Im sorry guys, I dont see Kidd leading this team anywhere - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Bathouse Bear · 12-26-2009, 03:43 PM

This Mavs team will never be a championship calibur team with Jason Kidd running the show.

I know the homers on this site are gonna castrate me because Kidd is the real life emperor with no clothes.

Kidds lack of scoring ability and his pathetic perimeter defense are major obstacles to the Mavs getting to the same level as the Lakers or celtics.

Kidd cannot guard the quick point guards and when we have to put Barea or Terry on them...it only weakens their offensive game because they are having to extend so much energy.

Right now I would rank all these Western Conference point guards ahead of Kidd

Steve Nash
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Chris Paul
Aaron Brooks
Baron Davis
Deron Williams

What kills me is that if we had any of those players I think this Mavs team would be a legit contender for the NBA title.

Kante · 12-26-2009, 03:50 PM

Tell me a guy who can stop the quick PG´s?

Also, Kidd can defend the big 2´s which is a edge!

P.S.: Kidd is playing great so far in this Season, so stop that!

iella · 12-26-2009, 03:57 PM

Beginning of the season: too many appreciation threads

Middle of the season: too many knee-jerk hater threads

End of the season: ?????

Bathouse Bear · 12-26-2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

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Tell me a guy who can stop the quick PG´s?

Hint: He used to be our starting point guard here.

I know when we had him Tony Parker wasnt scoring 35 points in the first half of playoff games.

I just dont feel like watching Chauncey Billips murders us again.

sefant77 · 12-26-2009, 04:31 PM

Nash not even lead one of his teams into the finals.

And i stopped reading at Brooks name. The guy has one of the lowest basketball iqs in the league.

Baron Davis...lol

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 12-26-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Nash not even lead one of his teams into the finals.

And i stopped reading at Brooks name. The guy has one of the lowest basketball iqs in the league.

Baron Davis...lol

Maybe Brooks doesn't have the greatest basketball IQ but he came up big in the playoffs last year for Houston - managing to school Steve Blake and Derek Fisher in the process:

Game 1 @Portland: 10-17 for 27 pts
Game 4 vs. Lakers: 12-20 for 34 pts
Game 6 vs. Lakers: 8-13 for 26 pts

[The first one was the game by which Houston took home court advantage from Portland. Those last two against the Lakers were double-digit Houston wins w/o Yao & TMac...]

Another point I want to make here. Jason Kidd doesn't need to be a major offensive scorer for this team. He does a good job of running the offense, spreading the ball around, and knocking down the occasional three - that is all we need from him.

And the teams with speedy point guards will most likely not meet Dallas in the playoffs. My guess is that we face Deron Williams in the first round. Then we face Billups in the second round. And then Derek Fisher in the Conf. championship...

[I am assuming: 1. Lakers 2. Mavericks 3. Nuggets 4. Suns 5. Blazers 6. Spurs 7. Jazz 8. Rockets]

tcat075 · 12-26-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Nash not even lead one of his teams into the finals.

And i stopped reading at Brooks name. The guy has one of the lowest basketball iqs in the league.

Baron Davis...lol

If you stopped reading at Aaron Brooks, how did you know Baron Davis was on the list. He was listed below Brooks.

sefant77 · 12-26-2009, 05:33 PM

Blake and Fisher, wooow. The two worst starting pgs in the league.

Brooks is overrated. And with Yao they need someone that can deliver Yao the ball anytime anywhere. Brooks and Lowry not even can do that when a 6-8 guy is fronting yao....

tcat: I saw the name when i was done posting and got lazy

tcat075 · 12-26-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Blake and Fisher, wooow. The two worst starting pgs in the league.

Brooks is overrated. And with Yao they need someone that can deliver Yao the ball anytime anywhere. Brooks and Lowry not even can do that when a 6-8 guy is fronting yao....

tcat: I saw the name when i was done posting and got lazy

Gotcha. I understand now.

aurelino9 · 12-26-2009, 05:49 PM

Those who think Kidd doesn't play defense either don't know the game or aren't watching carefully. Kidd's only weakness on D is his lateral quickness, which is only a factor against ultra-quick PGs. Other than that, he is one of the top post-defenders for his size and excels at ball denial, pass interception and playing tough defense without fouling a lot. These qualities make him a great at defending big PGs and even SG/SFs at times. That, and he is one of the best team defenders in the league. He knows when to sag and help, apply hard/soft double team and rotate when his teammates make a mistake.

FYI, I don't know if you have watched Devin Harris this year. His defense has been pathetic and he's constantly lit up by opposing PGs (you should have watched him "defend" Flynn, a rookie, in their last game).

Whether or not the Mavs can win a title with Kidd at the point is another question. It has more to do with the overall team composition. Kidd is the oldest and only the 5th most paid player on the team and yet he's the second best player. Right now, I feel that the mavs lack a good backup PF/C and another wing player. Only time will tell whether they're good enough to go all the way.

Bathouse Bear · 12-26-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Another point I want to make here. Jason Kidd doesn't need to be a major offensive scorer for this team. He does a good job of running the offense, spreading the ball around, and knocking down the occasional three - that is all we need from him

I disagree. I think this line of thinking is why we are not a serious championship calibur team despite having one of the best rosters in the NBA.

Kidd does the best he can do...but this team is not the 02-03 Mavs. We dont have enough elite scorers where we can afford to play 3 on 5 (assuming Dampier is in the game).
Your statement made sense when we also had Mike Finley and Nick Van Exel who were more than capable of scoring 30 points.

Right now Dirk is the only guy on this team that is capable of scoring 25 whenever he wants. In the early part of this decade we had Fin, Nash, NVE and Dirk, and then we had JET, Stackhouse and Dirk....but right now Dirk is only elite scorer.

IF we had a point guard that a threat to:
A: Drive to the basket and score
B. Could hit an jumper coming off a screen
C. could make opposing point guards expend energy by having to guard him

We would be a much better team.

If we replace Kidd with chauncey Billips or Deron Williams (or really any elite point guard) we would be the best team in the league.

Even if we replaced him with a 2nd teir point guard such as Aaron Brooks, Devin Haris or Rajon Rondo I think that would instantly make us a 60 win team.

I will give Kidd credit...he can certainly fill up a stat sheet, but I dont think any of that helps us agains the elite teams.

I was at the Houston game the other night and Kidd didnt do a damn thing outside of make Aaron Brooks look like an All NBA player. He didnt hit that many shots in the crunch time and the opposing defense could cheat since he wasnt a threat to score.

I get home and read the boxscore and I was floored that Kidd was one bucket from a triple double after having 8 points, 10 assists and 11 rebounds.

My point in saying that, is that I could give a rats ass that Kidd gets a lot of rebounds or fills up a stat sheet. If he isnt a threat to score in the 4th quarter or the opposing teams point guard is killing us......then who give a chit that he almost got a triple double.

tcat075 · 12-26-2009, 05:53 PM

The man says we don't have enough scorers on a day where we have seven players in double figures. There's irony for you. Or is it just stupidity?

Bathouse Bear · 12-26-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

and yet he's the second best player.

Dampier and Jason Terry are better than Kidd.

When Josh and Marion start playing like they are capable they will also be better than Kidd.

You take Dampier off this team and we are not that good.

You replace Kidd with Barea or JET as the pg and id be willing to guess we would have a pretty similar record.

Kidd has gotten a pass his whole career for not being able to score because he does all these "intangibles" which at the end of the day dont count for chit in the playoffs.

Give me a point guard that can hit a jumper off a pick and roll anyday over a point guard that collects a lot of rebounds.

EricaLubarsky · 12-26-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Right now I would rank all these Western Conference point guards ahead of Kidd

Steve Nash
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Chris Paul
Aaron Brooks
Baron Davis
Deron Williams

So....whats the point of this post? Brooks is an idiot SG. No one else is available other than maybe Davis. We can whine about how bad Kidd is, but do we really need CP3? Hell no. This is Dirk's team and Kidd provides everything we need other than penetration. Kidd is a smart player that can find players, make up for having a smaller SG, defend well and provide rebounding.

Even if we did need a "top 7 in the West" PG to win, theres nothing to do about it. Why dont you continue to post doomsday posts demanding that we acquire players that are unacquirable? I think that that may be the direction in which you are heading.

and for the record we need chemistry and coaching more than we need anything.

BTW whats up with Fisher? Lakers must not have a chance either. Might as well give the trophy to the Celtics.

Dirkadirkastan · 12-26-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

The man says we don't have enough scorers on a day where we have six players in double figures. There's irony for you. Or is it just stupidity?

Seven.

Bathouse Bear · 12-26-2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

The man says we don't have enough scorers on a day where we have six players in double figures. There's irony for you. Or is it just stupidity?

Here come the jason kidd homers.

You criticize the emperor with no clothes and the name calling starts.

Newsflash: I dont care about the regular season.

I want to see how this team performs in the playoffs and I just dont think this team can be a championship calibur ball club with Jason Kidd running the show.

it seems like you Kidd homers completley forget Chauncey Billiups, Tony Parker and Chris Paul absolutley killing us in our last three playoff series.

Lucky for us Manu Ginobli was hurt or we would be on a 4 series losing streak with opposing point guard play being our biggest achillees heel in all four series.

EricaLubarsky · 12-26-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Why dont you continue to post doomsday posts demanding that we acquire players that are unacquirable? I think that that may be the direction in which you are heading.

...

fluid.forty.one · 12-26-2009, 06:07 PM

This is one of the worst threads ever.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-26-2009, 06:09 PM

^No kidding. I love how it's prefaced with all of us Jason Kidd Homers. Why create a controversial point without people being able to logically respond? If I defend Kidd, then I'm just a homer so there is no point at all to this....

Dirkadirkastan · 12-26-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Newsflash: I dont care about the regular season.

I want to see how this team performs in the playoffs and I just dont think this team can be a championship calibur ball club with Jason Kidd running the show.

I've seen this shtick before. "My armchair analysis is better than your empirical evidence because valid evidence can only be drawn from four months in the future."

sefant77 · 12-26-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Even if we replaced him with a 2nd teir point guard such as Aaron Brooks, Devin Haris or Rajon Rondo I think that would instantly make us a 60 win team.

I dont know if i should laugh or get pissed.

Changing Kidd for Brooks, are u serious. And if u didnt realize, Harris numbers are inflated because he is jacking up a lot of bad shots.

But i guess u think also Ariza is the MIP...

twistaeffect2004 · 12-26-2009, 06:28 PM

Didn't you post the same exact thread about a year ago? And surprisingly it's going about as well as it did then.

Time to give up maybe?

iella · 12-26-2009, 06:49 PM

Even if you hate on Kidd's lack of scoring ability, doesn't the thought of him tutoring Roddy (who CAN score) in the ways of passing and court vision make you salivate? I know this organization is in win-now mode, but it's nice to hope that we won't be the next New Jersey Nets when Dirk retires.

Murphy3 · 12-26-2009, 06:54 PM

Bathouse Bear does touch on something.. The Mavs could definitely use more scoring out of Kidd. You saw Kidd hurt the team offensively quite a bit when Howard was out. The Mavs were in desperate need of another scorer at times, but Kidd just couldn't help out in that area. This is one reason why JJB is valuable. Kidd just doesn't make teams pay often enough with his penetration. He can get the assist off of penetration, but he doesn't scare teams with his ability to drive and score. So yeah, Kidd has some major faults offensively. But, he is what the Mavs have got. I think the Mavs can with him, but his inability to score off of the dribble is concerning.

particleman · 12-26-2009, 07:18 PM

Calibur is not a word.

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 12-26-2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Blake and Fisher, wooow. The two worst starting pgs in the league.

Brooks is overrated. And with Yao they need someone that can deliver Yao the ball anytime anywhere. Brooks and Lowry not even can do that when a 6-8 guy is fronting yao....

tcat: I saw the name when i was done posting and got lazy

If single-handedly defeating the Lakers twice w/o Yao & TMac is not a big deal to you - we agree to disagree...

Brooks overrated? If I am not mistaken, it is only Rocket fans who think highly of him...

Other teams fronting Yao will create room for Scola and Landry to operate - giving them easy buckets. Even if that doesn't work, Scola and Landry both have a good midrange game. They will draw out the PF, leaving the paint wide open for a easy drive and score. In any case, I believe its no longer true that you can shut down Houston by fronting Yao...

Dirkadirkastan · 12-26-2009, 07:51 PM

Screw you and your lousy attempt to derail this fascinating thread into a Rockets debate.

Thomas86 · 12-26-2009, 07:54 PM

Baron Davis shouldn't even be on that last....the last time he played and cared was in the 2007 playoffs and he hasn't done anything since.

EricaLubarsky · 12-26-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Screw you and your lousy attempt to derail this fascinating thread into a Rockets debate.

I dont know what is worse: this whiny thread or the Rockets troll that keeps claiming he's a Mavs fan trying to turn this into a discussion of the Rockets and how good they will be if they ever, ever get healthy.

Rick41 · 12-26-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

This is one of the worst threads ever.

Absolute thread catastrophy.

tcat075 · 12-26-2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

I get home and read the boxscore and I was floored that Kidd was one bucket from a triple double after having 8 points, 10 assists and 11 rebounds.

My point in saying that, is that I could give a rats ass that Kidd gets a lot of rebounds or fills up a stat sheet. If he isnt a threat to score in the 4th quarter or the opposing teams point guard is killing us......then who give a chit that he almost got a triple double.

This part makes me laugh. I guess your right, though, who needs their point guards to get stupid stats like rebounds and assists, right? Or steals, who the hell cares about those? All that matters is points, points, points!!!!! Yeah, not so much.

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 12-26-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Screw you and your lousy attempt to derail this fascinating thread into a Rockets debate.

Ok, just to make you happy....I'll talk about the Mavs....

Kidd is one the best point guards in the league [i.e. he is a great passer/distributor and runner of the offense]. If you want someone who can score, you already have Dirk, Terry, Howard, JJB, and Marion. IMO, we already have enough scoring on this team. Plus if you need someone to guard the smaller quicker guards, you can always bring Roddy or someone else in. I don't see why this is a big deal....

Bathouse Bear · 12-26-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Didn't you post the same exact thread about a year ago? And surprisingly it's going about as well as it did then.

Time to give up maybe?

Try two years ago....and why the hell would i give up? The mavericks on court performance has proven me correct.

In the two seasons Jason Kidd has been on this team we've won 51 and 50 games and both seasons had to wait until the final week to make the playoffs.

Those two in totals have been our worst seasons since Cuban bought the team.

I was under the impression that we brought Kidd in here to be a championship calibur team and not a 6th and 7 seeded team.

Its my opinion that Jason Kidd is not the type of point guard that can lead a really elite team and my proof is the mavericks play the past three seasons.

I know when we go out in the first or second round this year fingers will be pointed at every player on this team except Jason Kidd.

Quote:

This part makes me laugh. I guess your right, though, who needs their point guards to get stupid stats like rebounds and assists, right? Or steals, who the hell cares about those? All that matters is points, points, points!!!!! Yeah, not so much.

Yes. Points are most important. At the end of the day your job is to score more points than your opponent.
I could honestly care less that he gets a bunch of rebounds if he cant keep the defense honest with his scoring ability.

Kidd type of game only works when you have two or three elite scorers like Shaq and Kobe or even Gasol and Kobe.

On a team like ours which is one elite player and bunch of role players we cannot afford to have a point guard that cant score and is a poor perimeter defender.

All that chit you just mentioned is overated fluff if you cant score. Its even worse when it gets to crunch time because players from opposing teams dont really respect his offensive abilities.

Dirkadirkastan · 12-26-2009, 09:46 PM

Have you been watching the games? Have you checked the standings? We're #2 in the West, not #6 or #7.

EricaLubarsky · 12-26-2009, 09:52 PM

Dirk is a scorer
Terry is a scorer
Howard is a scorer
Dampier has become a scorer
Thomas is a scorer
Gooden is a scorer

The idea that scoring more points is the key is oversimplified and adding another scorer doesnt add that point total to our season average. There are only a finite number of posessions and honestly having a smart PG that doesnt turn it over, and gets steals and rebounds gets us more posessions for the rest of the team to use. In fact the very idea that you would bring scoring into it is silly. There are legitimate criticisms of Kidd (that he cant penetrate anymore, etc) but scoring is one of the silliest.

Now the whole point is ridiculous anyway because you are listing players we can't in a million years acquire even if we had amazing trade pieces. You might as well complain we dont have Phil Jackson, Josh Smith, CP3, and Ray Allen on the team too. Its about as likely.

An equally stupid post proposal: we cant get anywhere with Terry at the 2. Elite teams have guys like Ray Allen and Kobe Bryant. We could get one of those guys or Damien Wilkins. Blah blah blah. Whine whine whine. etc etc

Take your stupidity elsewhere

RareMilk · 12-26-2009, 09:52 PM

Kidd wears his uniform every game day what do you mean he doesn't have clothes?

Flacolaco · 12-26-2009, 09:52 PM

This thread is why we have the reputation system.

darkwitzki · 12-26-2009, 10:40 PM

Sleep tight guys, we'll have fun tomorrow at Denver.

mavsfan1000 · 12-26-2009, 10:45 PM

Kidd doesn't need to be a scorer but he does need to be more of a 3 point threat as well as not standing around on offense all the time. I wish he would work on finishing as well. He is horrible at that.

tcat075 · 12-26-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Dampier has become a scorer

and why is this so? Mostly by great passes from Kidd. Alley oops and thread-the-needle passes don't show up in Kidd's points total, but that doesn't mean that he isn't helping this team score more than its opponent...