Cowboys Vs Steelers

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
I've been listening to this QB talk like everyone else in Dallas all Summer. Frankly, I'm sick of it. The biggest problem is that everyone comes into the convesation with a bias. After reading this thread, those with Hutch biases are making all kinds of excuses for him, the biggest one being that both QB's suck. As an unbias uncaring observer, I have to say that is a serious case of sour grapes. I usually listen to everything DrBio says about the Mavs and would never even dare to disagree with him, but in this case, I have to say - you sound like a little baby throughout this thread.

The bottom line is after this game, the Cowboys have found thier starter. Any unbiased observer that doesn't care who is the QB as long as Dallas starts competing in some games this year and maybe winning a few, can easily see that QCard is way ahead of Hutch at this point. Please spare me your argumentative, biased replies full of spin control.

I feel the same way. Bio the Mavs fan is a completely different person than Bio the Cowboys fan. I have never recieved a insult from this guy until discussion came about the Cowboys. I was actually suprised.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
I've been listening to this QB talk like everyone else in Dallas all Summer. Frankly, I'm sick of it. The biggest problem is that everyone comes into the convesation with a bias. After reading this thread, those with Hutch biases are making all kinds of excuses for him, the biggest one being that both QB's suck. As an unbias uncaring observer, I have to say that is a serious case of sour grapes. I usually listen to everything DrBio says about the Mavs and would never even dare to disagree with him, but in this case, I have to say - you sound like a little baby throughout this thread.

The bottom line is after this game, the Cowboys have found thier starter. Any unbiased observer that doesn't care who is the QB as long as Dallas starts competing in some games this year and maybe winning a few, can easily see that QCard is way ahead of Hutch at this point. Please spare me your argumentative, biased replies full of spin control.

LOTR- if you will look up in the thread you will see where I said Qspare would be the starter. However, for months I and others have been saying that both QB's suck. Your end post clearly shows your own bias. Thanks.

[kg_veteran]

After reading this thread, those with Hutch biases are making all kinds of excuses for him, the biggest one being that both QB's suck.

Do me a favor and call people by name.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

FFM, I'll continue saying it until people catch on. It would be like arguing whether Popeye Jones or Evan Eschmeyer should be the 12th man. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference. If Carter or Hutchinson had a future in this league, then it might be worth debating who should start.

I hear what your saying. It's like debating who is the better football team Dallas or Houston. But I think QC vs. Hutch has alot more to it than those comparions because these are the guys who are going to make or break the Cowboys. These are the guys who puts points on teh board. Popeye and Evan aren't even depended on to play for us. I agree I don't see much of a future for these guys. Atleast as a Cowboy.

[Drbio]

FFM- you get my insults because you cannot piece together rational thought to make clear conclusions. Your boner for Qsucks over-rides your ability to reasonable assessments of Qcrappy. He sucks. He is better than Hutch so far this year. But he sucks nonetheless. Stupid people should not post. I re-issue my challenge to you in the Lounge. You will run from it again I am sure, but that's ok. I wouldn't want to be exposed as a dumbass either.

[QCarFan]

good post lordofthemavs, and kg i think he will be good, because he showed me that he can play this game, despite all the critics putting him down, saying he is bad, want start, etc etc. He hung in there and earned the job, not by default but he earned the job. he outplayed hutch in every way, and he is leading the team. he hasnt looked bad at all this preseason, he has looked pretty damn good. maybe he looked bad last season, but he was in a lose lose situation. he was setup for failure, and he was handcuffed. he wasnt allowed to play his game. one question......has carter looked bad at all this season? nope, he has actually looked pretty good

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Drbio
FFM- you get my insults because you cannot piece together rational though to make clear conclusions. Your boner for Qsucks over-rides your ability to reasonable assessments of Qcrappy. He sucks. He is better than Hutch so far this year. But he sucks nonetheless. Stupid people should not post. I re-issue my challenge to you in the Lounge. You will run from it again I am sure, but that's ok. I wouldn't want to be exposed as a dumbass either.

Ok i'm a idiot. Now what do you do? Where do you go now Bio? Thats your debating. I debate about Hutch and Carter while you debate how smart I am. It doesn't bother me because people are seeing who the idiot is. You're upset over Hutch. Over a 3rd string arena league qb. You can't debate with you because you add insults to your debates. I'm through with this. Insult me in pms but do everyone a favor and stay sports related in the Other Sports Section.

[kg_veteran]

But I think QC vs. Hutch has alot more to it than those comparions because these are the guys who are going to make or break the Cowboys. These are the guys who puts points on teh board.

The assumption here that I disagree with is that either guy could do anything but break the Cowboys. The Cowboys are going to be awful this year, and the quarterback position is going to be one of the big reasons why.

[LordOfTheMavs]

Like I said, I have no bias. I don't care who starts at QB. Black guy, White Guy, Rookie Guy, Whatever. I just kinda want the Cowboys to win the game. Bill put the pressure on the QB's and put them both in tough situations, and Quincy came out of it all with the least damage. I have 18 posts, you have 10000+. I wont pretend to have the debate skills or the time that you have on your hands, but I will say this. QCard looks like he fits the role that Bill said he was looking for better than Chad. Someone to move the offense and make plays that puts points on the board.

You obviously have a HUGE bias for Hutch. Fine. I don't really care. But Quincy will be the starter now. The only debate left is whether it is better for the team to leave Hutch around as the second string QB. Personally, I think it is good for the starter to know that thier is someone breathing down thier neck, and frankly that kind of move seems to fit in with what little I have learned of Bill's coaching philosophy since he has been in Dallas.

DrBio - when I read your insights into the Mavs, I don't get this kind of homerism towards individual player. Your comments seem to be more focused on what is best for the team and I respect that opinion and always read your insight. However, in this thread, I sense some serious junior league posting from you.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Ok i'm a idiot. Now what do you do? Where do you go now Bio? Thats your debating. I debate about Hutch and Carter while you debate how smart I am. It doesn't bother me because people are seeing who the idiot is. You're upset over Hutch. Over a 3rd string arena league qb. You can't debate with you because you add insults to your debates. I'm through with this. Insult me in pms but do everyone a favor and stay sports related in the Other Sports Section.

I will give you the Hutchisuck vs. Qspare point just to get past it. Please quit saying I am upset about it because you are wrong. I am sick of reading your incoherent conclusions based on dumbass mental deficiencies. Since the QB issue is removed, the glaring problem is your inability to make rational conclusions based on facts. That and a clear deficiency in intelligence. I ask you again....will you accept the debate challenge or run again?

[kg_veteran]

kg i think he will be good, because he showed me that he can play this game, despite all the critics putting him down, saying he is bad, want start, etc etc. He hung in there and earned the job, not by default but he earned the job. he outplayed hutch in every way, and he is leading the team. he hasnt looked bad at all this preseason, he has looked pretty damn good. maybe he looked bad last season, but he was in a lose lose situation. he was setup for failure, and he was handcuffed. he wasnt allowed to play his game. one question......has carter looked bad at all this season? nope, he has actually looked pretty good

I think that answers my question. You think he's good because of how he's looked in the preseason and the fact that he's looked better than Hutchinson.

I'll tell you what. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to check back with you in about a month, and we'll see if you still think he's looking good, objectively. I don't think you will.

[QCarFan]

you guys will be pleasently surprised with carter this year, wait and see. he will be do good this season, watch and see.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
Like I said, I have no bias. I don't care who starts at QB. Black guy, White Guy, Rookie Guy, Whatever. I just kinda want the Cowboys to win the game. Bill put the pressure on the QB's and put them both in tough situations, and Quincy came out of it all with the least damage. I have 18 posts, you have 10000+. I wont pretend to have the debate skills or the time that you have on your hands, but I will say this. QCard looks like he fits the role that Bill said he was looking for better than Chad. Someone to move the offense and make plays that puts points on the board.

You obviously have a HUGE bias for Hutch. Fine. I don't really care. But Quincy will be the starter now. The only debate left is whether it is better for the team to leave Hutch around as the second string QB. Personally, I think it is good for the starter to know that thier is someone breathing down thier neck, and frankly that kind of move seems to fit in with what little I have learned of Bill's coaching philosophy since he has been in Dallas.

DrBio - when I read your insights into the Mavs, I don't get this kind of homerism towards individual player. Your comments seem to be more focused on what is best for the team and I respect that opinion and always read your insight. However, in this thread, I sense some serious junior league posting from you.

Again, I have no bias FOR Hutch. I thought at the end of last season and at the beginning of this one that he was better. That he had more potential. I still think he has more potential, but Qtards results have been better thus far. Qspare has beaten him out in my opinion based on his play this preseason so far. That point is over. I cannot make it any more clear. What I have a problem with is someone like FFM who makes dumbass conclusions based on nothing. There is no linear thought. There is no 2+2=4. There is only the raping of partial statements and ignoring of other statements to put out his own agenda. There is no synthesis of rational thought. Only a pro-Qspare agenda. Nothing more. But a whole lot less.

[QCarFan]

thats all i ask for kg, i am not going to sit here and argue over it. check back in a month because carter has already proved some of you all wrong, now he can prove me wrong with his play but i dont think he will. i think he will play good this season. thats all. he can prove one of us wrong, thats for sure

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: QCarFan
you guys will be pleasently surprised with carter this year, wait and see. he will be do good this season, watch and see.

I hope you are right because it looks like we are going to war with him. I just don't have the same expectation for him. He hasn't shown us any reason to think that he can be a decent QB. Only time will tell.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Drbio

Again, I have no bias FOR Hutch. I thought at the end of last season and at the beginning of this one that he was better. That he had more potential. I still think he has more potential, but Qtards results have been better thus far. Qspare has beaten him out in my opinion based on his play this preseason so far. That point is over. I cannot make it any more clear. What I have a problem with is someone like FFM who makes dumbass conclusions based on nothing. There is no linear thought. There is no 2+2=4. There is only the raping of partial statements and ignoring of other statements to put out his own agenda. There is no synthesis of rational thought. Only a pro-Qspare agenda. Nothing more. But a whole lot less.

What do you mean concluions based on nothing? You ignore the facts I show you. Last season Carter was 3-3. Hutch was fucking 2-8. Thats all I have to say. He sucked last season and he sucked this preseason. You have no problem with my conclusions at all. Its all about Carter being the better qb whether you like Hutch or not. Lord sees it. He isn't the only one. Read all of your posts in Quincy Carter related threads. You have a nickname for Carter like QTard but Hutch doesn't have one? Oh but wait according to you Carter has showed alot more than Hutch. Can anyone say hypocrite?

[QCarFan]

this preseason, i think he has showed that he will be just decent, he has showed he will be good imo.

[LordOfTheMavs]

What about the rest of the game. Any discussion on other aspects of the game or players?
I thought our running game looked terrible against their starters, but they are one of the best in the league against the run.
I thought Maddox tore up our secondary and passed at will.
I thought Plaxico Burris was a freakin' stud. Damn that boy good. Damn. (Best player on the field?) He looked like he could do whatever, whenever.
I thought that thier stupid penalties was the diffence in the game. I thought our lack of too many stupid penalties and turnovers was our strength. If anything, I think Parcells can fix those kind of stupid problems and win us a couple of games that we shouldn't have won this year. At least we might look profesional and look like we can at least play with some of the better teams in the league.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
What about the rest of the game. Any discussion on other aspects of the game or players?
I thought our running game looked terrible against their starters, but they are one of the best in the league against the run.
I thought Maddox tore up our secondary and passed at will.
I thought Plaxico Burris was a freakin' stud. Damn that boy good. Damn. (Best player on the field?) He looked like he could do whatever, whenever.
I thought that thier stupid penalties was the diffence in the game. I thought our lack of too many stupid penalties and turnovers was our strength. If anything, I think Parcells can fix those kind of stupid problems and win us a couple of games that we shouldn't have won this year. At least we might look profesional and look like we can at least play with some of the better teams in the league.

I remember Plaxico on a MTV special. He was a rookie trying to make the Steelers. That guy has come along way. I was impressed with the tight ends. I was looking for something in our corners but have yet to see anything. Roy and Woody are having to make up for the corners mistakes a bit to much.

[Drbio]

Read all of your posts in Quincy Carter related threads. You have a nickname for Carter like QTard but Hutch doesn't have one? Oh but wait according to you Carter has showed alot more than Hutch. Can anyone say hypocrite?

Let's take this excerpt from your above post and look at it for a second FFM. I freely stipulate that I have Qtard nicknames. I feel he deserves them and he will continue to get them until I see fit. HOWEVER, you erroneously state that I have no names for Hutchisuck (oops...there's one). This is an example of your unintelligent conclusions based not on facts but on your chubby for Carter. You can't get past the fact that I don't like either guy. BUT, if I rag on Qspare you get pissy. Maybe because his color (as you alluded to in another thread, maybe for other reasons). Whatever teh reason, I don't care. You are still ignorant to make that statement when the threads are chock full of examples. Then, you last ignorant statement. You do everything short of begging me to admit that Qspare is better than Hutch. I gave them through this game to assess their play. Although both suck IMO, Qtard has played better than Hutchisuck (oops another one...don't ignore it ok?). So, calling me a hypocrit for taking time to make a determination on who I think is deserving of a start, and finally agreeing with you to an extent on Qcrappy is pretty ignorant.

Just two more examples....

[LordOfTheMavs]

Bio - I came into the discussion late and read through the first five pages to find out that this was a war between two biased parties. No real discussion. No back and forth points and conclusions. Just chest thumping and stuff. I usually find higher quality posts on this sight. Never really seen some of the good flame wars, but this looks like one. I don't mean to get in the middle and interupt ya'lls fun, but my wife has gone to bed and I have nothing better to do.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
What about the rest of the game. Any discussion on other aspects of the game or players?
I thought our running game looked terrible against their starters, but they are one of the best in the league against the run.
Pitt has a nasty front line. But, we couldn't run at all. You would think we could bust off one decent run right?
I thought Maddox tore up our secondary and passed at will.
I think Maddox is underated. He could be one of the prototypical late bloomers.
I thought Plaxico Burris was a freakin' stud. Damn that boy good. Damn. (Best player on the field?) He looked like he could do whatever, whenever.
Burress has a bright future in this league and should be a contributing member of arguably the best receiving corp in the NFL.
I thought that thier stupid penalties was the diffence in the game. I thought our lack of too many stupid penalties and turnovers was our strength. If anything, I think Parcells can fix those kind of stupid problems and win us a couple of games that we shouldn't have won this year. At least we might look profesional and look like we can at least play with some of the better teams in the league.

Bill Parcells coached teams usually aren't the kind that make stupid plays consistently. I think we can expect to improve each week or guys that can't won't be around for long.

[LordOfTheMavs]

Filthy - I can't imagine Plaxico having to fight his way into the league. His frame and atheletic abilities look awesome. Anyone know when he was drafted? I knew he was a really good reciever, but he made our secondary look like a bunch of high school kids, bumping into each other and trying to stay up with him.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
Bio - I came into the discussion late and read through the first five pages to find out that this was a war between two biased parties. No real discussion. No back and forth points and conclusions. Just chest thumping and stuff. I usually find higher quality posts on this sight. Never really seen some of the good flame wars, but this looks like one. I don't mean to get in the middle and interupt ya'lls fun, but my wife has gone to bed and I have nothing better to do.

LOTM- no problem. I can take it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
Filthy - I can't imagine Plaxico having to fight his way into the league. His frame and atheletic abilities look awesome. Anyone know when he was drafted? I knew he was a really good reciever, but he made our secondary look like a bunch of high school kids, bumping into each other and trying to stay up with him.

Not that I think Plax could hold his jockstrap, but some of those bump moves he made tonight reminded me of Terrell Owens.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Drbio

Let's take this excerpt from your above post and look at it for a second FFM. I freely stipulate that I have Qtard nicknames. I feel he deserves them and he will continue to get them until I see fit. HOWEVER, you erroneously state that I have no names for Hutchisuck (oops...there's one). This is an example of your unintelligent conclusions based not on facts but on your chubby for Carter. You can't get past the fact that I don't like either guy. BUT, if I rag on Qspare you get pissy. Maybe because his color (as you alluded to in another thread, maybe for other reasons). Whatever teh reason, I don't care. You are still ignorant to make that statement when the threads are chock full of examples. Then, you last ignorant statement. You do everything short of begging me to admit that Qspare is better than Hutch. I gave them through this game to assess their play. Although both suck IMO, Qtard has played better than Hutchisuck (oops another one...don't ignore it ok?). So, calling me a hypocrit for taking time to make a determination on who I think is deserving of a start, and finally agreeing with you to an extent on Qcrappy is pretty ignorant.

Just two more examples....

He brings race back into the argument. And i'm ignorant.

[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
Filthy - I can't imagine Plaxico having to fight his way into the league. His frame and atheletic abilities look awesome. Anyone know when he was drafted? I knew he was a really good reciever, but he made our secondary look like a bunch of high school kids, bumping into each other and trying to stay up with him.

No I don't think he was trying to make the team he was just having a hard time trying to learn the NFL. It was following his life and everything. I assumed the guy was a future bench warmer so I didn't really pay any attention to it. Boy was I wrong.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

He brings race back into the argument. And i'm ignorant.

[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

Only using your words. Not mine. And yes, you are ignorant. Thanks for clearing that up and for ignoring the issue of the post.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: LordOfTheMavs
Bio - I came into the discussion late and read through the first five pages to find out that this was a war between two biased parties. No real discussion. No back and forth points and conclusions. Just chest thumping and stuff. I usually find higher quality posts on this sight. Never really seen some of the good flame wars, but this looks like one. I don't mean to get in the middle and interupt ya'lls fun, but my wife has gone to bed and I have nothing better to do.

There is nothing fun about getting bashed for liking a guy over another guy lol.

[LordOfTheMavs]

I was a little dissapointed this game as compared to last with punt returns. I love watching Woody return punts. I hope the coaches can find a place for him on this team, because everytime he touches the ball I am amazed. Last week Zaraway(sp?) looked awesome as well. But alas, no good return situations this week. Pitts punt coverage was great.

[QCarFan]

Plax will be a damn good player, and I dont think its far fetched that he will be as good as TO soon.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: QCarFan
Plax will be a damn good player, and I dont think its far fetched that he will be as good as TO soon.

hhhmmmm....maybe in a year or two? He is having a nice start, but it's tough to annoint him as a potential Owens just yet.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Drbio

Only using your words. Not mine. And yes, you are ignorant. Thanks for clearing that up.

I did not bring race into this thread. You did. If you were ofended by it you wouldn't have brought it up in this thread. Your just trying to stir up nonsense thats all. Campbell and Whitten are white. I like them over Tony Mcgee. Uh oh. Because Quincy happens to be black i'm ignorant because I like him over Hutch. If Hutch was black he would still be a horrible qb. Thats like me saying you dislike Carter because he is black. I could sit here and post all of tthe 25+ nicknames you gave Quincy and the 5 or 6 you made of Hutch and call you a racist. I wouldn't do that because its ignorant. I know no one on this site is racist. I know no one on this site favors a player because he is a certain color. Its 2003 for goodness sake.

[QCarFan]

Thats what I meant drbio, and a year or two. I dont think its far fetched at all, I think he could definitely be as good as TO in a year or two. Having another WR like Ward on the other side helps him in so many ways.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

I did not bring race into this thread. You did. If you were ofended by it you wouldn't have brought it up in this thread. Your just trying to stir up nonsense thats all. Campbell and Whitten are white. I like them over Tony Mcgee. Uh oh. Because Quincy happens to be black i'm ignorant because I like him over Hutch. If Hutch was black he would still be a horrible qb. Thats like me saying you dislike Carter because he is black. I could sit here and post all of tthe 25+ nicknames you gave Quincy and the 5 or 6 you made of Hutch and call you a racist. I wouldn't do that because its ignorant. I know no one on this site is racist. I know no one on this site favors a player because he is a certain color. Its 2003 for goodness sake.

I guess you failed to once again read the ENTIRE post. Please re-read the EXACT words here ...."Maybe because his color (as you alluded to in another thread, maybe for other reasons)." As I clearly stated, you brought it up in another thread. I am only trying to make sense of your inate inability to make rational points. I can only assume that you are blinded by something, otherwise I have to accept you as only stupid. I've seen some of your other posts, and I don't think you are 100% stupid, so it leads me back to the things you have posted in our other conversations. That was one part of it and you broached the topic in that other thread. Now the rest of your response above was purely ignorant. Do not try to put words into my mouth like your pathetic attempt when you stated, "Because Quincy happens to be black i'm ignorant because I like him over Hutch." When you make statements such as this, you attempt to make it appear that I said this when clearly I did not. Another example of your scatterf*ck posting style. How about this? Read a book. Learn some facts about anything. Please...do something to gain some knowledge. You have not shown a grasp of a single topic to date.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: QCarFan
Thats what I meant drbio, and a year or two. I dont think its far fetched at all, I think he could definitely be as good as TO in a year or two. Having another WR like Ward on the other side helps him in so many ways.

I agree. Ward will complement him greatly this season. Watch for a break out.

[LordOfTheMavs]

Stats for Burress 6-5 226lbs
2000 PIT 12 9 22 273 12.4 39 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 1 1
2001 PIT 16 16 66 1008 15.3 43 6 0 0 0.0 0 0 1 0
2002 PIT 16 15 78 1325 17.0 62 7 0 0 0.0 0 0 2 1

Stats for Owens 6-3 226lbs
996 SF 16 10 35 520 14.9 46 4 0 0 0.0 0 0 1 1
1997 SF 16 15 60 936 15.6 56 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 1 0
1998 SF 16 8 67 1097 16.4 79 14 4 53 13.3 21 1 1 1
1999 SF 14 14 60 754 12.6 36 4 0 0 0.0 0 0 1 1
2000 SF 14 13 97 1451 15.0 69 13 3 11 3.7 5 0 3 2
2001 SF 16 16 93 1412 15.2 60 16 4 21 5.3 12 0 0 0
2002 SF 14 14 100 1300 13.0 76 13 7 79 11.3 38 1 0 0

Yards are about the same at 1300, but Owens had 13 touchdowns compared to Burress's 7.
Burress had 78 catches compared to Owens 100. Burress had 17 yds/catch compared to Owens 13 yds/catch.

Burress's third year compared to Owens third year is about the same, with Owens haveing 14tds. So looks like Owens big play ability to score TD's is what is seperating them right now.

Intresting to note that they weigh the same, but Burress is two inches taller.

[Drbio]

So you agree that his play tonight was comparable to Owens? I really thought that he played the bump and catch part just like Owens.


Thanks for the stats. That was interesting.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Drbio

I guess you failed to once again read the ENTIRE post. Please re-read the EXACT words here ...."Maybe because his color (as you alluded to in another thread, maybe for other reasons)." As I clearly stated, you brought it up in another thread. I am only trying to make sense of your inate inability to make rational points. I can only assume that you are blinded by something, otherwise I have to accept you as only stupid. I've seen some of your other posts, and I don't think you are 100% stupid, so it leads me back to the things you have posted in our other conversations. That was one part of it and you broached the topic in that other thread. Now the rest of your response above was purely ignorant. Do not try to put words into my mouth like your pathetic attempt when you stated, "Because Quincy happens to be black i'm ignorant because I like him over Hutch." When you make statements such as this, you attempt to make it appear that I said this when clearly I did not. Another example of your scatterf*ck posting style. How about this? Read a book. Learn some facts about anything. Please...do something to gain some knowledge. You have not shown a grasp of a single topic to date.

You're wasting bandwith.

[Drbio]

*yawn*

You continue to ignore the issue. How about the debate FFM or is Mary had a little lamb too intellectual?