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Old 02-07-2010, 10:21 AM   #201
tcat075
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For the record I don't want AI here, at least as a first option. I'd rather have Kevin Martin. Screw his poor defense, 3/5 of our starters are defensive starters anyway and don't really have offense. AI is a solid player, but I don't think he's consistent enough scorer to be that #2 scorer we've been wanting. Puts up a lot of 3's, only shoots around 30%, and only shoots around 42% on FG's. Don't get me wrong, I love his defense and rebounding, but we're looking for another scorer...we don't need this.

As I was saying about Martin, he provides that 20 PPG that we want (still averaging that this year despite it being a "down year") and his defense can be covered up by starting Marion, by starting Dampier, and by starting Kidd. And vice versa, it helps cover up those threes offensive woes.
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:45 PM   #202
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I see your point but, I actually think that Butler is the best option available because he gives you a good balance between offense and defense. At this point I would take any one of the three.
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Old 02-07-2010, 01:06 PM   #203
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for the record i dont think lebron is coming to dallas. its just a thought, i would assume will look into it as any other owner of a playoff team would.
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Old 02-07-2010, 01:11 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by tcat075 View Post
For the record I don't want AI here, at least as a first option. I'd rather have Kevin Martin. Screw his poor defense, 3/5 of our starters are defensive starters anyway and don't really have offense. AI is a solid player, but I don't think he's consistent enough scorer to be that #2 scorer we've been wanting. Puts up a lot of 3's, only shoots around 30%, and only shoots around 42% on FG's. Don't get me wrong, I love his defense and rebounding, but we're looking for another scorer...we don't need this.

As I was saying about Martin, he provides that 20 PPG that we want (still averaging that this year despite it being a "down year") and his defense can be covered up by starting Marion, by starting Dampier, and by starting Kidd. And vice versa, it helps cover up those threes offensive woes.
Our problem in recent weeks hasn't been the offensive end (when was the last time we didn't score 100+ points?). Instead, we played horrible defense and allowed pretty much every team to shoot 49% and better. In the end, even a pure scorer like Martin couldn't make up for that, not to mention that it would probably lead to our defense being even worse. Whether we have three defensive starters in our starting lineup or not doesn't really matter when our opponents shoot 50% from the floor. Perhaps, these supposed defensive starters aren't all that good on defense, at least not consistently.

Therefore, I'd be a lot happier to get a player like Iguodala who can give you both, offense as well as defense. While we need an offensive upgrade, that upgrade may not have to be our second-best scorer every single night. We still have JET who can fill that role occasionally. If Iggy and JET were able to consistently give us a 2nd and 3rd scoring option, regardless of who plays which role on any given night, we might be fine.

One more thing to consider is that Martin has been injury-prone for years now, and we're not talking about 5 or 6 games over the course of a season. In the last three seasons, including this one, he always missed 20+ games. He's never had to play a full season with an extensive playoff run. How would his body react to that kind of physical pressure? Iggy's durability vs. Martin's fragility should be a major factor and I'm glad that even Dirk pointed it out just the other day.

Last edited by dalger; 02-07-2010 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:29 PM   #205
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Our problem in recent weeks hasn't been the offensive end (when was the last time we didn't score 100+ points?). Instead, we played horrible defense and allowed pretty much every team to shoot 49% and better. In the end, even a pure scorer like Martin couldn't make up for that, not to mention that it would probably lead to our defense being even worse. Whether we have three defensive starters in our starting lineup or not doesn't really matter when our opponents shoot 50% from the floor. Perhaps, these supposed defensive starters aren't all that good on defense, at least not consistently.

Therefore, I'd be a lot happier to get a player like Iguodala who can give you both, offense as well as defense. While we need an offensive upgrade, that upgrade may not have to be our second-best scorer every single night. We still have JET who can fill that role occasionally. If Iggy and JET were able to consistently give us a 2nd and 3rd scoring option, regardless of who plays which role on any given night, we might be fine.

One more thing to consider is that Martin has been injury-prone for years now, and we're not talking about 5 or 6 games over the course of a season. In the last three seasons, including this one, he always missed 20+ games. He's never had to play a full season with an extensive playoff run. How would his body react to that kind of physical pressure? Iggy's durability vs. Martin's fragility should be a major factor and I'm glad that even Dirk pointed it out just the other day.
Let me preface this by saying I agree with your view on Iggy, I think he would vastly improve his offense playing alongside Kidd, Dirk, Jet, and even Marion. He really doesn't have a lot to work with in Philly and here in Dallas he would get easier looks, and wouldn't have to be relied upon NEARLY as heavily. In addition, he does bring a great defensive presence and provides that slashing/finishing that we so desperately need. Add that to his passing ability and his durability and he would vastly improve this team.

However, I'm not of the same opinion as you in that the Mavs recent defensive atrocities are going to become the norm. Think of this, the Mavs have been starting Jet at the 2, historically one of the Mavs absolute worst defenders. As long as Jet is starting at the 2, the Mavs will continue to be an extremely poor defensive team. This is why I, despite his struggles all year, am still in favor of starting Howard, at least until he is traded. But I believe if we have Butler/Iggy/Martin starting at the 2 we will become a vastly improved defensive team regardless of which one we get. Obviously Iggy is the best, Butler next, and Martin last. But even with Martin we are a better, and definitely longer team than we are with Jet, or heaven forbid, JJ. I'm not worried about the defensive end as long as we have someone other than QRoss, JJ, or Jet starting the 2.

On the topic of Martin, you make valid points referring to his durability and defense. And if he can't find away to stay healthy for long periods of time he will be virtually worthless. However, if i'm not mistaken, Martin's injury this year was due to a wrist injury, not any of the injuries that have plagued his career to this point. So if his wrist is now healthy, and he hasn't had injuries to the areas that have been injury prone during his career then I say his upside is worth the risk. Because although Iggy is definitely a good scorer, I don't know if he is a good enough shooter to be our ideal #2 option. This is why I'm willing to brave the risks of taking on Martin. He's long, very athletic, gets to the free throw line just as well as anyone, and has a very polished all around game. Add that to the fact that he is 6ft 7 and i'm constantly drooling over the thought of him healthy for extended time on the floor with Kidd/Dirk/Marion/and Jet at times. I think that we would improve defensively, regardless of how much worse of a defender Martin is than Iggy. Martin is still far superior, and FAR taller and longer than Jet and JJ, obviously. This in itself, and his rebounding and leaping ability makes us a better rebounding team. Also, I think under Carlisle, Martin has the capabilities and tools to be a great defender, he just needs the instruction and motivation, which playing on a contender and having Carlisle as a coach will do.

Give me Kmart please. But if its not possible i would be ecstatic to have Iggy here as well.
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:32 PM   #206
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^He summed up my view pretty well. Martin has some risks, but I really don't love Iggy's offensive game at all. And yes, he'd get some better looks playing with Kidd, but he has some decent scoring options around him at Philly. I don't know...

It just seems like to me that we have defensive minded players, but not enough offensive minded players. Maybe the reason we aren't playing good defense recently is because we have to be playing our scorers at all times, rather than our defenders. Martin could help with that some...instead of having Dirk and two decent scorers and two "defensive players", you could have Dirk and KMart and then Damp/Marion/Kidd or some variation of that.

And with saying that, it becomes sadly obvious, again, that we have no two way players. That's why Butler and Iggy are appealing...finally two way players! However, I'm still doubting Iggy's offensive skills (specifically his 30% shooting on threes while shooting 4 a game, further weakening a weakness in 3pt shooting) and whether Butler is available. KMart, though, provides a scoring punch, provides a weak side shooter, and I really think he can alleviate just enough of that pressure and not only score, but allow JET to get better looks, and Roddy, and on down the scoring line.
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:13 PM   #207
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^He summed up my view pretty well. Martin has some risks, but I really don't love Iggy's offensive game at all. And yes, he'd get some better looks playing with Kidd, but he has some decent scoring options around him at Philly. I don't know...

It just seems like to me that we have defensive minded players, but not enough offensive minded players. Maybe the reason we aren't playing good defense recently is because we have to be playing our scorers at all times, rather than our defenders. Martin could help with that some...instead of having Dirk and two decent scorers and two "defensive players", you could have Dirk and KMart and then Damp/Marion/Kidd or some variation of that.

And with saying that, it becomes sadly obvious, again, that we have no two way players. That's why Butler and Iggy are appealing...finally two way players! However, I'm still doubting Iggy's offensive skills (specifically his 30% shooting on threes while shooting 4 a game, further weakening a weakness in 3pt shooting) and whether Butler is available. KMart, though, provides a scoring punch, provides a weak side shooter, and I really think he can alleviate just enough of that pressure and not only score, but allow JET to get better looks, and Roddy, and on down the scoring line.
I've actually been on these boards, just observing and reading for about 2 years now, i just finally created this account in December, I just find some of the posts so idiotic that its not really worth responding to...but I've actually found that on this topic, we are pretty much in agreement.

However, as far as Iggy goes, I'm willing to be that his 3pt% will go up fairly significantly and this is why. Iggy has to do most of his shot creating, and that includes 3 point shots. From the games I've seen him play, at least half, if not more of his 3 pointers are pull up 3 pointers, not 3's caught in rhythm with your feet set and square. In Dallas, he could get that, and I think his percentage will go up around 5-6% possibly. Its the same with his FG%, if he gets easier shots (which he will with Dirk, Jet, and Kidd to alleviate the pressure) then his percentage will go up, its logic. He's got good form. It could use some tweaking but I see no reason why he can't vastly improve his shooting percentage.

To be honest, I think that both Martin and Iggy would prolly average within 2-3 points of each other if they played here but heres the difference. On nights when Dirk is off or can't shoulder the load, Martin is capable, easily of going off for 30-40 on any given night. I don't think Iggy is capable of that. Ellis is like Martin, only better. I put Butler sort of in the Iggy category, but not as good. I would much rather have Iggy than Butler any day of the week. But as far as average production goes, I would expect Martin or Iggy to average 18-20 a game, or thereabouts.

Difference is, Martin is a gifted, talented, true scorer. Iggy, on the other hand, is pure physical athleticism mixed with a good amount of talent and skill. I'll take the pure scorer for this team right now.
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