Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Go Back   Dallas-Mavs.com Forums > Mavs / NBA > General Mavs Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-27-2012, 05:07 AM   #81
Budapest Maverick
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 2,207
Budapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple_Like_That View Post
For me; is safe to say that DC is not that good... I think he will be a great option for your bench, but not in the starting lineup. I also believe he is not a good fit with OJ... OJ need someone with size to play with him... to they switch positions in case he is facing the Paul George's or Joe Johnson's of the league.

I was reading some posts on nbadraft.net and someone posted about Tyreke Evans... I think this guy would be the perfect fit alongside OJ. Tyreke can penetrate even better than Collison and will open the floor for Dirk and OJ... also he still young and like OJ was never used well by his team... the guy was a machine in his rookie year (around 20-5-5 / another team smilar to OJ) and I think he can get back to that... This also solve the Cuban problem because Tyreke/OJ will be the future of the franchise when D41 retires... Think about it?! ... make sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUqlZq7Q4sM

Tyreke
OJ
Marion
Dirk
Kaman

Bench

Collison
Jones
Carter
Brand
Wright

The rookies.


A contender for sure... my only doubt is if there is any real chance a package Dojo + Beaubois + multiple picks can get him.
Tyreke is a terrible basketball player. He's a net negative, seriously. Most team is better without him, than with him. I would argue any team, that doesn't wanna use him as a 6th man. He needs the ball in his hand all the time to be even remotely effective, and that's never good if you are not Steve Nash, or Chris Paul. A team built around Evans and Mayo would have a hard time making the playoffs as a 7th, or 8th seed, once Dirk retires.
Budapest Maverick is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-27-2012, 09:50 AM   #82
Five-ofan
Guru
 
Five-ofan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
Five-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky View Post
I'll give you that DoJo has only played 108 min, Roddy 126, and Dahntay 151, but guys that have played almost 500 minutes-- that is hardly a "tiny sample size". So, no, you can't say that Roddy is better than a player who does have an adequate sample size, but you can say that a guy that has played that many minutes and who actually makes the team worse is a big question mark. Who would be better? I'm not sure we have anyone on the roster-- even if I thought we did, the sample sizes of all our alternates is so tiny.

I just think that we've seen Collison up close and he's little more than an early JJB and I wouldn't want JJB starting next to Dirk either. Early on JJB had no idea how to play in any team offense and at the end all he knew how to do was to look for his own shot, but was a decent spark plug off the bench as long as he was the offense. When he played next to Dirk, it was painful how bad he was at getting it to Dirk in a place that Dirk could use it.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see Collison being a guy like Antoine Walker that is as much as negative as a positive. He can win games some nights on his own, but more often his mistakes and inability to play point are going to kill us.
You do realize that collison is already significantly better than any version of jjb right? That's just hyperbole, I hope
Five-ofan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 10:34 AM   #83
DevinHarriswillstart
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 22,808
DevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond reputeDevinHarriswillstart has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Collison's ability to get Dirk the ball is the be-all and end-all of this discussion. If he can't do that, then he won't be back next season.
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy

DevinHarriswillstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 12:45 PM   #84
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan View Post
You do realize that collison is already significantly better than any version of jjb right? That's just hyperbole, I hope
I was not being hyperbolic at all and ANY version? I'd beg to differ.

Collison 12-13 vs. JJB 10-11

45.6/49.0% eFG%
33.3/38.9% clutch eFG%
43.6%/43.9% FG
33.3%/34.9% 3pt FG

88.2%/84.7% FT
8.6/9.2 AP48
3.5/3.9 TOp48
2.6/2.3 A/TO ratio
3.2/4.6 Rp48
7.0/9.7 pass rating
6.6/9.9 rebound rating
16.8/20.0 "hands" rating (a measure of bad passes, TOs, etc)
14.4/15.1 PER rating (player overall rating)
-1.6/3.9 net PER (player production minus opposing player's PER)


Collison only leads in three (3) statistical categories important for PGs. Three. Just look at all the stats that go JJB's way. I believe that the simple stats, when corrected for minutes played and advanced stats bear my point out quite well. I think you either undervalue JJB or overvalue Collison, because comparing JJB and Collison seems to be a solid move. Across multiple years, JJB and Collison are mirror images of each other with JJB taking the lead in many key categories.

Last edited by EricaLubarsky; 11-27-2012 at 12:59 PM.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #85
Five-ofan
Guru
 
Five-ofan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
Five-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky View Post
I was not being hyperbolic at all and ANY version? I'd beg to differ.

Collison 12-13 vs. JJB 10-11

45.6/49.0% eFG%
33.3/38.9% clutch eFG%
43.6%/43.9% FG
33.3%/34.9% 3pt FG

88.2%/84.7% FT
8.6/9.2 AP48
3.5/3.9 TOp48
2.6/2.3 A/TO ratio
3.2/4.6 Rp48
7.0/9.7 pass rating
6.6/9.9 rebound rating
16.8/20.0 "hands" rating (a measure of bad passes, TOs, etc)
14.4/15.1 PER rating (player overall rating)
-1.6/3.9 net PER (player production minus opposing player's PER)


Collison only leads in three (3) statistical categories important for PGs. Three. Just look at all the stats that go JJB's way. I believe that the simple stats, when corrected for minutes played and advanced stats bear my point out quite well.
It's funny that you used efg% instead of true shooting % since efg isn't really an advanced stat(I honestly don't know who had a better true shooting %. The thing is jjb played nearly every minute he played that year with dirk nowitzki AND He only played 20 minutes a game. You just can't pro rate that out and pretend like he would have maintained that level of play. The same way that I can't say that Brandon wright would be a 17 point a game scorer if he avged 35 mins a night
Five-ofan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 01:10 PM   #86
markus1234
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,675
markus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to beholdmarkus1234 is a splendid one to behold
Default

JJB was definitely much tougher. He took charges and attacked the basket...vs Bynum and co.

Collison is more like Roddy. Goes to the basket only in fast break situations. Too scared in half court.

Last edited by markus1234; 11-27-2012 at 01:13 PM.
markus1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 01:14 PM   #87
Fragism
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 499
Fragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to behold
Default

Barea played an entire season with Dirk. Collison has played 14 games with an entirely new roster without Dirk. Barea was also playing against second units while Collison is starting.

It's absurd to compare the two.
Fragism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 01:47 PM   #88
dirt_dobber
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bee Cave, Texas
Posts: 3,236
dirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond reputedirt_dobber has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky View Post
I was not being hyperbolic at all and ANY version? I'd beg to differ.

Collison 12-13 vs. JJB 10-11

45.6/49.0% eFG%
33.3/38.9% clutch eFG%
43.6%/43.9% FG
33.3%/34.9% 3pt FG

88.2%/84.7% FT
8.6/9.2 AP48
3.5/3.9 TOp48
2.6/2.3 A/TO ratio
3.2/4.6 Rp48
7.0/9.7 pass rating
6.6/9.9 rebound rating
16.8/20.0 "hands" rating (a measure of bad passes, TOs, etc)
14.4/15.1 PER rating (player overall rating)
-1.6/3.9 net PER (player production minus opposing player's PER)


Collison only leads in three (3) statistical categories important for PGs. Three. Just look at all the stats that go JJB's way. I believe that the simple stats, when corrected for minutes played and advanced stats bear my point out quite well. I think you either undervalue JJB or overvalue Collison, because comparing JJB and Collison seems to be a solid move. Across multiple years, JJB and Collison are mirror images of each other with JJB taking the lead in many key categories.
fantastic work

Quote:
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to EricaLubarsky again."
dirt_dobber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 01:57 PM   #89
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

It's absurd to compare? Really? I don't think it's "ridiculously unreasonable" particularly because JJB played 57% of his minutes without Dirk on the floor as a reserve. Of course, all the stats should be taken with a grain of salt because of the nature of the game, but to say that the stats don't matter AT ALL and that it is "absurd" just seems like hyperbole and a terrible misuse of the word.

Stats matter. They don't tell the whole story, obviously, and they should be tempered by the circumstances from which they are created. I'm not claiming that JJB is SUPERIOR to Collison, but I think giving a generous helping of numbers that actually paints JJB in a rosier light than Collison is evidence enough for 5-0Fan that the two can in fact be compared.

And for 5-0
Collison 52.8% TS%
JJB 53.5% TS%

JJB won the battle of TS%, too.

Last edited by EricaLubarsky; 11-27-2012 at 02:00 PM.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 02:04 PM   #90
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan View Post
It's funny that you used efg% instead of true shooting % since efg isn't really an advanced stat(I honestly don't know who had a better true shooting %. The thing is jjb played nearly every minute he played that year with dirk nowitzki AND He only played 20 minutes a game. You just can't pro rate that out and pretend like he would have maintained that level of play. The same way that I can't say that Brandon wright would be a 17 point a game scorer if he avged 35 mins a night
Did I claim that eFG% was an advanced stat? I was more looking at hands rating, rebound rating, PER/net PER as advanced stats and the rest as simple ones.

And TS?
Collison 52.8%
JJB 53.5%

Doesn't really change anything in my view. It shows a slight edge for JJB in yet another statistical category. Am I claiming that JJB is superior? No way. but I think giving that list of simple and advanced stats that actually makes JJB look like the better player at least refutes your point that

Quote:
collison is already significantly better than any version of jjb right?
Significantly better? Silly to compare? I think I refuted those points as well as could be expected. My biggest concerns were ability to make good decisions (pass rating/hands rating) and defense (net PER) and both of those are measured on an individual basis and show significant advantages for JJB. At least in that one-year sample JJB made better decisions and wasn't abused as bad by opposing PGs as Collison is so far this year.

Last edited by EricaLubarsky; 11-27-2012 at 02:13 PM.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 02:33 PM   #91
Fragism
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 499
Fragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky View Post
It's absurd to compare? Really? I don't think it's "ridiculously unreasonable" particularly because JJB played 57% of his minutes without Dirk on the floor as a reserve. Of course, all the stats should be taken with a grain of salt because of the nature of the game, but to say that the stats don't matter AT ALL and that it is "absurd" just seems like hyperbole and a terrible misuse of the word.

Stats matter. They don't tell the whole story, obviously, and they should be tempered by the circumstances from which they are created. I'm not claiming that JJB is SUPERIOR to Collison, but I think giving a generous helping of numbers that actually paints JJB in a rosier light than Collison is evidence enough for 5-0Fan that the two can in fact be compared.

And for 5-0
Collison 52.8% TS%
JJB 53.5% TS%

JJB won the battle of TS%, too.
Like I said, you're comparing the stats of a player who played off the bench for a champion team with one of the greatest power forwards of all time to a guy that has played 14 games with a fringe playoff team.

I never said that stats don't matter, but this isn't exactly fair.
Fragism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 02:44 PM   #92
Fragism
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 499
Fragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to behold
Default

Barea's first 14 games of the 10-11 season:

FG%: .343
3P%: .143
TS%: .416
eFG%: .366
TOV%: 13.3
AST%: 24.8

Collison's first 14 games of the 12-13 season:

FG%: .436
3P%: .333
TS%: .528
eFG%: .456
TOV%: 16.5
AST%: 30.6
Fragism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 03:04 PM   #93
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragism View Post
Like I said, you're comparing the stats of a player who played off the bench for a champion team with one of the greatest power forwards of all time to a guy that has played 14 games with a fringe playoff team.

I never said that stats don't matter, but this isn't exactly fair.
You said it was quote, "absurd" to compare the two of them as a response to the stats that I provided. I think that pretty much implies that you think that the stats don't matter or that somehow the fact that JJB played some of his minutes WITH Dirk or that that team was better somehow nullifies ALL the stats. It doesn't, but it puts even more stress on the fact that stats should be taken with a grain of salt and an understanding of the circumstances. There has yet to be a good measure of how players impact the game for others, so we can't just "correct for Dirk", but we can say that JJB's numbers would probably have been slightly worse without Dirk.

Still, the point isn't that Collison is worse than JJB, but that I have legitimate concerns about elements of JJB's game and that they both share those deficiencies in almost equal parts. Defense and passing were issues with both and the fact that their stats are about equal on the those two particular categories, I believe gives me the right to compare the two
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 03:16 PM   #94
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

So how about we compare JJB without Dirk and a championship team to Collison instead.You can argue that playing with Dirk and a championship team is the real reason that stats are silly, but it's hard to argue that the Timberwolves last year had a better team than the Mavericks have this year.

Collison 2013 vs. JJB 2012 (Wolves)
45.6/ 46.3 eFG%
33.3/33.3 clutch eFG%
8.6/10.8AP48
3.5/4.8 TOp48
2.6/2.3 A/TO ratio
3.2/5.3 Rp48
7.0/11.3 pass rating
6.6/10.7 rebound rating
16.8/22.8 "hands" rating (a measure of bad passes, TOs, etc)
-1.6/0.2 net PER (player production minus opposing player's PER)


JJB is still better in ball handling, passing, rebounding and better at defending or outperforming opposing PGs (as well as FG%, and rebounding/assist rate. Is he the better player? Again, I'm not saying that, but this data isolates the variable (Dirk and the "champsionship team") that you are claiming is nullifying data to the point that we can't draw comparisons. Even when you take the "Dirkfactor" away, JJB is still comparable. If you look at other seasons from Collison, the data is even more stark in comparison.

So, to win the argument that it's "absurd" to compare the two, I think you not only need to answer that data and also provide a reason that it's not only not true but there is actually reason to believe that any comparison is silly.

And I like your thinking on the early stats-- nice stats. I still don't think those numbers make it-- in your words--, "absurd" to compare the two and I'll even let you compare JJB's biggest slump of his career to Collison's freakishly good start. Compare the two stats that I was most concerned with (ballhandling/passing/defense) and you still get a pretty even playing field and not the stuff of absurdity.

Last edited by EricaLubarsky; 11-27-2012 at 03:24 PM.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 03:17 PM   #95
Budapest Maverick
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 2,207
Budapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragism View Post
Barea's first 14 games of the 10-11 season:

FG%: .343
3P%: .143
TS%: .416
eFG%: .366
TOV%: 13.3
AST%: 24.8

Collison's first 14 games of the 12-13 season:

FG%: .436
3P%: .333
TS%: .528
eFG%: .456
TOV%: 16.5
AST%: 30.6
This isn't exactly fair either, Barea had a super slow start that season, and Collison actually started this season great, and produced nice numbers, on nice efficiency in the first 5 games. Anyway, Collison is a better player, unfortunately, that still don't mean much. They are both terrible (and net negative) as starting point guards for a playoff team.

Last edited by Budapest Maverick; 11-27-2012 at 03:19 PM.
Budapest Maverick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 07:21 PM   #96
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Well, Carlisle may agree. Collison is now a bench player for at least a game.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:22 AM   #97
Fragism
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 499
Fragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to beholdFragism is a splendid one to behold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick View Post
This isn't exactly fair either, Barea had a super slow start that season, and Collison actually started this season great, and produced nice numbers, on nice efficiency in the first 5 games. Anyway, Collison is a better player, unfortunately, that still don't mean much. They are both terrible (and net negative) as starting point guards for a playoff team.
I think you missed my point which was that 14 games isn't enough to judge how a player will look for the rest of the season.

Barea looked like garbage for 14 games at the start of the season and then was a bright spot by the playoffs.
Fragism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:57 AM   #98
Budapest Maverick
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 2,207
Budapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant futureBudapest Maverick has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragism View Post
I think you missed my point which was that 14 games isn't enough to judge how a player will look for the rest of the season.

Barea looked like garbage for 14 games at the start of the season and then was a bright spot by the playoffs.
Yep, probably. I agree with you. Although, i guess then it's actually not a good sign that Collison started out this season great.
Budapest Maverick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 10:28 AM   #99
redzwestisbest
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 131
redzwestisbest is just really niceredzwestisbest is just really niceredzwestisbest is just really niceredzwestisbest is just really niceredzwestisbest is just really niceredzwestisbest is just really nice
Default

This is unfortunately why Pacers gave up on Collison. In today's NBA you have to be at least a decent shooter or at least be able to draw fouls, get layups, etc. His peak is what we see. Not a great shooter, gambles alot on defense, good ball handler, and sometimes disappears. He tries to do too much. He isn't that kind of player, he needs to just be a ball handler/distributor and again in today's nba, that is bench worthy. I still think he could work, but he will need to find a way to shoot a little better and not be so dumb on defense.

The Mavs had to try him out, but realistically, Delonte West and Ian would have fit better with the Mavs for the whole season. They had to trade Ian because they didn't want to pay him.

I truly believe the Mavs could have been 9-6 or better if they just simply kept Delonte West over anyone else on the roster as the first guard off the bench playing 25 mpg instead of having DoJo/Roddy/etc. They really could use someone they could rely on when healthy.

Last edited by redzwestisbest; 11-28-2012 at 10:32 AM.
redzwestisbest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 12:38 PM   #100
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redzwestisbest View Post
This is unfortunately why Pacers gave up on Collison. In today's NBA you have to be at least a decent shooter or at least be able to draw fouls, get layups, etc. His peak is what we see. Not a great shooter, gambles alot on defense, good ball handler, and sometimes disappears. He tries to do too much. He isn't that kind of player, he needs to just be a ball handler/distributor and again in today's nba, that is bench worthy. I still think he could work, but he will need to find a way to shoot a little better and not be so dumb on defense.

The Mavs had to try him out, but realistically, Delonte West and Ian would have fit better with the Mavs for the whole season. They had to trade Ian because they didn't want to pay him.

I truly believe the Mavs could have been 9-6 or better if they just simply kept Delonte West over anyone else on the roster as the first guard off the bench playing 25 mpg instead of having DoJo/Roddy/etc. They really could use someone they could rely on when healthy.
I think I mostly agree with you. Collison wouldn't be a terrible bench player because he certainly has a strong skillset, but I think JJB is the closest analogy I can draw. He has a hard time running an offense and his defense is extremely suspect. He gambles way too often, doesn't move his feet well and when he does make contact, it's way too late. JJB learned to make up for his physical deficiencies by learning to draw fouls (flop), but he was always a liability because of physical limitations.

I disagree that West would have been much better. West has a lot of the same issues even when his head is on right-- which it wasn't this year. West's defense is WAY better, but West also can't make smart passes, can't run an offense and other than individual offense. When he was on the floor without a PG accompanying him, he killed our offensive efficiency by like 15%. Everything ground to a halt and it became a 1-on-5 every time.

If we can alleviate the burden on Collison, he will be better. He's a skilled slasher when motivated (although I'd hesitate to say he has strong ball handling skills because of all the unforced TOs from dribbling into a defender or even dribbling it off his own foot), He has shown some skill in shooting from mid and long range early in this season and in his overall career. But no matter what he's going to be a liability defensively and he'll be an offensive liability simply because he has yet to show me a single team play that he can run. He is awful on the PnR, bad on the PnS, and doesn't have good instincts on the drop off or kick out. He gets himself into a lot of problems. As a floor general, he's about as developed as Roddy.

If we are stuck with him, which I think we are, then he needs to learn how to pass it to guys in the mid and low post (Kaman and Dirk) and to be able to run at least 2-3 rudimentary plays that aren't isos.

Last edited by EricaLubarsky; 11-28-2012 at 12:41 PM.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 12:43 PM   #101
sefant77
Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Brasil
Posts: 15,401
sefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond reputesefant77 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

If you want to compare them then take Bareas nine game stretch when Dirk was injuried in january 2011 and we went 2-7.

Team was the same mess back then...
sefant77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 12:49 PM   #102
EricaLubarsky
Inactive.
 
EricaLubarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 41,687
EricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond reputeEricaLubarsky has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sefant77 View Post
If you want to compare them then take Bareas nine game stretch when Dirk was injuried in january 2011 and we went 2-7.

Team was the same mess back then...
We didn't have nearly the supporting offensive cast then (Mayo/Kaman/Carter) beats Terry/Carter, but I think that that is a great analogy.
EricaLubarsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 01:14 PM   #103
dude1394
Guru
 
dude1394's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
dude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

The thing I saw from JJB (version 2) that I'm not seeing from collison is:
- Relentless lane penetration
- A much more physical presence, even if he is small. He's willing to get physical with guys offensively and defensively.
- Much more clever around the basket.
- Appears to be a heck of a better shooter.

So I would say that jjb would be quite a step up from the collison we've seen.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
dude1394 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #104
Five-ofan
Guru
 
Five-ofan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
Five-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
The thing I saw from JJB (version 2) that I'm not seeing from collison is:
- Relentless lane penetration
- A much more physical presence, even if he is small. He's willing to get physical with guys offensively and defensively.
- Much more clever around the basket.
- Appears to be a heck of a better shooter.

So I would say that jjb would be quite a step up from the collison we've seen.
Jjb is ridiculously overrated on this board
Five-ofan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 06:37 PM   #105
dude1394
Guru
 
dude1394's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
dude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond reputedude1394 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

So is Tyson, jkiddo, jet, Stevenson, Haywood, etc, etc. folks have differing views of what is important. I would swap jjb for collison right this instant and consider myself lucky.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
dude1394 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2012, 08:28 PM   #106
Five-ofan
Guru
 
Five-ofan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 10,016
Five-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond reputeFive-ofan has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
So is Tyson, jkiddo, jet, Stevenson, Haywood, etc, etc. folks have differing views of what is important. I would swap jjb for collison right this instant and consider myself lucky.
That would be a mistake
Five-ofan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 11:47 PM   #107
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/1...=iref:nbahpt6f

DALLAS – Darren Collison resumed the season as Derek Fisher‘s backup, a coaching decision he doesn’t like, but will have to live with.

Collison, benched Tuesday night after 14 games, said he didn’t receive a fair shot as the Dallas Mavericks’ starting point guard.

“I don’t think so, and we all know that; my teammates, they feel the same way, everybody feels the same way,” Collison said prior to Saturday night’s game against the Detroit Pistons. He made his first appearance midway through the first quarter and finished with five points and eight assists in 27 minutes.

“But, at the end of the day, coach, he makes the decision,” Collison said. “There’s nothing you can do about it but go out there and do your job.”

The Mavs went 7-7 with Collison running the point. He started the season on fire, leading an up-tempo attack and Dallas to a 4-1 record. He’s struggled since with a flat jumper and too many turnovers, as well as with individual defensive matchups.

Coach Rick Carlisle, apparently had seen enough and benched Collison Tuesday at Philadelphia, and then Collison missed Wednesday’s game at Chicago with a sprained right middle finger. It was Dallas’ third consecutive loss and its eighth in the last 11 games.

On Friday, Dallas signed Fisher to take over as the team’s starting point guard. Carlisle called the acquisition “a great situation” for Collison because the fourth-year point guard out of UCLA will be able to learn under the 38-year-old veteran, owner of five championship rings with the Lakers.

Collison said he’d prefer to learn through playing.

“I feel like at this point in my career, if there’s anything I need to learn it’s just go out there on the court and just learn from my mistakes,” Collison said. “That’s what a lot of young guards do, you go out there, you learn from your mistakes. As far as Derek Fisher, I think I can learn from him. He’s a great leader on and off the court. I’m looking forward to playing with him.”

Fisher hasn’t played since Game 5 of the last June’s NBA Finals with the Oklahoma City Thunder. He remained unsigned until Friday and went through one practice with his new Dallas teammates. Depending on Fisher’s conditioning, Collison could still be called on to play starter-type minutes.

Still, Collison didn’t hide the frustration of losing his job before December. It’s the second time in eight months that he’s dealt with moving to the bench. He lost his starting job at Indiana to George Hill after a late-season injury, a scenario Collison said was easier to swallow than this performance-based demotion.

“This is a little bit unique because I’ve never had a situation like this before,” Collison said. “I got hurt before, but not this type of situation. I know how to deal with it. I’ll be all right.”

When Dallas made the July trade with Indiana to get Collison, 25, they quickly tabbed him as Jason Kidd‘s replacement in the starting lineup. Carlisle said he has told Collison that he remains a major part of the team’s plans.

“Darren’s still one of our best players and I’ve made that clear to him,” Carlisle said. “One of the reasons we’ve had success here in recent years is we’ve had starting-caliber players playing off the bench. There are areas where Darren’s going to get better. I see him as a guy who is still developing and I can’t imagine a better situation for a point guard than being at practice every day with Derek Fisher.”

Collison is averaging 12.9 points on 43.8 percent shooting (31.6 percent on 3s), 6.3 assists and 2.5 turnovers. All 14 of his starts came without the benefit of Dirk Nowitzki, who remains out after knee surgery on Oct. 19.

“I’m mentally tough,” Collison said. “I think I’ve been through everything throughout my whole career. I pretty much know how to deal with adversity pretty well. As long as I don’t let it affect me than I should be all right.”
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 11:48 PM   #108
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-ofan View Post
Jjb is ridiculously overrated on this board
This.
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 11:51 PM   #109
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I mentioned this a couple weeks ago, but I'm a little concerned that Carlisle has taken this hardline approach with Collison that may actually damage the kid's potential with the Mavs. I'm not saying that DC shouldn't be mentally tough, but from things that I've read, heard Rick say, and seen...Rick has been hard on the kid.

I wonder if he is being too hard on him. I know Rick isn't known for his soft touch, but I wonder if he might get more with at least a little less vinegar if not a little honey.
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2012, 11:56 PM   #110
BGMaverick9
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
BGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sike View Post
I mentioned this a couple weeks ago, but I'm a little concerned that Carlisle has taken this hardline approach with Collison that may actually damage the kid's potential with the Mavs. I'm not saying that DC shouldn't be mentally tough, but from things that I've read, heard Rick say, and seen...Rick has been hard on the kid.

I wonder if he is being too hard on him. I know Rick isn't known for his soft touch, but I wonder if he might get more with at least a little less vinegar if not a little honey.
That's something Cuban would talk to him about if it really was an issue. This could be a case where Fisher could be the good cop. He can easily take that role on. But hey, if you're going to be an elite PG, you've gotta take tough criticism and be ready to roll on to the next one.
__________________
Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/BallinWithBryan/
BGMaverick9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:02 AM   #111
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9 View Post
That's something Cuban would talk to him about if it really was an issue. This could be a case where Fisher could be the good cop. He can easily take that role on. But hey, if you're going to be an elite PG, you've gotta take tough criticism and be ready to roll on to the next one.
I'm not saying that Rick is doing anything morally wrong, but wondering if he might get more out of the kid by taking a less hardline approach. (Rick might be lovey dovey with the kid behind closed doors.....but I kinda doubt it.)

Collison certainly needs to have tough skin.
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:06 AM   #112
nowhereman
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC
Posts: 4,712
nowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond reputenowhereman has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dude1394 View Post
I would swap jjb for collison right this instant and consider myself lucky.
Crazy how much people have shat on JJB on this board. I remember when 95% of the board wanted Roddy to play over him. He'd be an instant upgrade on this team as a backup PG.
__________________



Quote:
RT @TyLawson3 Good game between Dallas and Portland. Good thing we didn't end up getting Dallas. Coach Karl lost his mind.

Last edited by nowhereman; 12-03-2012 at 12:25 AM.
nowhereman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:14 AM   #113
BGMaverick9
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
BGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sike View Post
I'm not saying that Rick is doing anything morally wrong, but wondering if he might get more out of the kid by taking a less hardline approach. (Rick might be lovey dovey with the kid behind closed doors.....but I kinda doubt it.)

Collison certainly needs to have tough skin.
He's said on multiple occasions that he loves him as a person and let's him know that. They have a good line of communication. It's just up to Collison working on himself.
__________________
Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/BallinWithBryan/
BGMaverick9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:16 AM   #114
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9 View Post
He's said on multiple occasions that he loves him as a person and let's him know that. They have a good line of communication. It's just up to Collison working on himself.
That cool to know about Carlilse's feelings about DC as a person.

But its your opinion that Rick couldn't possibly be take the wrong approach w a player?
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"

Last edited by sike; 12-03-2012 at 12:18 AM.
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:20 AM   #115
BGMaverick9
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
BGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sike View Post
So its your opinion that Rick couldn't possibly be take the wrong approach w a player?
With any player? Sure. With him? I don't think so. Carlisle has let it be known how critical he is to their success. When Collison was doing well early, Carlisle cracked the whip and took him out when he saw something he didn't like. He's been consistent. When it was going good and Collison got pulled, he understood why he was. Whether DC is good or bad, Carlisle wants the standards and principles to be executed properly. Like I said, if it's THAT big of an issue, Cuban could step in. If Collison doesn't feel it's working, Fisher is likely going to recognize that and can probably figure out how to make it work.
__________________
Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/BallinWithBryan/

Last edited by BGMaverick9; 12-03-2012 at 12:24 AM.
BGMaverick9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:26 AM   #116
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9 View Post
With any player? Sure. With him? I don't think so. Carlisle has let it be known how critical he is to their success. When Collison was doing well early, Carlisle cracked the whip and took him out when he saw something he didn't like. He's been consistent. When it was going good and Collison got pulled, he understood why he was. Whether DC is good or bad, Carlisle wants the standards and principles to be in executed properly. Like I said, if it's THAT big of an issue, Cuban could step in. If Collison doesn't feel it's working, Fisher is likely going to recognize that and can probably figure out how to make it work.
I agree that Rick has been nothing if not consistent in his heavy handed handling of DC. I'm just wondering if that is the best way to handle him. I would be happy to praise Rick's approach if proven wrong, but so far, the kid looks a little shell shocked out there.

And none of this should be misunderstood as defending DC's shaky pg play of late.
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:28 AM   #117
jthig32
Lazy Moderator
 
jthig32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lazytown
Posts: 18,721
jthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond reputejthig32 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I agree with Sike; I'm concerned about this relationship. I love Rick, but he's inconsistent in what he expects out of his players. Troy Murphy is force fed minutes while absolutely killing the team for large stretches, while Collison is yanked all over the place any time he makes a mistake.

It has to be especially frustrating for Collison because he had the same situation last year, and I assume he thought he was going to get a little more leash on a team like this before he started getting sent to the bench for every mistake.

And as Sike said, it's not that I feel sorry for Collison. In fact, I think he needs to adjust his attitude and stop acting like being brought off the bench is the same as actually being benched. But I do, like Sike, question whether this is really the best approach in this situation.
__________________
Current Mavs Salary outlook (with my own possibly incorrect math and assumptions)

Mavs Net Ratings By Game
(Using BRef.com calculations for possessions, so numbers are slightly different than what you'll see on NBA.com and ESPN.com
jthig32 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:29 AM   #118
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

For example, I don't like seeing DC saying that he isn't getting a fair shake to be the starting PG in Dallas. http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/1...=iref:nbahpt6f
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"

Last edited by sike; 12-03-2012 at 12:29 AM.
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:42 AM   #119
BGMaverick9
Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
BGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond reputeBGMaverick9 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Like I said, this can be a spot where Fisher can help be that buffer. The problem is, Fisher is probably going to be tough on him, as well. I mean he's called him an above average player on multiple occasions in the few days he's been in town. I'm doubting Darren wants to hear himself classified as that. To this point, Fisher has followed that up with good words of wisdom. Collison just has to learn.

What the Mavericks want to do is have him learn through being taught and watching rather just having him try to do it on the run. They're trying to win games and stay afloat. They figured they couldn't afford to let Dojo and Roddy keep things going while Darren goes through his growing pains. They're hoping Fisher can bring the calming influence on the court (which it appears can happen), and have Darren see how it goes and then transfer that into his game, while still being aggressive.
__________________
Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/BallinWithBryan/
BGMaverick9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 12:55 AM   #120
sike
The Preacha
 
sike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Rock
Posts: 36,066
sike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond reputesike has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9 View Post
Like I said, this can be a spot where Fisher can help be that buffer. The problem is, Fisher is probably going to be tough on him, as well. I mean he's called him an above average player on multiple occasions in the few days he's been in town. I'm doubting Darren wants to hear himself classified as that. To this point, Fisher has followed that up with good words of wisdom. Collison just has to learn.

What the Mavericks want to do is have him learn through being taught and watching rather just having him try to do it on the run. They're trying to win games and stay afloat. They figured they couldn't afford to let Dojo and Roddy keep things going while Darren goes through his growing pains. They're hoping Fisher can bring the calming influence on the court (which it appears can happen), and have Darren see how it goes and then transfer that into his game, while still being aggressive.
Fingers Crossed
__________________

ok, we've talked about the problem of evil, and the extent of the atonement's application, but my real question to you is, "Could Jesus dunk?"
sike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
attention whore, democrats=pos, republicans=pos^3, smc = sucks many c*cks, smc rulz, wait till dirk comes back

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.