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Old 11-15-2004, 03:56 PM   #41
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Interesting numbers: Dirk is averaging 2.6 more FGA per game than Finley, and 2.6 more FGM. Fin's also only averaged 3.0 FTA per game, which is most assuredly a function of his pulling up for jumpers instead of attacking the rim a la Stackhouse, who averages nearly twice as many free throw attempts per game.
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Old 11-15-2004, 04:55 PM   #42
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Fin in the Golden State game had 6 attempts that game and had 4 attempts before he got injured in the Magic game where he only played 20 minutes. And how does Fin get hurt? By driving to the lane. Fin has been determine to drive to the rack regardless of what stats you bring up. I've seen this with my own two eyes.
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Old 11-15-2004, 06:33 PM   #43
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Default RE: Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Fin's also only averaged 3.0 FTA per game, which is most assuredly a function of his pulling up for jumpers instead of attacking the rim a la Stackhouse, who averages nearly twice as many free throw attempts per game.
Fin's been attacking. He's just not very good at drawing fouls. I know a lot of people are enthused about how aggressive he'd been to start the season, but I have to say that I'm not really all that excited about it. IMO Fin's a better scorer with the jumper than he is taking his man off the dribble and attacking the rim. With a number of other guys on the team being superior to Fin on the dribble drive and inferior to Fin draining it from 15' and out, I want to see Fin concentrate more on keeping the ball moving unless he catches it in space (in which case he should just rise up and shoot it right then), or with his defender off balance enough that it's easy for him to dribble into space and pull up for a jumper, or easy for him to make it to the basket without too much resistance from the perimeter.
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Old 11-15-2004, 07:29 PM   #44
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: sike
I know its tired, but NVE's days in dallas proves that sometimes a snake when focused on striking the opponant can be a pretty decent weapon.
Sure NVE was great for the Mavs but would he have been happy last year with the team losing? And what about the fact that NVE wouldn't get his minutes or his shots - would he still be a good teammate? I don't think so. We got rid of NVE at the EXACT right moment.
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:01 PM   #45
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: Max Power
Quote:
Originally posted by: sike
I know its tired, but NVE's days in dallas proves that sometimes a snake when focused on striking the opponant can be a pretty decent weapon.
Sure NVE was great for the Mavs but would he have been happy last year with the team losing? And what about the fact that NVE wouldn't get his minutes or his shots - would he still be a good teammate? I don't think so. We got rid of NVE at the EXACT right moment.
pure speculation Maxy, all I'm willing to look at is what actually DID happen. And what did happen was a former bad egg got so fed up with losing that he was willing to take a lesser spot and lesser glory to taste winning...and I don't see any reason that cannot happen here. And I don't think most would put Stack in that same NVE type level of "rotton apple potential" status.
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Old 11-15-2004, 08:46 PM   #46
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Default RE: Fin Vs. Stack

Also not to mention imho that michael jordan made that franchise a complete joke and a circus. It was his personal play-toy and himself the beneficiary. I don't doubt that stack couldn't believe he was playing behind a has-been like jordan at the time.
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Old 11-15-2004, 09:55 PM   #47
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: sike
pure speculation Maxy, all I'm willing to look at is what actually DID happen.
If all you are willing to look at is what actually DID happen then the facts are Stack wore his welcome out of two cities within a very short period of time and both franchises were glad to get rid of him. It is pure speculation to hope that Stack will change his attitude.
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Old 11-15-2004, 10:00 PM   #48
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: dude1394
Also not to mention imho that michael jordan made that franchise a complete joke and a circus. It was his personal play-toy and himself the beneficiary. I don't doubt that stack couldn't believe he was playing behind a has-been like jordan at the time.
When did Stack ever play behind Jordan? Or are you referring to being a 2nd option to Mike?
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Old 11-15-2004, 10:23 PM   #49
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: Max Power
Quote:
Originally posted by: sike
pure speculation Maxy, all I'm willing to look at is what actually DID happen.
If all you are willing to look at is what actually DID happen then the facts are Stack wore his welcome out of two cities within a very short period of time and both franchises were glad to get rid of him. It is pure speculation to hope that Stack will change his attitude.
of course it is...but at this point, all we have is speculation on Stackhouse....your speculation was based upon an imaginary situation with NVE a player who, like Stack, came from a losing situation to a winning one and turned things around. It is not speculation to say that NVE was a great fit here...it is however speculation to say that NVE would have turned sour here under such-and-such a situation because that did not happen and it is speculation to say that Stack will turn sour here in this situation. So, for the record, I am only speculating in one unknowable situation, you are speculating on two. None of this makes either one of us right...but one does is less speculative and more logical.

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Old 11-15-2004, 10:37 PM   #50
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
Quote:
Originally posted by: dude1394
Also not to mention imho that michael jordan made that franchise a complete joke and a circus. It was his personal play-toy and himself the beneficiary. I don't doubt that stack couldn't believe he was playing behind a has-been like jordan at the time.
When did Stack ever play behind Jordan? Or are you referring to being a 2nd option to Mike?

To be honest I don't know if they played together or same position. Just that I thought that washington was a joke with jordan. Jordan was an old lion still trying to hear himself roar. And so he roared at everyone else when he was as big a problem as any. I would have had a hard time with that situation as well.
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Old 11-16-2004, 12:55 AM   #51
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Interesting numbers: Dirk is averaging 2.6 more FGA per game than Finley, and 2.6 more FGM. Fin's also only averaged 3.0 FTA per game, which is most assuredly a function of his pulling up for jumpers instead of attacking the rim a la Stackhouse, who averages nearly twice as many free throw attempts per game.
It must be a coincidence that Dirk is taking more shots per game while Finley is out because Stack (14.25) is averaging near the shot attempts in the last 4 games that Fin (14.8) did in his first 5. Throw in the fact that Fin was averaging 3ft attempts in his five games to Stacks 6 attempts in his last 4 and it shows Stack is dominating the ball more than Finley was. Not sure why Fin was being called a ball hog and accused of taking shots away from Dirk while Stack is being praised for his .

Another way to look at things is to show totals instead of averages:

Fin:

5 games
158 minutes
32-74 fg
8-18 3pt
13-15 ft
85 points
23 rebounds
12 asssists
3 steals
4 blocks
9 turnovers

Stack:

8 games
239 minutes
39-91 fg
7-21 3pt
36-43 ft
121 points
22 rebounds
19 assists
8 steals
1 block
16 turnovers


Stack has played 3 more games, logged 81 more minutes, taken 17 more shots, 28 more ft's and has managed to only score 36 more points than Finley did. He's grabbed 1 less rebound, only dished out 7 more assists, stolen the ball 5 more times, turned the ball over 7 more times, and has blocked 3 less shots than Finley.

Sorry if I'm not impressed.
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:41 AM   #52
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: sike
So, for the record, I am only speculating in one unknowable situation, you are speculating on two. None of this makes either one of us right...but one does is less speculative and more logical.
You brought in an example of a player (NVE) who had a similar pattern to Stack. I pointed out that NVE wasn't here long enough to be an example of a changed attitude. Both of these players have a distinct pattern - they go somewhere and they make happy noises for awhile then something changes and they quit bothering to make those happy noises anymore. That doesn't mean that they have changed their attitude, they are just making a brief effort to make the politically correct statement. It might SEEM like they are happy but eventually their attitude returns to its natural state.

So I am basing my opinion on what I view as the natural state of Stackhouse - he is a miserable person and he wears out his welcome quickly. I am simply HOPING that he suppresses that attitude long enough for us to trade him for a mid first rounder. There is no indication that he (or even NVE) has ever had a permanent attitude change or ever will.

Personally I think Stackhouse is the worst cancer we've ever had on the team and I want him gone.
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Old 11-16-2004, 01:43 AM   #53
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
Quote:
Interesting numbers: Dirk is averaging 2.6 more FGA per game than Finley, and 2.6 more FGM. Fin's also only averaged 3.0 FTA per game, which is most assuredly a function of his pulling up for jumpers instead of attacking the rim a la Stackhouse, who averages nearly twice as many free throw attempts per game.
It must be a coincidence that Dirk is taking more shots per game while Finley is out because Stack (14.25) is averaging near the shot attempts in the last 4 games that Fin (14.8) did in his first 5. Throw in the fact that Fin was averaging 3ft attempts in his five games to Stacks 6 attempts in his last 4 and it shows Stack is dominating the ball more than Finley was. Not sure why Fin was being called a ball hog and accused of taking shots away from Dirk while Stack is being praised for his .

Another way to look at things is to show totals instead of averages:

Fin:

5 games
158 minutes
32-74 fg
8-18 3pt
13-15 ft
85 points
23 rebounds
12 asssists
3 steals
4 blocks
9 turnovers

Stack:

8 games
239 minutes
39-91 fg
7-21 3pt
36-43 ft
121 points
22 rebounds
19 assists
8 steals
1 block
16 turnovers


Stack has played 3 more games, logged 81 more minutes, taken 17 more shots, 28 more ft's and has managed to only score 36 more points than Finley did. He's grabbed 1 less rebound, only dished out 7 more assists, stolen the ball 5 more times, turned the ball over 7 more times, and has blocked 3 less shots than Finley.

Sorry if I'm not impressed.
Excellent breakdown.

Can't argue with the numbers.
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Old 11-16-2004, 12:08 PM   #54
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: orangedays
Quote:
Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
Quote:
Interesting numbers: Dirk is averaging 2.6 more FGA per game than Finley, and 2.6 more FGM. Fin's also only averaged 3.0 FTA per game, which is most assuredly a function of his pulling up for jumpers instead of attacking the rim a la Stackhouse, who averages nearly twice as many free throw attempts per game.
It must be a coincidence that Dirk is taking more shots per game while Finley is out because Stack (14.25) is averaging near the shot attempts in the last 4 games that Fin (14.8) did in his first 5. Throw in the fact that Fin was averaging 3ft attempts in his five games to Stacks 6 attempts in his last 4 and it shows Stack is dominating the ball more than Finley was. Not sure why Fin was being called a ball hog and accused of taking shots away from Dirk while Stack is being praised for his .

Another way to look at things is to show totals instead of averages:

Fin:

5 games
158 minutes
32-74 fg
8-18 3pt
13-15 ft
85 points
23 rebounds
12 asssists
3 steals
4 blocks
9 turnovers

Stack:

8 games
239 minutes
39-91 fg
7-21 3pt
36-43 ft
121 points
22 rebounds
19 assists
8 steals
1 block
16 turnovers


Stack has played 3 more games, logged 81 more minutes, taken 17 more shots, 28 more ft's and has managed to only score 36 more points than Finley did. He's grabbed 1 less rebound, only dished out 7 more assists, stolen the ball 5 more times, turned the ball over 7 more times, and has blocked 3 less shots than Finley.

Sorry if I'm not impressed.
Excellent breakdown.

Can't argue with the numbers.
Too bad charges drawn, and overall defensive play, doesn't show up in the numbers though.
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Old 11-16-2004, 04:15 PM   #55
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Good point...

Oh wait...what is your point?

Stack's a better defensive player?
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Old 11-16-2004, 05:43 PM   #56
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: orangedays
Good point...

Oh wait...what is your point?

Stack's a better defensive player?
ANYONE is a better defensive player than Finley...except maybe Nash.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:05 PM   #57
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: bobatundi1
Quote:
Originally posted by: orangedays
Good point...

Oh wait...what is your point?

Stack's a better defensive player?
ANYONE is a better defensive player than Finley...except maybe Nash.
Mike Dunleavy, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Peja Stojakovic, Drew Gooden, Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Glenn Robinson, Rodney White, Moochie Norris, Wally Szczerbiak
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:17 PM   #58
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Default RE: Fin Vs. Stack

trashing Stackhouse is totally uncalled for. he's a good guy.
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:53 AM   #59
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: orangedays
Quote:
Originally posted by: bobatundi1
Quote:
Originally posted by: orangedays
Good point...

Oh wait...what is your point?

Stack's a better defensive player?
ANYONE is a better defensive player than Finley...except maybe Nash.
Mike Dunleavy, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Peja Stojakovic, Drew Gooden, Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Glenn Robinson, Rodney White, Moochie Norris, Wally Szczerbiak
I'll take them all.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:52 AM   #60
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack



Quote:
Mike Dunleavy, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Peja Stojakovic, Drew Gooden, Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Glenn Robinson, Rodney White, Moochie Norris, Wally Szczerbiak
Thats crazy, Drew Gooden is pretty darn good defender, an upgrade from Boozer for sure. But the rest of the list is iffy, Finley is in that class for sure. Stack is the better defender for sure.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:22 AM   #61
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Default RE: Fin Vs. Stack

I thought about this debate when Stack had 2 nice games. Is he better than Finely?

You know what, after a while, I don't think this debate is needed because:
1.) It's not like we can get rid of Finely, so even IF Stack is better, Finely will still play
2.) Both Finely and Stack are pretty different. Finely is a good shooter and Stack is a great one-on-one.
3.) Stack is a 6th man and I think his role is leaning towards Nick Van. I think Stack will be the most important piece we need in playoffs especially when defense gets a lot tighter and Mavs' shots just don't go in. We need somebody who can do one-on-one well and draw fouls. Both Dirk and Stack can do that which is NICE. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Admit it, Mav's isn't the best rebounding team, so when their shots are not going in (especially Finely), we need Stack to penetrate and draw fouls.

So, in conclusion, both Finely and Stack are extremely important. I am not too fond of Finely but when his shots go in, he's pretty good. Stack has been known for being an offense machine. He had a 29 pt per game in one year. He has potential.

If you ask me, I would rather have Stack than Jamison/Walker but that's another debate.

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Old 11-18-2004, 11:34 AM   #62
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: jibikao
I thought about this debate when Stack had 2 nice games. Is he better than Finely?

You know what, after a while, I don't think this debate is needed because:
1.) It's not like we can get rid of Finely, so even IF Stack is better, Finely will still play
2.) Both Finely and Stack are pretty different. Finely is a good shooter and Stack is a great one-on-one.
3.) Stack is a 6th man and I think his role is leaning towards Nick Van. I think Stack will be the most important piece we need in playoffs especially when defense gets a lot tighter and Mavs' shots just don't go in. We need somebody who can do one-on-one well and draw fouls. Both Dirk and Stack can do that which is NICE. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Admit it, Mav's isn't the best rebounding team, so when their shots are not going in (especially Finely), we need Stack to penetrate and draw fouls.

So, in conclusion, both Finely and Stack are extremely important. I am not too fond of Finely but when his shots go in, he's pretty good. Stack has been known for being an offense machine. He had a 29 pt per game in one year. He has potential.

If you ask me, I would rather have Stack than Jamison/Walker but that's another debate.

Jimmy
I think in general you are correct in your evaluation....with a few exceptions.

They have two different games yes, and each is very good at what they do.
My opinion is that Stack should start, and Fin should be the 6th man. I know Nellie won't do this out of loyality, and the leadership of Fin since he has been here so long, but here's my argument.

If you started Howard/Stack, with Nowitzki, then Dirk shoots the outside shot, and all others are going to the basket. Nellie then has a shooter to come off the bench to break the zone in Fin. Stack/Howard become backside cutters and rebounders. Howard cutting and allowing him to clean up, and dunk is playing to his strength. Stack getting the ball from the extra pass allows him to fake and take it to the rim. Fin being the 6th man who can come in for Stack or bust the zone would be a great assett for Nellie as well. Also Daniels could come in for Defense, or to post PG's etc.

I also start Stack instead of Fin, to make Dirk the #1 option, and Stack the #2, going to the rim, not settling for outside jumpers early in the game. Presently it seems like it is Dirk #1, and Damp #2 -- (but they forget about him).

I just don't see Nellie doing it.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:23 PM   #63
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: dalmations202
Quote:
Originally posted by: jibikao
I thought about this debate when Stack had 2 nice games. Is he better than Finely?

You know what, after a while, I don't think this debate is needed because:
1.) It's not like we can get rid of Finely, so even IF Stack is better, Finely will still play
2.) Both Finely and Stack are pretty different. Finely is a good shooter and Stack is a great one-on-one.
3.) Stack is a 6th man and I think his role is leaning towards Nick Van. I think Stack will be the most important piece we need in playoffs especially when defense gets a lot tighter and Mavs' shots just don't go in. We need somebody who can do one-on-one well and draw fouls. Both Dirk and Stack can do that which is NICE. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Admit it, Mav's isn't the best rebounding team, so when their shots are not going in (especially Finely), we need Stack to penetrate and draw fouls.

So, in conclusion, both Finely and Stack are extremely important. I am not too fond of Finely but when his shots go in, he's pretty good. Stack has been known for being an offense machine. He had a 29 pt per game in one year. He has potential.

If you ask me, I would rather have Stack than Jamison/Walker but that's another debate.

Jimmy
I think in general you are correct in your evaluation....with a few exceptions.

They have two different games yes, and each is very good at what they do.
My opinion is that Stack should start, and Fin should be the 6th man. I know Nellie won't do this out of loyality, and the leadership of Fin since he has been here so long, but here's my argument.

If you started Howard/Stack, with Nowitzki, then Dirk shoots the outside shot, and all others are going to the basket. Nellie then has a shooter to come off the bench to break the zone in Fin. Stack/Howard become backside cutters and rebounders. Howard cutting and allowing him to clean up, and dunk is playing to his strength. Stack getting the ball from the extra pass allows him to fake and take it to the rim. Fin being the 6th man who can come in for Stack or bust the zone would be a great assett for Nellie as well. Also Daniels could come in for Defense, or to post PG's etc.

I also start Stack instead of Fin, to make Dirk the #1 option, and Stack the #2, going to the rim, not settling for outside jumpers early in the game. Presently it seems like it is Dirk #1, and Damp #2 -- (but they forget about him).

I just don't see Nellie doing it.
Hi there. Yeah, I don't think Finely would want to be the 6th man so that's why I say Stack will have to be the great 6th man. lol Both provide something Dallas needs. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

As for passing, I don't think Finely is a great passer... maybe it's just me. I also don't think Finely dribbles well. lol Oh well, a leader is always important to the team.

I wonder if the team has treated Dirk as a leader yet? Do they respect him a lot? Any idea? 'Cause Dirk is kinda quiet...

Jimmy

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Old 11-18-2004, 04:49 PM   #64
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

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so when their shots are not going in (especially Finely), we need Stack to penetrate and draw fouls.

Where was this when we couldn't score to save our lives in the Phoenix game when Dirk went out of the game? Was Stack not the one shooting jumpers?
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:52 PM   #65
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

I remember two years ago when everyone wasn't really familiar with the trading in the NBA they use to preach that we should trade Finley everytime he got hurt. Now they realize that Fin won't be traded they want to put him in the 6th man role. We do this every year so I guess I should be use to it now.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:39 PM   #66
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
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so when their shots are not going in (especially Finely), we need Stack to penetrate and draw fouls.

Where was this when we couldn't score to save our lives in the Phoenix game when Dirk went out of the game? Was Stack not the one shooting jumpers?
Where was Fin? They definately could have used his help. IMO; Fin, Terry, and Dirk are the shooters. Fin is either the best or second best shooter behind Dirk.

Fin is not the best at driving though. Stack is better at taking it to the rack. Fin does not have the handles, and that has been documented for years. The way to defend Fin, is to make him floor the ball. If Fin is on, it doesn't matter because he will beat you with his fade away. If he is off, he will keep shooting the jumper and go home 5-20.

Now, if I was coaching, and I wanted Dirk to start the game as the shooter, and all others to take the ball in, forcing the tempo I want, and not allowing the other team to force tempo, then who should start. IMO...Stack.

What does that leave me with on the bench? An all-star caliber shooter that I could put in to "bust the zone", or get my #1 offensive player some rest, allowing Fin to be the #1 offensive threat, and play either SG or SF, depending on which gives him the better mismatch.

Fin would be a great 6th man because of his versatility. I am not trying to belittle Fin, just state that he would be excellent in that role. I like Fin, and don't advocate trading him unless you can get top 10 talent for him, but talking a 6th man role makes perfect sense for him at this point in his career. Then Fin could be the #1 option, instead of Stack coming in and being the #1 option when Dirk is out of the game.

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Old 11-18-2004, 09:50 PM   #67
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: dalmations202
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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
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so when their shots are not going in (especially Finely), we need Stack to penetrate and draw fouls.

Where was this when we couldn't score to save our lives in the Phoenix game when Dirk went out of the game? Was Stack not the one shooting jumpers?
Where was Fin? They definately could have used his help. IMO; Fin, Terry, and Dirk are the shooters. Fin is either the best or second best shooter behind Dirk.

Fin is not the best at driving though. Stack is better at taking it to the rack. Fin does not have the handles, and that has been documented for years. The way to defend Fin, is to make him floor the ball. If Fin is on, it doesn't matter because he will beat you with his fade away. If he is off, he will keep shooting the jumper and go home 5-20.

Now, if I was coaching, and I wanted Dirk to start the game as the shooter, and all others to take the ball in, forcing the tempo I want, and not allowing the other team to force tempo, then who should start. IMO...Stack.

What does that leave me with on the bench? An all-star caliber shooter that I could put in to "bust the zone", or get my #1 offensive player some rest, allowing Fin to be the #1 offensive threat, and play either SG or SF, depending on which gives him the better mismatch.

Fin would be a great 6th man because of his versatility. I am not trying to belittle Fin, just state that he would be excellent in that role. I like Fin, and don't advocate trading him unless you can get top 10 talent for him, but talking a 6th man role makes perfect sense for him at this point in his career. Then Fin could be the #1 option, instead of Stack coming in and being the #1 option when Dirk is out of the game.

Where was Fin? I could be wrong here but I think he was injured. And as far as sitting Fin on the bench it's fine if you prefer having a guy like Fin come into the game and launch up jumpers in order to get a rhythym. It's not easy coming off the bench and being depended on to score. As you saw the other night Dirk came in the game launching and missing jumpers. Guys like Jamison have success coming off the bench because they are capable of going inside out. As you stated above, Fin is not the best at driving so I don't see why you would want him coming off the bench. And to top it off the bench doesn't guarantee you less shots or less minutes. All it guarantess you is that you won't ever play 48 minutes in a regular season game. Fin could come off the bench and still shoot 20 jumpers and get 38 minutes so if you think Fin coming off the bench is a solution to getting Dirk more shots than you have another thing coming.
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Old 11-19-2004, 02:04 AM   #68
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Default RE: Fin Vs. Stack

In the last 5 games, Stack is taking 15.6 shots per game to Dirk's 18.

In the last 3 games, Stack is taking 19 shots per game to Dirk's 16.6.
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Old 11-19-2004, 08:26 AM   #69
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
I remember two years ago when everyone wasn't really familiar with the trading in the NBA they use to preach that we should trade Finley everytime he got hurt. Now they realize that Fin won't be traded they want to put him in the 6th man role. We do this every year so I guess I should be use to it now.
Filthy, I (for one) have suggested that Finley would be good as 6th, NOT as some sort of demotion or de-emphasis, but because I think he has the temperment and skills to be successful in that role, and also because I think it might actually preserve him physically a little better.

Having a player who can come in and start shooting or be a lockdown defender is a key contribution for a contending team--like John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton in Boston; like Bobby Jones for Philly's championship team; like Downtown Fred Brown with Seattle's championship teams, like Michael Cooper with the ShowTime teams; and like Ricky Pierce with Nelson's old Milwaukee teams.

I think that fans, like players, lose sight of the fact that starting the game is not the only way to make an important contribution, and that great players can make great contributions in a 6th-man role.
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Old 11-19-2004, 09:08 AM   #70
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

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And as far as sitting Fin on the bench it's fine if you prefer having a guy like Fin come into the game and launch up jumpers in order to get a rhythym. It's not easy coming off the bench and being depended on to score. As you saw the other night Dirk came in the game launching and missing jumpers. Guys like Jamison have success coming off the bench because they are capable of going inside out. As you stated above, Fin is not the best at driving so I don't see why you would want him coming off the bench. And to top it off the bench doesn't guarantee you less shots or less minutes. All it guarantess you is that you won't ever play 48 minutes in a regular season game. Fin could come off the bench and still shoot 20 jumpers and get 38 minutes so if you think Fin coming off the bench is a solution to getting Dirk more shots than you have another thing coming.
Yes, I prefer Fin coming in and knocking down jumpers. I prefer him to be rested and have his legs throughout the season, and not be injured. I prefer him playing, leading, and winning with the Mavs. I don't in any way form or fashion believe that he has to come in and go inside out to get in rythem to shoot though. I have coached way too many kids who could shoot, and sometimes they were on, and sometimes they were off. If you get them in early, then you say they haven't got in rythem yet, if it is late, then they have lost their legs from being tired. Either way, sometimes they come in and shoot lights out, and sometimes they can't hit the broad side of a barn. EX...a couple of years ago in the WCF, a little used backup shooter named Steve Kerr came in the game against the Mavericks, and turned a loss for the Spurs into a win, by shooting lights out -- cold, not in rythem, late in the 3rd before he saw the floor.

I did not say I wanted Dirk to get more shots, nor Fin get less. What I said was the Fin on the bench would allow Dirk to be the #1 option to start the game, then Nellie would have an awesome tool to utilize as the game needed. This would also allow Dirk to be pulled a little sooner, and Fin to be the #1 scoring option. I think he is a better #1 scoring option than Stack. I think Stack is better at getting to the rim though, and a better #2 scoring option. At times, I think all three Dirk, Fin, Stack are needed in the game for their scoring.

I guess the only difference I see in what you and I said is that : Because Fin is a shooter, I want him on the bench, to bring in a shooter. You seem to think that because Stack is a slasher, he should come off the bench to slash. I guess just a preference.

Now, with all this said. IMO, Fin will always start because of the allegiance Nellie holds to him, and because of his leadership ability.
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:31 PM   #71
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Quote:
Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
I remember two years ago when everyone wasn't really familiar with the trading in the NBA they use to preach that we should trade Finley everytime he got hurt. Now they realize that Fin won't be traded they want to put him in the 6th man role. We do this every year so I guess I should be use to it now.
Filthy, I (for one) have suggested that Finley would be good as 6th, NOT as some sort of demotion or de-emphasis, but because I think he has the temperment and skills to be successful in that role, and also because I think it might actually preserve him physically a little better.

Having a player who can come in and start shooting or be a lockdown defender is a key contribution for a contending team--like John Havlicek, Kevin McHale and Bill Walton in Boston; like Bobby Jones for Philly's championship team; like Downtown Fred Brown with Seattle's championship teams, like Michael Cooper with the ShowTime teams; and like Ricky Pierce with Nelson's old Milwaukee teams.

I think that fans, like players, lose sight of the fact that starting the game is not the only way to make an important contribution, and that great players can make great contributions in a 6th-man role.

And, why can't Stack or Terry take this role? I'll state right now that i'm one of the ones who believes you should just play the best players available. I think this whole Terry and Stack on the bench is just to say that we have the best bench in the league. I don't think it makes us any better sitting Terry and Stack on the bench than if they were starting.

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Old 11-19-2004, 12:34 PM   #72
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
Originally posted by: dalmations202
Quote:
And as far as sitting Fin on the bench it's fine if you prefer having a guy like Fin come into the game and launch up jumpers in order to get a rhythym. It's not easy coming off the bench and being depended on to score. As you saw the other night Dirk came in the game launching and missing jumpers. Guys like Jamison have success coming off the bench because they are capable of going inside out. As you stated above, Fin is not the best at driving so I don't see why you would want him coming off the bench. And to top it off the bench doesn't guarantee you less shots or less minutes. All it guarantess you is that you won't ever play 48 minutes in a regular season game. Fin could come off the bench and still shoot 20 jumpers and get 38 minutes so if you think Fin coming off the bench is a solution to getting Dirk more shots than you have another thing coming.
Yes, I prefer Fin coming in and knocking down jumpers. I prefer him to be rested and have his legs throughout the season, and not be injured. I prefer him playing, leading, and winning with the Mavs. I don't in any way form or fashion believe that he has to come in and go inside out to get in rythem to shoot though. I have coached way too many kids who could shoot, and sometimes they were on, and sometimes they were off. If you get them in early, then you say they haven't got in rythem yet, if it is late, then they have lost their legs from being tired. Either way, sometimes they come in and shoot lights out, and sometimes they can't hit the broad side of a barn. EX...a couple of years ago in the WCF, a little used backup shooter named Steve Kerr came in the game against the Mavericks, and turned a loss for the Spurs into a win, by shooting lights out -- cold, not in rythem, late in the 3rd before he saw the floor.

I did not say I wanted Dirk to get more shots, nor Fin get less. What I said was the Fin on the bench would allow Dirk to be the #1 option to start the game, then Nellie would have an awesome tool to utilize as the game needed. This would also allow Dirk to be pulled a little sooner, and Fin to be the #1 scoring option. I think he is a better #1 scoring option than Stack. I think Stack is better at getting to the rim though, and a better #2 scoring option. At times, I think all three Dirk, Fin, Stack are needed in the game for their scoring.

I guess the only difference I see in what you and I said is that : Because Fin is a shooter, I want him on the bench, to bring in a shooter. You seem to think that because Stack is a slasher, he should come off the bench to slash. I guess just a preference.

Now, with all this said. IMO, Fin will always start because of the allegiance Nellie holds to him, and because of his leadership ability.

Dirk isn't the #1 scorer when Fin is starting alongside him?
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Old 11-19-2004, 12:59 PM   #73
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Default RE:Fin Vs. Stack

Quote:
And, why can't Stack or Terry take this role? I'll state right now that i'm one of the ones who believes you should just play the best players available. I think this whole Terry and Stack on the bench is just to say that we have the best bench in the league. I don't think it makes us any better sitting Terry and Stack on the bench than if they were starting.
1) Terry is out because he's really more geared to a point guard's role, and even then, from what I've seen, he's more of a slasher than a shooter. Ideally, the sixth man is able to come in in relief of either the 2 or the 3, depending on which position they need scoring from.

2) If Stack can maintain even close to the level of performance he's demonstrated of late, I think he'd be a better complement to the other players on the floor to start the game. His outside shot is almost as good as Fin's (sometimes better, even), and he clearly is superior at beating his man off the dribble, and getting to the hole for baskets or FTs.

3) Third, to be honest, I feel like Fin's maturity and mentality will allow him to be better in the 6th-man role than Stack's will. IMO, Stack is more likely to always feel slighted and be on the verge of being a malcontent than Finley, simply. Ultimately, I think this means that Stack gets traded. But while he's on the team, I think you get more out of him by starting him.

4) We come from things from different angles--I don't necessarily think you put your five best individual players out on the game to start the game--you look for the combination that's going to give you the best results, and that will allow you to shift into another gear once the flow of the game gets going. I think we saw last year that trying to start the five best individual players doesn't always work out. You need a mixture of skills, and players playing different roles. I think Stack's ability to get to the basket is a better complement to Dirk's all-around game to start the game, than Fin's ability to hit the 3. Taking nothing away from Fin, but with the current mix of players, I think he'd contribute more as the 6th man.
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Old 11-21-2004, 11:50 PM   #74
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Default RE: Fin Vs. Stack

In the last 3 games: Stackhouse is shooting 36% on 20-56 shooting. 0-8 from 3pt land.
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