arrested or better followed the burglars and therewith maybe snapped some other burglars too (if those two were organized in a racket).

Originally Posted by wmbwin

On another occasion, I traveled to Chicago from Texas for a conference. I went to the wrong hotel (darn mapsco). I was in the bad part of Chicago. I pulled over in my new Toyota Camry wearing a white shirt and tie. I stepped out to walk into a small "ma and pa" type grocery store. 8 men eyed me and started to flank me walking out a circle to enclose me. I looked like an easy target. I calmly reached into my coat pocket and pulled out a revolver and spun the wheel. I put the revolver back in my pocket and pulled out a knife which I flipped open and scratched my face with. I put the knife back in my pocket. I stood still and glared at the group. They broke up and walked 180 degrees away from me (each in a different direction). I was not an easy target.

You can thank god, that those men obviously were not a dangerous gang of criminals, otherwise you would have been dead...

[wmbwinn]

"You can thank god, that those men obviously were not a dangerous gang of criminals, otherwise you would have been dead..."

Thugs and bullies are primarily looking for easy targets. They did not know who/what I was. Well dressed in a nice car armed in their neighborhood means I could be a worse criminal than they are.

Had they pushed the attack, I would have fought. Would I have died? Maybe. I'd take several of them out.

Point is simple. Unarmed, I would have been robbed/beaten. As it was, I was unchallenged.

I have found that to always be true. Thugs and bullies are not interested in a fight with someone who is not afraid of them.

[wmbwinn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefelump
This is why many neighbors have Neighborhood Watch programs, where local citizens patrol the neighborhood. These people are not law enforcement officers. They are people like you and me. Some of them carry handguns (with license/permit), and others do not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Doc Zoidberg
"I find this a good solution for the-police-arrives-to-late-problem. But to ensure the right behavior in different situations and the handling of guns, I would dictate those people to pass a training course (maybe by the police)."

--------------------------

Very good. You are now officially a supporter of concealed handgun laws. Every state that allows concealed carry (48 out of 50 now) requires that the person undergo training and demonstrate safety. Most also require a practical test to demonstrate that the person can hit what he is aiming at and can use the weapon safely.

[wmbwinn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394
So if he doesn't get out there the robbers get away, obviously the cop wasn't there.

Quote:
Originally posted by Doc Zoidberg
There was already a detective in his car, and if Mr Horn wouldn´t have shot the burglars, the detective would have probably arrested or better followed the burglars and therewith maybe snapped some other burglars too (if those two were organized in a racket).

-------------------------------

That is why this case is one that gun control groups are holding up for media scrutiny. This is an example of an extremely rare and bizarre case.
Mr. Horn had no idea that law enforcement was already present. 99.9% (my guess) of the time, that would be preposterous.

[GermanDunk]

I listened to the tape and i must say, that Mr. Horn is a maniac.

[dude1394]

If the cop was there, why the heck didn't he stop the guys from robbing the house? What I understood was that he had just driven up and saw the altercation (late), not that he was already there.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

If the cop was there, why the heck didn't he stop the guys from robbing the house? What I understood was that he had just driven up and saw the altercation (late), not that he was already there.

Maybe because he is trained for this situation and not a trigger happy wannabe western hero?

Maybe he would have arrested them with theirs stolen goods as evidence?

Maybe he had the plan to follow them to see if there are other criminals, those two burglars working together with?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

Maybe because he is trained for this situation and not a trigger happy wannabe western hero?

Maybe he would have arrested them with theirs stolen goods as evidence?

Maybe he had the plan to follow them to see if there are other criminals, those two burglars working together with?

More likely he was late.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

"You can thank god, that those men obviously were not a dangerous gang of criminals, otherwise you would have been dead..."

Thugs and bullies are primarily looking for easy targets. They did not know who/what I was. Well dressed in a nice car armed in their neighborhood means I could be a worse criminal than they are.

Had they pushed the attack, I would have fought. Would I have died? Maybe. I'd take several of them out.

Point is simple. Unarmed, I would have been robbed/beaten. As it was, I was unchallenged.

I have found that to always be true. Thugs and bullies are not interested in a fight with someone who is not afraid of them.

Thats not my opinion. If these men would have been dangerous criminals, someone would have picked his gun and shot you. You can´t keep an eye on 10 guys. To use a gun in order to prevent 10 men from robbing you, only works against gangster wannabes...

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

More likely he was late.

A plain clothes police detective responding to the 911 call had arrived at the scene before the shooting and witnessed the escalation and shootings, while remaining in his car.

Link

He was late, but not to late to arrest them or follow them...

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

True Story:

I used to live in Kansas City, KS (bad side of Kansas City). I was a college student at that time at a small Catholic college (I'm not Catholic). I was renting a "dorm" which used to be the place where Nuns lived (no nuns there at that time). Actually, my wife and I had the larger room where Mother Superior lived. I came home from a trip to Topeka with my wife. My wife entered the little room and screamed. I was right behind her. There was a man in the bedroom. He ran for the front door (we had entered through the small garage). I barely missed him at the door but ran him down. I caught him at the doorstep of his own rented house and took a large knife away from him and held him with his own knife. I, at the point of his own knife, collected his driver's license and social security card. I called 911 from his own phone. The lady who answered the call was incredulous and shocked. The police showed up and carried him away. That man was quite a bit bigger than me.

I know how I react to a threat. I could have been killed. I did not choose to hurt him.

On another later occasion, when I got home (different home, actually a rented home), the back door had been kicked down and my happy stupid hound dog was happily sitting in the living room waiting to greet me. He seemed happy to have had the extra visitor before me. On that occasion, the person was no longer around. I was a poor college student and had next to nothing. They stole a TV and some cheap tools and broken box fan. My wife and I truly had not much and the "hit" wasn't worth it...

On another occasion, I traveled to Chicago from Texas for a conference. I went to the wrong hotel (darn mapsco). I was in the bad part of Chicago. I pulled over in my new Toyota Camry wearing a white shirt and tie. I stepped out to walk into a small "ma and pa" type grocery store. 8 men eyed me and started to flank me walking out a circle to enclose me. I looked like an easy target. I calmly reached into my coat pocket and pulled out a revolver and spun the wheel. I put the revolver back in my pocket and pulled out a knife which I flipped open and scratched my face with. I put the knife back in my pocket. I stood still and glared at the group. They broke up and walked 180 degrees away from me (each in a different direction). I was not an easy target.

So...

That is who I am. And, I have finished 25 grades of education. I am no redneck bumpkin. I am not Obama's "bitter gun owner". I am just an honest hard working American who is well educated, now well compensated, well armed, and well intentioned in all situations. When I was threatened, I hurt no one. But, I could have if I needed to.

All of the above is true.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to wmbwinn again.

[92bDad]

So the assessment is that the undercover officer was on the scene and witnessed the shooting.

And Mr. Horn was acquitted.

This tells me that Mr. Horn was justified in his actions. After all, it was witnessed by a police officer, so the criminals must have done something against the law that provided Mr. Horn with legal protection to use deadly force.

He was well within his rights. I wonder if the ACLU would come to Mr. Horn's defense with all these other folks attacking him? Do they truly defend the rights of all?

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I guess I'm with you thig, I think the guy should have stayed in his house.

He started out the right way, he called the cops. The cops were coming. But then the guy was worried they were going to get away, and decided to go outside. I don't think I could've brought myself to go outside, even with the gun.

But hey, if someone comes into my house, I reserve the right to f#ck them up.

Did the report say how long after he shot them the police arrived?

absolutely agree with you here, on all levels.

the police (unmarked) had already arrived when he shot them. THey saw him do it.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Texas Penal Code 9.42 - Deadly Force to Protect Property

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

1. if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

2. when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

A. to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

B. to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

3. he reasonably believes that:

A. the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

B. the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.





From what I have read, he might have been able to convince a jury of the bolded above.

this is one of the most MORONIC codes I have ever seen.

So by the law, if a 8 year old is running away from a store with a stolen apple, he can be legally shot in the back and killed as justifiable homicide to protect property.

please tell me i am missing something.

[jefelump]

2. when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

I don't think anyone on this chatboard, or in the entire state of Texas believes it would be REASONABLE to shoot an 8 yr old kid in the back for stealing an apple.

That example comes nowhere near the situation Mr Horn dealt with....

And jthig, regarding your post #84.... Texas Penal Code 9.42 does not mention the crime taking place "on your property." It reads "B. to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property". The phrase "the property" does not mean "your property".