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Old 11-09-2004, 11:14 PM   #1
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Default D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

The shots weren't falling - that happens. But last year the Mavs would have been blown out by 30 points in this same situation. But our defense was the reason the Mavs were able to stay in the game and had a legitimate chance to win the game. If we had gotten hot for just a couple of minutes late in the game then we would have won.

I don't like losing but I like what I saw tonight.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:19 PM   #2
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: Max Power
The shots weren't falling - that happens. But last year the Mavs would have been blown out by 30 points in this same situation. But our defense was the reason the Mavs were able to stay in the game and had a legitimate chance to win the game. If we had gotten hot for just a couple of minutes late in the game then we would have won.

I don't like losing but I like what I saw tonight.
Max,

You summed up my feelings and thougts. Actually I said this in another thread but I will say it again: I am not worried even if mavs lose 5 in a row the next few games.



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Old 11-09-2004, 11:23 PM   #3
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

I think many of us agree. The defense looks pretty good. On offense though, I could not believe that we missed so many easy shots over the last two games.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:30 PM   #4
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: Drbio
I think many of us agree. The defense looks pretty good. On offense though, I could not believe that we missed so many easy shots over the last two games.
I thought you were going to say "over the last two seasons" and it would have been true.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:32 PM   #5
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

What's this about defense? Tonight we were horrible defensively. Orlando just sucked. Let's not introduce it after the fact.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:37 PM   #6
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
What's this about defense? Tonight we were horrible defensively. Orlando just sucked.
We aren't a good defensive team and we won't ever be a good defensive team.

However the defense DID play well enough to keep us in this game. Last year we would not have had a chance - it would have been a blowout.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:42 PM   #7
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

did you watch the game? We might have been better this year so far, but this most recent game was at least as bad as any game last year. We can't pat ourself on the back for the last game.
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:51 PM   #8
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

I don't want to side any which way, but I must admit, there were a WHOLE LOT of layups tonight and they weren't from the good guys...
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:52 PM   #9
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
did you watch the game?
Yes I did - thank you VERY much for asking.

Quote:
We might have been better this year so far, but this most recent game was at least as bad as any game last year. We can't pat ourself on the back for the last game.
Did you watch the games last year? What happened when we shot this poorly? WE WERE BLOWN OUT! The defense kept us in tonights game. In no way did I say the defense was good, I merely said the defense kept us in the game. Why would you disagree? Did you watch the game?
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Old 11-09-2004, 11:54 PM   #10
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

I agree that we were bad last year, but you obviously fast-forwarded through most of the game if you saw us playing defense that could even be classified as competent. If we played pathetic defense, I dont see how you could say that it was better than last year or that it kept us in the game. Come on.

And I watched the whole game and I have it on TiVo if there are any particular plays that you think were significantly better than our average game last year.
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Old 11-10-2004, 12:00 AM   #11
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

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Old 11-10-2004, 12:02 AM   #12
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
I agree that we were bad last year, bu you obviously fast-forwarded through most of the game if you saw us playing defense that could even be classified as competent.
I watched the game. I didn't fast forward anything or miss anything. Maybe I don't have YOUR basketball IQ [img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img] but I saw a team whose defense kept them in the game. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't perfect, but it was effective (they DID only shoot 41% against us). Perhaps you might see the glass as half empty but I see it as half full.
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Old 11-10-2004, 12:17 AM   #13
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

question my intelligence or not, the defense we played was poor. Letting a struggling team score 41.7% (which would accurately be rounded to 42 and not 41%) is not good defense.

I saw Orlando take many open threes which they luckily missed
I saw our guys not getting back in transition which allowed for many dunks and layups
I saw guys failing to put out the effort in half-court defense.

I can go play by play if you really want to keep up with your ridiculous proposition that our defense kept us in the game. That's what I saw and that's what the Mavericks players and staff have echoed.
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Old 11-10-2004, 12:45 AM   #14
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
question my intelligence or not the defense we played was poor. Letting a struggling team score 41.7% (which would accurately be rounded to 42 and not 41%) is not good defense.
That "struggling" team is 3-1. That "struggling" team is averaging over 94 ppg (which would have been top 10 in the NBA last year).

Quote:
I saw Orlando take many open threes which they luckily missed
I saw our guys not getting back in transition which allowed for many dunks and layups
I saw guys failing to put out the effort in half-court defense.
I saw guys gutting it out on defense despite being exhausted. I saw a comeback in the 3rd that was fueled by stops. There were breakdowns but they tried. Defense is largely effort and I saw effort on most possessions (except for the 2nd quarter).

Quote:
I can go play by play if you really want to keep up with your ridiculous proposition that our defense kept us in the game. That's what I saw and that's what the Mavericks players and staff have echoed.
Go play by play. What is that going to prove? "x" player made/missed "x" shot is all it is going to show. It isn't going to show if a defender had a hand in the face or if the shot was uncontested.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:13 AM   #15
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Erica, if our defense didn't keep up in the game, what did? Our Offense???
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:16 AM   #16
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: Nash13
Erica, if our defense didn't keep up in the game, what did? Our Offense???
Umm, I specifically said it Nash. If you want to jump into an argument, bring something to it and read the background first.

Orlando missed open shots. Garrity missed all three of his open three-pointers. Most teams will punish us for our poor defensive showing. We honestly got lucky. Attributing the fact that we didnt lose by 25 to our lack-luster defense is absolutely ridiculous.

We are in general an improved defensive team but our defense was very poor tonight. You cannot give our guys credit for stopping Orlando when they got that many uncontested shots.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:17 AM   #17
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Quote:
Originally posted by: Nash13
Erica, if our defense didn't keep up in the game, what did? Our Offense???
Umm, I specifically said it Nash. If you want to jump into an argument, bring something to it and read the background first.
You keep editing your posts so often it is tough to keep up with what you are saying.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:22 AM   #18
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
You keep editing your posts so often it is tough to keep up with what you are saying.
If that is your best argument, and you honestly think that actually watching the game tape doesnt matter, then there is nothing else I can say, Max.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:30 AM   #19
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Quote:
You keep editing your posts so often it is tough to keep up with what you are saying.
If that is your best argument, and you honestly think that actually watching the game tape doesnt matter, then there is nothing else I can say, Max.
It >IS< hard to get a handle on your opinion when you change it. It isn't my best argument, it is merely an observation. You >HAVE< edited many of your posts in this thread so your original opinion is lost to the wind. Who knows if your current opinion will be the one that hangs around until tomorrow.

And why would I care if you watch the game tape? You will see what you want to see. Others of us have seen something else. Eh, that's life.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:34 AM   #20
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
:Max Power
We aren't a good defensive team and we won't ever be a good defensive team.
this year's team will be and thus far has been a good defensive team. Holding opponents to under 42% is good D. Now if you mean they will not have one of the five lowest points allowed stats I will certainly agree...

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Old 11-10-2004, 01:35 AM   #21
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Max, you are either a liar or dilusional if you think that my edits have been changes of opinion. I have only added clarification and additional arguments to posts.

Quote:
Who knows if your current opinion will be the one that hangs around until tomorrow.
Well there is a watermark placed by the website itself that tells you exactly when the posts has been edited, so I'd say that everyone save you would be able to tell tomorrow if I had edited after I went to bed tonight.

Quote:
And why would I care if you watch the game tape? You will see what you want to see. Others of us have seen something else. Eh, that's life.
If the argument is that the majority rules, then the jury is out. If the argument is that its just a matter of interpretation, then I'll give you that on the contested shots, but not on the many open shots that Orlando got. That is not a matter of interpretation. Period.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:48 AM   #22
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Orlando missed open shots. Garrity missed all three of his open three-pointers. Most teams will punish us for our poor defensive showing. We honestly got lucky. Attributing the fact that we didnt lose by 25 to our lack-luster defense is absolutely ridiculous.
First of all, Garrity didn't play much if at all in the second half when we were still in the game, as opposed when he got minutes and we were already down by a lot. Also, the Mavs had a wide open shot or two themselves. Just because you're open isn't an automatic point.

Quote:
We are in general an improved defensive team but our defense was very poor tonight. You cannot give our guys credit for stopping Orlando when they got that many uncontested shots.
How can you say that when we held them to 94pts, which is around our normal average, and under 42%, which is right around our average. The fact is our own poor shooting and inability to move the ball lost us the game.

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Old 11-10-2004, 01:51 AM   #23
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

I'm not arguing that we are a poor defensive team, or that poor defense lost us the game. In fact I'm arguing that our poor defense should have made for a blowout game and that we got lucky. I agree that we were fatigued tonight. I agree that we executed poorly on both sides of the ball and that if we had made our open shots the game would have been a lot closer and the outcome could have been different.
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Old 11-10-2004, 01:58 AM   #24
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
I'm not arguing that we are a poor defensive team, or that poor defense lost us the game. In fact I'm arguing that our poor defense should have made for a blowout game and that we got lucky.
You just contradicted yourself. In your first sentence, you say our defense didn't lose the game, but in your second sentence, you said it did.


Quote:
I agree that we executed poorly on both sides of the ball and that if we had made our open shots the game would have been a lot closer and the outcome could have been different.
So you agree with me?
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:04 AM   #25
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
You just contradicted yourself. In your first sentence, you say our defense didn't lose the game, but in your second sentence, you said it did.
not if you actually gave something I wrote some thought. I said that poor execution lost the game and poor defense should have made it a blowout. But we got lucky and it didnt.

Quote:
So you agree with me?
since it isnt important to my argument and since I've said it in other threads already, yes. I agree with you that shooting and execution lost the game for us. That wasnt really the argument on the table, so yeah. That's right. I'm only arguing with Max's baseless idea that our sharp defense kept us in contention for the win.
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:27 AM   #26
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

The Mavericks defense has seemed to have improved from last season due to the fact that in the five games we have played, no opposing team has scored over 100 ppg or shot for better than 42% HOWEVER when looking at what the teams we have played have accomplished thus far in the season it can be concluded that the Mavericks haven't necessarily made a statement by holding any team significantly below their average ppg or shooting percentage

For example:
Orlando: 40.6% 94.3 ppg ...shot 41.7% against us while scoring 94 points
Sacramento: 39.7% 94.7ppg ... shot 41% against us while scoring 91 points
Memphis: 38.4% 86.7ppg .... shot 37.6% against us while scoring 88 points
Goldenstate: 37.2% 84.8ppg ....shot 38.3% against us while scoring 98 points

As you can see all teams are averaging less than 42% on shooting and under 100ppg.

So when will we see how our "new" defense holds up against a team with a respectful shooting percentage and ppg average?

My answer would be to advise you to tune into TNT on Thursday at 7:00 p.m. when we face the Miami Heat who are currently averaging 103.3 ppg and shooting a solid 51%

To hold the Heat under 100 points and under 42% on field goals would be quite an accomplishment.

Are we up to the challenge?
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:33 AM   #27
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

great post, enstien, we will have to wait and see.

though I'd bet if you wanted to look up last year's stats, the 03-04 Mavs's opponents scored and shot above their averages when palying the Mavs.
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Old 11-10-2004, 08:48 AM   #28
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Max, you are either a liar or dilusional
Aren't you the pissy missy. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Quote:
Well there is a watermark placed by the website itself that tells you exactly when the posts has been edited, so I'd say that everyone save you would be able to tell tomorrow if I had edited after I went to bed tonight.
Well DUH! I have been on this site a little longer than you have so I think I know how it works. What's with all the personal insults tonight?

Quote:
If the argument is that the majority rules, then the jury is out. If the argument is that its just a matter of interpretation, then I'll give you that on the contested shots, but not on the many open shots that Orlando got. That is not a matter of interpretation. Period.
Then give us some facts. All you have so far is the fact that YOU have seen the game a different way than I have. Which is fine because different people see the same event in different ways. But all you've done is spray negativity in this thread like a dog marking its territory.
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Old 11-10-2004, 10:51 AM   #29
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

The only time the defense was any good last night was when Bradley anchored the zone, but we've had that option for years now. Anytime you use the zone on Francis you're defense is going to be effective. Otherwise our points got burned last night.
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Old 11-10-2004, 11:34 AM   #30
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
But all you've done is spray negativity in this thread like a dog marking its territory.
I find that a little offensive since you said

"Maybe I don't have YOUR basketball IQ [img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]" as if I dont have the basketball IQ to understand the game I was watching.
"Who knows if your current opinion will be the one that hangs around until tomorrow" as if I was flip-flopping. What a deceptive move! You knew exactly how I was editing my posts. Exactly, and you always had the option to quote. To imply that I was doing anything more than being annoying is beyond any standards of debate.

I can hardly see how I am the real pessimist here. I have only questioned the EFFECTIVENESS of a defense that allowed for many open shots and that the franchise admitted to. You have still failed to address any of those concerns legitimately. You play the "interpretation card", and do so questioning my intelligence on my interpretation, and then when you fail to explain why we allowed for a layup and dunk drill, you move on to the argument that the Mavs tried their hardest.

I agree that they tried hard. I agree that they are generally a better team. I just see nothing in your argument except for stats that seem to point to any understanding of what actually happened in the game. We failed to roll on defense, we failed to get back on defense, we failed to contest shots. Those aren't matters for interpretation, Max. You know better than to say they are. When you get challenged on the exact contents of the game you jump to stats, but ignore what really happened in the game. The fact is that the stats looked good defensively. The Mavs in the game did not.

Many posters have already posted that they noticed the same things. and

Stackhouse, "They got so many easy baskets in transition....I just think that we just needed a little bit more effort."

Daniels, "We just got to get back in transition and take away some of those easy baskets they were getting. We just have to be able to setup our defense. "

Don Nelson, "We had to go to our zone, since we weren't getting much done."

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Old 11-10-2004, 11:47 AM   #31
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: Max Power
Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
What's this about defense? Tonight we were horrible defensively. Orlando just sucked.
We aren't a good defensive team and we won't ever be a good defensive team.

However the defense DID play well enough to keep us in this game. Last year we would not have had a chance - it would have been a blowout.
MP, what prevents us from becoming a good defensive team? What are we missing?

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Old 11-10-2004, 12:34 PM   #32
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

I think Erica just went Socratic on you guys(max, nash). No point arguing against that...
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Old 11-10-2004, 02:10 PM   #33
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

While I truly don't want to become enbroiled in this argument, I will post a quote by Mike Fisher on the Golden State game.

Quote:
Dallas did not make its comeback with offense; after all, the club managed to shoot just 38 percent. No, the Mavs came back because of defense.
This sums up the game with the Magic as well.

Surely something can be made out of the Orlando misses.

But the comeback that fell short was ignited on the defensive end of the floor.

The zone clearly changed the face of the game. And had Dallas not been involved in an OT game on get-away day, one has to wonder if that defeat might have been a victory.

Which is at polar opposition to last year's team and results if in the same situation.

They would have folded tents and the loss would have been huge.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting this is a defensive juggernaut.

But clearly this team plays better defense. It only takes watching the court and seeing teams wear out on the final stanza.

Maybe it's because we have such depth and can keep coming with the pressure in full court.

But last night's lay-up drill by the Magic had more to do with tired legs than it did with poor defense.

*************************

By the way, before the Great Unwashed comments. They did get a center. That should answer your question.
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Old 11-10-2004, 03:34 PM   #34
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Quote:
But all you've done is spray negativity in this thread like a dog marking its territory.
I find that a little offensive since you said

"Maybe I don't have YOUR basketball IQ [img]i/expressions/anim_roller.gif[/img]" as if I dont have the basketball IQ to understand the game I was watching.
"Who knows if your current opinion will be the one that hangs around until tomorrow" as if I was flip-flopping. What a deceptive move! You knew exactly how I was editing my posts. Exactly, and you always had the option to quote. To imply that I was doing anything more than being annoying is beyond any standards of debate.
I found it a little offensive that you asked me in a snippy way if I had watched the game. And after I had posted that I had indeed watched the game then you accused me of "fast forwarding" the game. So you are the one that started with the negativity missy. Excuse me for responding in kind.

And as for the quoting feature - you changed one of your posts WHILE I WAS QUOTING IT. My quote didn't come up right because you had already changed your post. That makes it difficult because you can always say "I didn't say that" because since the original post had been changed then there isn't any record of your actual comments. You CAN change the wording in a quote - it doesn't have to be same as what was originally posted.
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Old 11-10-2004, 03:45 PM   #35
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: chumdawg
MP, what prevents us from becoming a good defensive team? What are we missing?
Well our two best players aren't two way players. That sucks. That means in crunch time, 40% of our defense is suspect because Finley and Dirk aren't going to be riding the bench.

Of course I never had any expectations of our team being a good defensive team since I would call a good defensive team as one that is in the top 10 in blocks, defensive rebounding, and defensive field goal percentage. I'll be happy with average (top 50% in the above categories) because that will give us the ability to make situational stops and to OCCASIONALLY start a comeback using defense.

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Old 11-10-2004, 04:21 PM   #36
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

For what it's worth, I thought it was our defense that gave us a chance to win last night.
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Old 11-10-2004, 04:31 PM   #37
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

The Mavs defense is much improved from last year, but this team is not a great defensive team. They can be a good defensive team (or good enough), and that would be enough to win a title. As long as they can continue to score in the 100's and hold their opponent's FG% below 41%, then they can beat anyteam in the league.

No, I don't think they can ever be a dominant defense (using MP's definition of a good defense), but all they need to be is good enough to win it all (especially with their offensive capability).
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Old 11-10-2004, 04:48 PM   #38
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Ok. Defense is better and i think everyone agrees on that, but these last 2 games the defense has been bad, if we play this defense against a good team (SA, Minn, Utah, suns, etc.) they will kill us. in these 2 last game our defense hasn't been that well, we didn't stop them they failed to make the shots.

If you really think that mavs are in the same level than GS or Orlando then we are in the bottom of the west.

I agree with EL that last night wasn't a good defensive game for the mavs and in the offense was worse.
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Old 11-10-2004, 04:58 PM   #39
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Default RE:D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by: Cybertx
Ok. Defense is better and i think everyone agrees on that, but these last 2 games the defense has been bad, if we play this defense against a good team (SA, Minn, Utah, suns, etc.) they will kill us. in these 2 last game our defense hasn't been that well, we didn't stop them they failed to make the shots.

If you really think that mavs are in the same level than GS or Orlando then we are in the bottom of the west.

I agree with EL that last night wasn't a good defensive game for the mavs and in the offense was worse.
The defense against Golden State started out as bad, but they really shut them down in fhe second half.

The defense against Orlando was average as a whole. To be specific, transition defense was horrible, zone defense was effective for a stretch, but ultimately defense is about energy and hustle, and when tired legs prevailed the defense went south.

This team is far from being where they need to be, but they have already shown that they are capable of being a good defensive team. Unlike in year's passed, where they have to scratch and claw just to be average.
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Old 11-10-2004, 05:07 PM   #40
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Default RE: D-E-F-E-N-S-E!!!

are you serious they didn't shut down them, GS fail to score that's diferent an nothing new GS always suck the second half against any team.
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