RealGM - Lonestar Ronnie?

[orangedays]

Article: http://realgm.com/src_goaltending/69...nestar_ronnie/

Haven't the Mavs made it abundantly clear that we are not interested in Ron? Is it possible that there are new developments in the works (Walsh calling and begging us to reconsider)...or this guy is just pulling stuff out without reading other news. Would we be willing to part with Howard and Van Horn for Artest?
__________________________

So all the talk of late has been about Ron Artest; his trade demand and where he might end up, more specifically.

So what of it? Artest's trade demand was just the latest in a long line of ridiculous antics and this latest one is trumped only by the conflict at the Palace. Trade demands, at least public trade demands, are one of the worst things a player can do to his team and are just cause for immediate loss of any and all respect the player once commanded.

Fortunately for Indiana, Donnie Walsh is a patient man and he's working with Larry Bird, so something that benefits Indiana will be the final result. Will they get even value, as in another All-Star? Probably not, but the depth and individual pieces they'll get should actually improve the team.

Donnie Walsh and the Pacers are probably looking at mostly Western Conference teams so that they only have to see Artest twice a year unless both teams make the Finals.

So where is Artest going to go? There has been a great deal of speculation in the time since Artest first made it clear that he wanted a trade. The Timberwolves, Raptors, Lakers, Nuggets (although that rumor has apparently been laid to rest now), Warriors... the list goes on. Donnie Walsh himself has said he has been in communication with 17 or 18 different teams.

Most likely, not all of those have been serious inquiries but still, he's talking to a good chunk of the league. Why, you may ask? Because despite his various mentality issues, Ron Artest is an excellent player. He's developing as an offensive threat every year, he's a decent rebounder, a good passer and he's one of the best defensive players in the league. He's also built like a tank and is only 27 years old, so he's got plenty of juice left in him and he'll be effective his whole career, barring injury or suspension.

The trade I really like that I've seen bandied about is Josh Howard and Keith Van Horn for Artest and Austin Croshere. It works straight-up under the salary cap, but there's the possibility either Dallas might toss in a second-rounder or something to encourage the Pacers to do this.

Austin Croshere has been playing what might be called the best ball of his career. He may not be matching his best scoring numbers but he's shooting well from all over, rebounding well... In short he's getting it done as a contributor, which is more than can be said of some of his past seasons. He's tall, he can shoot, he can hit the glass, he's a useful player and his contract runs this year and next year before expiring. Artest's skills are well-documented and Dallas' need for a potent starting-caliber defensive wing is pretty clear.

Josh Howard is pretty good but Artest is better. As far as Dallas is concerned, they don't lose out too terribly on Van Horn's expiring deal and they get back a serviceable player in a similar style as well as an upgrade over Howard.

From Indiana's perspective, this trade works also works quite well; Van Horn is a large expiring contract but he's also the more experienced version of Croshere. Van Horn can stick threes, rebound, hit shots off screens, etc. So he'll be useful in stretching the D and dragging it away from Jermaine O'neal. So will Josh Howard, who's shooting a hair under 38% from downtown as I right this. On Dallas, he's a 15 ppg scorer who's grabbing 7 rebounds (and more rebounding can't hurt Indiana) and scoring at a reasonable clip (just over 44% from the floor). He's young, athletic, a hard worker and passes well, what's not to like?

This is a trade that works out well for both teams. There are others, of course... oh so many others.

I've been hearing a lot of "Artest for Odom" type rumors as well and that's an interesting thought too. The Lakers could use another strong wing defender and could certainly use someone like Artest who's looking to be a scorer as well. Kobe Bryant needs all the help he can get to turn the Lakers around and achieve anything in L.A. without Shaq, so a guy who's got the mentality to score is definitely a positive. Artest can drive, post, spot-up a bit (though he's better as a post scorer, he has improved his jumper since the beginning of his career) and in general make a nuisance of himself while locking down the opponent's best wing scorer. Suddenly, Kobe is freed to guard the lesser of the two players and he's got so much more energy for help defense and offense that he can enter a new tier of play. As far as the Lakers are concerned, any scenario in which Artest arrives and Kobe stays should be a positive. There are two styles to these kinds of trade proposals: the straight-up and the mediated.

In the first, you get to see a lot of deals like this basic one I'm about to propose.

Have a look at Odom and Mihm for Artest and Bender, for example.

On the surface, the Lakers lose a 12 and 6 big man and will be forced to rely more on Kwame Brown, which is a sketchy endeavor at best given his history and his play so far this season. In Mihm's stead, they pick up a guy who's all but signed the paperwork saying he's going to retire in Bender. It's a shame, too, because Bender is a brilliant talent waiting to explode if he could ever stay healthy.

So why would the Lakers do this? Artest can be a more effective post scorer than Mihm, he of the foul-line jumper. Plus, the increase in wing defense alone should be sufficient for the Lakers to forget about Mihm's absence and Artest is actually a comparable rebounder to Mihm. Furthermore, Bender represents a significant chunk of cap space that the Lakers can cut (either once he retires or after his contract runs out after next season), which will help them add pieces to the team and improve their depth. He won't put them under the cap by himself of course but his contract is double the size of Mihm's and if it vanishes, the Lakers are eight million dollars closer to where they need to be and that's not a bad deal at all.

So that's the deal from the Lakers' point of view, why would Indiana pull a trade like this? Mihm and Odom represent a significant depth addition to their frontcourt and a lot more rebounding. Odom in particular adds another distributor and ball-handler, something the Pacers could certainly use. Neither is a potent perimeter scorer but Odom can score on the block pretty well and that will help take the pressure off of Jermaine O'Neal. Odom makes up for Artest's offense, or nearly so, and he's among the most versatile players in the league. The Pacers have to be expecting a drop in the caliber of defense they see from their wing player (even if they pull a trade like the Dallas one and get a good wing defender like Josh Howard back). In Indiana, Odom doesn't have to be a scorer though, and that's big for him. When he's not featured as a primary option (and he wouldn't be, with Jermaine O'neal and Stephen Jackson both ahead of him), he could fit in comfortably as the third scorer and focus on rebounding and passing, two things he's great at whether he's scoring or not. And on those nights when his outside shot is falling, Indiana will be a dangerous team.

It's a decent deal but a straight-up trade probably wouldn't work between Indiana and the Lakers, so we come to the mediated deal.

I'm a Toronto Raptors fan, so let's explore a Toronto-Indiana-L.A. trade, just for fun. I've seen about a billion of these in the last little while.

Let's examine the following trade:

Toronto sends Jalen Rose to the Lakers and send Aaron Williams and Loren Woods to the Pacers. They receive Kwame Brown and Austin Croshere.

The Lakers send Lamar Odom to the Pacers and Kwame Brown to the Raptors, receiving Ron Artest and Jalen Rose.

The Pacers send Austin Croshere to the Raptors and Ron Artest to the Lakers, receiving Aaron Williams, Loren Woods and Lamar Odom.

Why for each team?

Toronto gets a useful player in Croshere who also represents a chunk of cap space. More importantly, they get Kwame Brown. At this point in his career, it's pretty fair to say Kwame wasn't worth the number one pick. For whatever reasons, mostly his own mental blocks, he isn't what he could be. But Toronto doesn't care about that. So long as he plays tough man defense, grabs some rebounds and scores a bit, the Raptors are OK with this. Croshere easily replaces Rose and gets paid about half what Jalen does, so the Raptors should be content with 7 and 6 out of Brown, which seems to be where he's at in his career. For Kwame, it's not the greatest that just as he has found Kareem's coaching he gets moved but Alex English is a pretty good coach as well. Anyway, the Raptors won't depend entirely on Kwame for any one thing, which is a good start, and they can afford to give him touches and play him as a center. They can simplify things for him. They may even let him score facing the basket, which is his most efficient mode of offense and always has been. Whatever the case, he's a seven-footer who defends well and can rebound a bit and the Raptors are STARVING for a player like that, even if he isn't the next greatest thing.

Why for the Lakers? Because they address most of their major problems. Artest will contribute as much as a rebounder as Kwame did, adding more post offense and brilliant perimeter D. He also comes in as the second scorer. Rose would probably come in as the 6th man but he can also play the point a little. More importantly, he can score on the block or from the perimeter and can stretch defenses to give Artest and Kobe more room with which to work their offensive skills. Plus, they'll be able to afford to rest Kobe or Artest for longer periods of time because Rose can still carry the offensive load off the bench. He's a defensive liability but Kobe and Artest should be able to more than accomodate his lack of D. As an aside, Phil Jackson has always liked big guards with ball-handling skills and a shot, so boom, as long as Rose plays decent help defense, he'll fit in perfectly and the Lakers are flying. With a rotation of Artest, Bryant and Rose on the wing, the Lakers have potent offense, ridiculous defense (except from Jalen) and will be a lot better than they were beforehand.

So why do the Pacers do this? Primarily because their frontcourt depth gets insane. Aaron Williams is sort of your conventional 12th man and Loren Woods isn't anything super-special himself but their six fouls and some rebounds if nothing else. Loren Woods can stick a fifteen-footer and fill out a roster. The main thing is Odom, whom I've already discussed. His versatility addresses everything the Pacers need aside from a perimeter threat.

So what's the verdict? If I were Donnie Walsh and sitting on the Dallas deal and this one, I go with the Dallas deal for sure. This deal isn't exactly world-shaking for the Pacers, though it's spectacular for the Raptors and the Lakers. Walsh has the opportunity to be patient and wring the best deal he can out of the rest of the league and he probably will, with Larry Bird's assistance.

At this stage in the game, the Pacers are still just talking. There's been a lot of noise about Golden State, but if they're unwilling to move Troy Murphy as they've said, then there really isn't much they can do for the Pacers. You could look at a deal for Dunleavy as that perimeter threat but he's not a good defender at all and his shot hasn't been there at all this year.

The real issue is, as ever, Artest's ability to control himself. He has been compared to other players in professional sports, guys like Albert Belle and Dany Heatley.

Heatly, for those who aren't NHL initiates, accidentally caused the death of his best friend Dan Snyder in a car crash (while sober). He was driving a Ferrari and struck a wall, hurting himself pretty severely and killing his passenger (Snyder actually died about a week later).

But the comparison doesn't really stand; Heatley may not be the Tim Duncan of the NHL but he's no Ron Artest either. He made a mistake; a really big, terrible mistake that cost one of his friends his life but he's not the same kind of headcase that Artest is. He was definitely humbled by the incident.

The city of Atlanta supported Heatley during the aftermath while he contended with an investigation that could have ended with him serving 15 years in prison for vehicular homicide. The thing that really irked people about him was not the crash but that he demanded a trade after. In this, he and Artest are similar, both having expressed a desire to be moved from their team but that's about it. Artest is a loaded gun with no safety, carrying with him the potential to go off and do damage at any time. He breaks cameras, punts the ball, he asks for time off to promote his rap album, he hits fans, etc. He's just a constant, running series of incidents detrimental to his team and his own image.

Artest is his own class of headcase. OK, perhaps not entirely his own; Dennis Rodman is a more useful comparison, though I've never seen Artest don a wedding dress.

In the end, Artest's mental state hasn't affected teams that much. There are reportedly over a dozen different teams looking into an Artest trade and even if that is mostly token interest, the thought is there, teams are willing. So Walsh has the upper hand and can wait this out right up until the deadline.

[jayC]

The bottom line is this if you see it in the papers it isn't going to happen.

[spreedom]

The Lakers and Raptors trade would be a lot of fun to see.. I'm not a huge fan of Odom's game but he seems like a guy that could be a pretty good second of third option for the Pacers as long as he's busting his ass on the defensive end.

Meanwhile, the Lakers would be a lock to make the playoffs as long as Artest shows up.. a triangle with Rose, Artest, and Kobe would be incredible. I'd even stick Rose in as the point there and start him over Smush Parker. Jalen Rose can still flat-out play.

Meanwhile, Toronto.. well, they can't get much worse.

[Dirkenstien]

blah. It'll never happen and thankfully it won't

[snoop]

wont happen dallas wont do artest straight up for j-ho

[Drbio]

The Mavs have made it abundantly clear that they are not interested in Artest.


Apparently, the Pacers aren't interested in trading him any time soon either. What's up with this delay? Walsh said he would be traded within a week when they suspended him.

[thewillis12]

kobe and artest together??
i'd love to see that team self destruct with artest. =D

[Scoobay]

has artest guarded dirk for any stretches in past? just wondering how he might have fared against him...

[Drbio]

How long do you think Artest would put up with the rapist selfishness?

[MavKikiNYC]

Vescey reports that the ball is in Sacto's court regarding a Peja for Artest trade--that Indiana will make the deal if the Kings are willing.

[kg_veteran]

If Howard/KVH for Artest/Croshere were on the table, I don't know that Dallas would be able to walk away.

[samoan-maverickII]

Do that deal a hundred times out of a hundred. IMO that's an upgrade in each position. Croshere is better than Van Horn rebound wise, efficiency wise, and he's not a bitch when it comes to getting hurt.

[kg_veteran]

Ron for Peja is done...

[spreedom]

Artest/Croshere for Howard/KVH is a good deal if Artest is guaranteed to re-sign for Howard-level money.. but I would be shocked if he'd be content as the second or third option here..

[MavKikiNYC]

but I would be shocked if he'd be content as the second or third option here..

If he can't see himself playing second fiddle to a guy like O'Neal whom he considered a friend, something tells me he'd have real problems deferring to Dirk's superior talent, and having to meld his game with better all-around players like Howard and Harris may soon become.

Artest on the Mavericks woulda been a disaster.

Adelman can hardly wait to get out of there, I bet.

[pickupyonuts]

artest turned down the trade so it is not done...kings say no

[kriD]

An active day for the inactive Pacer

Artest-Stojakovic trade with Kings on hold

By Mark Montieth
mark.montieth@indystar.com

The most confusing, frenzied day in the Ron Artest trade watch ended the way it began: without a deal.

A swap of Artest for Sacramento's Peja Stojakovic appeared imminent Tuesday afternoon after Artest's agent, Mark Stevens, told The Star that it was pending league approval.

By early evening, media reports claimed the swap of two former All-Star forwards was off because Artest had vetoed the move. The Sacramento Bee, citing sources close to the deal, reported that Stevens called the Kings and told them Artest did not want to play there.

Artest told The Star he was not opposed to playing in Sacramento, or anywhere else, but wanted to meet with officials from whichever team he goes to.

"It's not that I don't want to play there . . . I'm letting my agent handle things," said Artest, who was placed on the inactive list by the Pacers on Dec. 12 after he requested a trade. "I just want to meet with team officials of whichever team I'm headed to."

Ultimately, the trade was left up in the air after Artest and Kings co-owner Joe Maloof said they had not rejected the idea.

"It's not over," Maloof told the Bloomberg News agency. "It's not dead yet. We'll sleep on it and work at it again (today)."

Artest, reached late Tuesday at his home in Indianapolis, said he is open to all possibilities.
"Whatever my agent tells me to do, that's what I'll do," he said. "I'm going to do whatever the rules say."

Stevens was unavailable for comment Tuesday evening.

Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh declined to speak with reporters Tuesday beyond a statement released by the team.

"As I have said before, until there is a deal completed, we do not have a deal," Walsh said in the statement.

Artest dismissed an ESPN report that he was to meet with Walsh this morning.

"Nobody has told me about that," he said.

Artest also denied an ESPN report he has bought a home in Los Angeles, although he said he has rented an apartment short term.

He added that he has not given thought recently to where he would like to play.

"Right now I'm a Pacer," he said. "I've only been watching the Pacers and Kobe Bryant."

Should the deal fall through, the Pacers will move to one of their other options. Team president Larry Bird said Monday the team is considering offers from "five, maybe six" teams.

The Kings, meanwhile, find themselves in an awkward position with Stojakovic, a popular player who has appeared in more games for the franchise than anyone since it moved to Sacramento.

David Bauman, Stojakovic's agent, told Bloomberg the Kings told him Stojakovic had been traded. Stojakovic initially was told to fly home rather than play Tuesday at Philadelphia. Later he was instructed to stay at the hotel and accompany the team to New York for its game tonight.

"It's unbelievable," Bauman said.

Stojakovic told ESPN.com, "The way I was treated today, I was disappointed. I feel kind of disrespected with the way I found out. Thank God they have TVs here. I understand being traded, but this situation is weird. I had already planned my flight back to Sacramento, and now everything is reversed.

"I guess this is just a business, but the way I was told and the way I found out, I feel I deserved better from (Kings owners Joe and Gavin Maloof). Anybody can get traded in the NBA, but the way I found out, it was disrespectful. I deserve better after 71/2 years."

Stojakovic can opt out of his contract after this season. It expires after next season.

Joe Maloof revealed his interest in Artest earlier Tuesday in an interview televised by ESPN. While not confirming the trade, he spoke of Artest as if it had been completed.

"Whatever the negatives were, we're going to set them behind us," Maloof said.

Maloof praised Artest, who played in the 2004 NBA All-Star Game and was voted Defensive Player of the Year that season.

"I think he's a terrific player, one of the top players in the NBA," Maloof said. "He's very passionate about the way he plays. He's tough-minded. He's strong. He defends people. He's a wonderful athlete. He's a great player."

[kg_veteran]

After Artest's antics yesterday, I recant my position in my post above. I wouldn't trade Rawle Marshall for that nutjob Artest.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

After Artest's antics yesterday, I recant my position in my post above. I wouldn't trade Rawle Marshall for that nutjob Artest.

I'd still do Stack and Benga for Artest.

[Five-ofan]

I wouldnt take him if he was free. He screws up a team and as will soon be shown once TO leaves Philly, once a locker room is changed in that manner, it cant go back. Its like pandora's box. You are intrigued by the possibilities of getting him just like you are by the possibilities of what might be in the box but once you get him/open the box all you get is trouble.