All-NBA Teams Announced

[mavsman55]

NEW YORK, April 25 – San Antonio Spurs’ forward Tim Duncan earned his seventh consecutive selection to the All-NBA First Team when the NBA announced the 2003-04 All-NBA teams today. Duncan is only the sixth player in NBA history to make the All-NBA First Team in each of his first seven seasons, joining Hall of Famers Elgin Baylor, Larry Bird, George Mikan, Bob Pettit and Oscar Robertson.
Duncan is the only player to finish this season ranked in the top 10 in points per game (23.3 ppg, 6th), rebounds per game (12.4, 2nd), blocks per game (2.68 bpg, 4th) and field goal percentage (.501, 10th). He also recorded more 30 point-15 rebounds games than any other player this season with seven.

Minnesota Timberwolves forward Kevin Garnett finished as the only unanimous All-NBA First Team selection as he was named on all 123 voters’ first team ballots. Duncan and Garnett were joined on the All-NBA First Team by Kobe Bryant of the Los Angeles Lakers and Jason Kidd of the New Jersey Nets at the guard positions and Shaquille O’Neal of the Lakers at center.

Garnett finished the season leading the NBA in rebounding average (13.9 rpg) and was tied for second in scoring average (24.2 ppg), both career-highs. He finished with 1,987 total points and 1,139 total rebounds, becoming just the fifth player in NBA history (and the first in 29 years) to lead the league in both total points and total rebounds. This is Garnett’s third career selection to the All-NBA First Team.

Bryant finished the season ranked fourth in the NBA with a team-leading 24.0 points per game enroute to his third consecutive All-NBA First Team selection. He helped lead the Lakers to a league-best 25-7 record following the NBA All-Star break. Bryant recorded his ninth career triple-double this season with 29 points, a season-high 14 rebounds and ten assists versus Washington on February 28.

O’Neal, named to his sixth All-NBA First Team, led the NBA in field goal percentage (.584), was seventh in blocked shots (2.48), 11th in scoring (21.5) and fifth in double-doubles (43). With three blocked shots versus Portland on April 6, O’Neal surpassed Manute Bol (2,086) for ninth all-time in career blocked shots.

Kidd, named to his fifth All-NBA First Team, led the NBA is assists (9.2 apg) for the fifth time in his career and became the first Nets player ever to lead the league in assists in back-to-back seasons. He registered 10 or more assists in a game 33 times and the Nets were 27-6 when he had 10 or more assists in a game. During the season, Kidd recorded nine triple-doubles, tying him with Larry Bird for fourth all-time with 59 career triple-doubles.

The All-NBA Second Team consists of the Indiana Pacers’ forward Jermaine O’Neal, Sacramento Kings’ forward Peja Stojakovic, Detroit Pistons’ center Ben Wallace, Minnesota Timberwolves’ guard Sam Cassell and Orlando Magic guard Tracy McGrady.

The All-NBA Third Team includes Dallas Mavericks’ forward Dirk Nowitzki, Indiana Pacers’ forward Ron Artest, Houston Rockets’ centerYao Ming, Milwaukee Bucks’ guard Michael Redd and New Orleans Hornets’ guard Baron Davis.

The 123-member voting panel of writers and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada consisted of national media members and members from each of the league’s 29 teams who regularly cover the NBA. The media voted for All-NBA First, Second and Third Teams by position with points awarded on a 5-3-1 basis.

[ddh33]

Congratulations to Dirk. I'm glad he wasn't overlooked this year. I thought he might be.

[grndmstr_c]

Yeah, it would have been a shame if they'd missed him. He didn't have his best year, but he was still good enough to easily be one of the Top 15 players in the league this year.

[LoveMyMavs14]

Nash had the next-highest point total....in other words, closest to making it without making it.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] He had 75 points and 3 first team votes.

[Epitome22]

The alleyoop.com team is as follows

First Team

G: Tracy McGrady
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Garnett
F: Tim Duncan
C: Shaquille O'Neal

Second Team

G: Sam Cassel
G: Ray Allen
F: Andrei Kirilenko
F: Elton Brand
C: Yao Ming

Third Team

G: Baron Davis
G: Stephon Marbury
F: Peja Stojakovic
F: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Zydrunas Illgauskas

According to Hoopsanalyst.com it should have been as follows

First Team

G: Tracy McGrady
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Garnett
F: Tim Duncan
C: Shaquille O'Neal

Second Team

G: Sam Cassel
G: Jason Kidd
F: Andrei Kirilenko
F: Jermaine O'Neal
C: Yao Ming

Third Team

G: Baron Davis
G: Allen Iverson
F: Vince Carter
F: Kenyon Martin
C: Zydrunas Illgauskas


And for the finale, the 82games.com All Plus/Minus team

First Team

G: Sam Cassel
G: Jason Kidd
F: Kevin Garnett
F: Brad Miller
C: Shaquille O'Neal

Second Team

G: Jamaal Tinsley
G: Reggie Miller
F: Richard Jefferson
F: Nene
C: Jeff Foster

Third Team

G: Kirk Hinrich
G: Baron Davis
F: Andrei Kirilenko
F: Ron Artest
C: Jason Collins

[HeatFan7]

The National Media or whoever votes for these teams are a complete joke. They need to let the players, or coaches vote. Someone who has actually played the game or knows it well as most coaches would, and not someone who is paid to report on sports.

[MavKikiNYC]

Definitely can't see McGrady higher than 3rd team.

[grndmstr_c]

According to Hoopsanalyst.com it should have been as follows

Okay, sure. I'll trust a site that has Dirk rated 8th among PF's and 19th overall. Give me a break.

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Okay, sure. I'll trust a site that has Dirk rated 8th among PF's and 19th overall. Give me a break.

"Shrug". I'm only the messanger. Not my site. You can take up your beef with him if you like. I know he posts pretty regularly in the APBR yahoo group run by Dean Oliver, the guy who wrote "Basketball on Paper"

[grndmstr_c]

I wasn't blaming the messenger, Epitome.

[mikel_ind]

In evaluating Nowitzki's season, I didn't look at last year, and I didn't look at this year's postseason. Now I could do the latter: he returned to last year's form, for 5 games.

But for the season, he was among the bottom 5 players in the whole league in "most improved": in other words, he took a big fall from last year.

Players listed at PF that I reckoned had a better year than Nowitzki: Garnett, Duncan, Jermaine, Brand, Martin; then its a virtual tie between Gasol, Randolph, and Dirk.

Would I trade Dirk for Elton, or for Kenyon? Probably not. I think he had a bad year (relatively speaking) because of his summer basketball commitment, last year. Also, the Antoine/Antawn experiment didn't pan out.

Dirk's numbers took a hit mostly in the scoring department (down some 5 pts). Did he make up for it with improved rebounding, passing, defense? No, he was down across the board.

[FreshJive]

Dude, your third team is a joke. A.I., Vince Carter, Big Z, and KMart? The East coast bias is quite obvious. Also, why don't you switch Kidd or Sam with McGrady to give each team a point gaurd and take an undeserving player out of the first team.

[mikel_ind]

I don't know what the joke is, but I certainly don't have an "east coast bias" or any other kind of bias.

The West makes up 4 of 5 first-team members, and 7 of the top 10.

I didn't actually form these teams; I sent Hoopsanalyst.com my annual "top 100 list", and he spread them out by position. I think I actually had Brand ahead of KMart.

If it were up to me to form allstar teams that actually played, I would take the best players, regardless of position. To me, the joke is a Jamaal Magloire on an allstar team, just because he is one of the few centers with some Game.

Since I don't watch a lot of TV, I rely on stats to know who's doing what. Stats don't tell us everything, but I can tell you that Vince Carter had a good year, whether or not you are aware of it.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: mikel_ind
In evaluating Nowitzki's season, I didn't look at last year, and I didn't look at this year's postseason. Now I could do the latter: he returned to last year's form, for 5 games.

But for the season, he was among the bottom 5 players in the whole league in "most improved": in other words, he took a big fall from last year.

Players listed at PF that I reckoned had a better year than Nowitzki: Garnett, Duncan, Jermaine, Brand, Martin; then its a virtual tie between Gasol, Randolph, and Dirk.

Would I trade Dirk for Elton, or for Kenyon? Probably not. I think he had a bad year (relatively speaking) because of his summer basketball commitment, last year. Also, the Antoine/Antawn experiment didn't pan out.

Dirk's numbers took a hit mostly in the scoring department (down some 5 pts). Did he make up for it with improved rebounding, passing, defense? No, he was down across the board.

It's hard for your passing to be up when the offense suddenly runs through you alot less than in the past. It's difficult for your rebounds to go up whenever your team is loaded with good rebounders for the first time in your career. It's difficult for your scoring to go up whenever you're shooting less and getting significantly less touches.

Jermaine O'Neal is overrated. Brand puts up hollow numbers. Martin would only be slightly above a middle of the rung PF in the West.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by: mikel_ind
In evaluating Nowitzki's season, I didn't look at last year, and I didn't look at this year's postseason. Now I could do the latter: he returned to last year's form, for 5 games.

But for the season, he was among the bottom 5 players in the whole league in "most improved": in other words, he took a big fall from last year.

Players listed at PF that I reckoned had a better year than Nowitzki: Garnett, Duncan, Jermaine, Brand, Martin; then its a virtual tie between Gasol, Randolph, and Dirk.

Would I trade Dirk for Elton, or for Kenyon? Probably not. I think he had a bad year (relatively speaking) because of his summer basketball commitment, last year. Also, the Antoine/Antawn experiment didn't pan out.

Dirk's numbers took a hit mostly in the scoring department (down some 5 pts). Did he make up for it with improved rebounding, passing, defense? No, he was down across the board.

So you are basing your argument on stats mostly? Well sure Dirk´s stats are worse then last year. But even after that drop off he´s one of the top players statisticly. Don´t think so? Simply go and check out all of the stats based player ratings across the net.

Magicmetric has him 6th overall in terms of statistical production, 3rd at PF trailing KG and TD.
Sportsline has him 4th overall, 2nd at PF trailing only KG.
Tendex has him 5th overall, 3rd at PF trailing KG and TD.

With last years production he would have been 2nd overall at both magicmetric and sportsline this year (last year he was 6th). Except for KG there´s been a general dropoff this year. So in perspective, even with his injury problems and his relatively subpar year Dirk is just where he was last year stat wise when compared to other top NBA players.

For the playoffs he´s second overall trailing only KG on all player raters. Last year he was also 2nd overall for the playoffs trailing TD.

So basicly you are way off base by not including Dirk to your teams. In fact he should been 2nd team again this year right behind KG and TD, at least based on stats. If you are talking personal favorites or something like that it´s another story. But you made it sound you´ve been objective which you were not.

Your list is flawed in a couple other ways too. K-Mart, Carter? But leaving out Dirk, Brand or even Marion? Puhleeeze... and there are a couple other guys I´d take before AI at guard too...

[mikel_ind]

[So you are basing your argument on stats mostly? Well sure Dirk´s stats are worse then last year. But even after that drop off he´s one of the top players statisticly. Don´t think so? Simply go and check out all of the stats based player ratings across the net.]

If you are suggesting that all-NBA lists are and should be popularity contests, then you miss the point of what I'm trying to do. I deliberately ignore what others have to say and thereby avoid being influenced.

You say "Dirk's stats are worse than last year", and that's basically what I've said. He also plays the most talent-filled position in the league. The 9th-best PF in the league is considerably better than the 3rd-best center (whoever that is).


[Magicmetric has him 6th overall in terms of statistical production, 3rd at PF trailing KG and TD.
Sportsline has him 4th overall, 2nd at PF trailing only KG.
Tendex has him 5th overall, 3rd at PF trailing KG and TD.]

[With last years production he would have been 2nd overall at both magicmetric and sportsline this year (last year he was 6th). Except for KG there´s been a general dropoff this year. So in perspective, even with his injury problems and his relatively subpar year Dirk is just where he was last year stat wise when compared to other top NBA players.]

If Duncan isn't a close 2nd to Garnett, then I have an idea what is wrong with these other rating systems.

Either they are merely adding statistical totals, or they use per-minute or per-game rates that aren't adjusted for game pace.

Duncan played for (anchored) the league's best defense. Nowitzki's Mavs had the worst defense in the league.

I can't assign individual defensive ratings. But I do assume that players who play major minutes are contributors to either good or mediocre defenses. As such, all Mavs players are "overrepresented" by their stats. All Spurs are "underrepresented"

It's a fairly straightforward adjustment to make. I use a ratio of the opponent PPG and an arbitrary 100 PPG, and this factor raises good defensive (low pace) teams, while deflating high-pace/bad-D teams.

Actually, my system will correct for "general drop-off" across the league, and most players' ratings will be adjusted upward, relative to a higher-scoring season.


[For the playoffs he´s second overall trailing only KG on all player raters. Last year he was also 2nd overall for the playoffs trailing TD.]

That's where I had him, too (a few days ago).

In fact, after a slow start to the season, Dirk picked up steam; and for the playoffs he was great. But he wasn't that great all year long.


[So basicly you are way off base by not including Dirk to your teams. In fact he should been 2nd team again this year right behind KG and TD, at least based on stats. If you are talking personal favorites or something like that it´s another story. But you made it sound you´ve been objective which you were not.]

On a Mavs message board, how many Mavs do I have to put on the all-NBA teams, to be "objective".

Pardon the sarcasm, but "based on stats" obviously means different things to different people. I've been doing this many years, and am pretty comfortable with the way I do it.

The other ratings lists you referred to will have outrageous placements that you haven't mentioned. But they rank Dirk highly, so for that one fact, you like them.


[Your list is flawed in a couple other ways too. K-Mart, Carter? But leaving out Dirk, Brand or even Marion? Puhleeeze... and there are a couple other guys I´d take before AI at guard too...]

I didn't "leave out" anyone. In fact, I'd take several guys before Iverson; and I did.

[NBAFan7]

Where do you have Odom?

[NBAFan7]

He plays the power forward position for my team, the Miami Heat.

[mikel_ind]

Lamar Odom was one of the 5 most-improved players, from last year, on my list.

My source lists him as a SF, and he's #3 behind Kirilenko and Carter.

If you just call him a "forward", he's #8 at that position. And #16 in the NBA overall.

[NBAFan7]

I will give you Kirilenko, mainly because he made the allstar team but as far as pts, rbs, assist, Lamar did better than AK47 but ill give you that 1. But Carter, when his team was awful? I don't know. I'm curious to see your whole list, and your rankings. If Odom is 16th overall, he would be 1st player on the 4th All NBA team in your eyes? Interesting...

Can you please post your rankings, thanks in advance.

[mikel_ind]

A sincere inquiry is always welcome.

I haven't tried copying a list in this forum, but I'll give it a shot.

48.8 Kevin Garnett Min
47.6 Tim Duncan SA
39.8 Shaquille O'Neal LAL
39.6 Jermaine O'Neal Ind
37.0 Tracy Mcgrady Orl
36.7 Kobe Bryant LAL
36.6 Yao Ming Hou
36.6 Andrei Kirilenko Uta
36.5 Sam Cassell Min
36.1 Jason Kidd NJ
35.9 Baron Davis NO
35.8 Allen Iverson Phl
35.8 Vince Carter Tor
35.0 Elton Brand LAC
34.3 Kenyon Martin NJ
34.1 Lamar Odom Mia
33.5 Pau Gasol Mem
33.3 Zach Randolph Por
33.3 Dirk Nowitzki Dal
33.1 Paul Pierce Bos
32.7 Chauncey Billups Det
32.6 Stephon Marbury NY
32.6 Ray Allen Sea
32.3 Ron Artest Ind
31.9 Predrag Stojakovic Sac
31.7 Carlos Boozer Cle
31.5 Donyell Marshall Tor
31.4 Richard Jefferson NJ
31.1 Amare Stoudemire Phe
31.0 Ben Wallace Det
30.9 Chris Webber Sac
30.9 Shawn Marion Phe
30.7 Lebron James Cle
30.7 Rasheed Wallace Det
30.7 Erick Dampier GS
30.6 Emanuel Ginobili SA
30.4 Zydrunas Ilgauskas Cle
30.3 Steve Francis Hou
30.2 Richard Hamilton Det
30.1 Brad Miller Sac

Vince Carter's raw numbers get a boost from the fact he played for a low-points-allowed team. No matter that Toronto was outscored by 3 PPG; their 88.5 PPG allowed was 5th-lowest in the league. Carter's per-36-minute points are multiplied by 100/88.5, so he looks pretty good.

The Raps were also the league's worst rebounding team. But that's not a big part of Vince's game; so his rebound average is notched down a hair, no big deal.

[NBAFan7]

I'd be interested in seeing how you came up with the rankings. I'd think Lamar had a better year than Kenyon Martin. What's the formula you use, etc. Thanks in advance....

[mikel_ind]

Odom had a career year; so did Martin. And their relative ranking is so close, if they'd played an 83rd game, it's a tossup.

I can't really go into the complexity of my formula: it's actually a series of formulas applied to every available stat; and another which adds them all up.

In the "rankings" business, we talk about a ranking system needing to pass the "laugh test". Being a free country, we can laugh about whatever we want; but overemphasizing a thing like FG% (for example) can make Brent Barry look better than Kobe Bryant.

Also, I don't care what Shaq's 3-point % is. Or whether Tinsley can dunk.

Other things I DON'T take into consideration are the circumstances of a player's role. If Dirk isn't getting the ball as often, or someone else is clogging the middle, that's not my problem; it's his problem (and the organization's). All I measure is Productivity, however it is gotten. If you are productive, you rate.