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Old 07-27-2002, 10:23 AM   #1
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I was watching the tour de france and Lance destroying it. I also heard the commentators talking about the last stage being easy, the standings being set...

I also heard about folks drinking champagne while doing the last stage.. I'm confused, he's well ahead, but is the last stage an actual race or more of a parade??

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Old 07-27-2002, 10:50 AM   #2
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The time trial is the last stage before the ride into Paris. The time triel is the last chance to make up time. Lance excels there though. The ride into Paris is incredible. It's a flat stage and there really isn't any way to make up significant ground because the riders all pack together. It's very destive and yes, some fans will pass the riders champagne, etc. It's a pretty cool tradition IMO.

Lance is da man!!!!!!!
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Old 07-27-2002, 06:03 PM   #3
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So is it a gentlemans agreement to not jockey for position?? I think I heard some commentators talk about some folks having a duel tommorrow. Still kind of confused??
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Old 07-28-2002, 04:08 AM   #4
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It is kind of a gentlemens agreement not to fight for overall position on the last stage to Paris. There have been some exeptions from this rule in the past, but only when it was very close (just a few seconds between 1st and 2nd in overall rankings), so the Nr.2 still had a chance to win it all. It only happened a couple of times though. Today nothing like this will happen since Armstrong is way ahaed of the competition.

The "duel" you were talking about will be between McEwen and Zabel for the green Jersey of the best sprinter. Since MCEwen is only one point ahaed of Zabel and there are alot of points to be gained on the last stage they will duke it out today. This is also very common. You can fight for the green jersey on the last stage, no gentlemens agreement here.
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Old 07-28-2002, 10:59 AM   #5
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Okay, the ugly American comes out now.

If they stop trying at the end.. that's rediculous. Almost as bad as a tie in Hockey. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Lance is kicking everyone's butt... but what if the 2nd and 3rd place guys are neck and neck? or 10th and 11th? What if I want to tell my grandkids that I finished in the top ten one year at the Tour de France.

BS BS BS BS BS.
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Old 07-28-2002, 04:18 PM   #6
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I think it is quite quaint and noble. Being able to cycle through france and basically party while the folks celebrate is quite cool. Everyone knew that yesterdays time trials were the last chance to make hay, I think in fact lamond did it one year. It could have been over yesterday and there just couldn't have been the same type of celebration. I think it is pretty cool.

I would never, ever,ever accuse these guys of anything less than busting a gut to win, not that you did.
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Old 07-28-2002, 04:27 PM   #7
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Nah, I just think they ought to either just not count it in the total time as a part of the actual course, or just let guys race.

You have to be a badass to do what they do. I'm just not a fan of the quaint. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
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Old 07-28-2002, 10:25 PM   #8
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Usually the only question about the finish is the best sprinter's green jersey. I'm not sure I understand why anyone would bash a tradition of a great sport. Do we bash the 7th inning stretch? Do we bash the unwritten gentlemans baseball agreements such as not stealing when up by 4 in the 8th, etc? It's a great tradition and a great sport.
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Old 07-28-2002, 10:29 PM   #9
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Reread my first post. I'm only bashing it if it affects the outcome of the standings. What if some of the pack are neck and neck and one guy really wants to finish top 5? See what I'm saying?
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Old 07-29-2002, 03:40 AM   #10
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Rhylan, like I said: if it´s close they will fight for positions. Even on the last stage. It happened yesterday where Rumsas (3rd in overall ranking) attacked relentlessly, cause he tried to gain some time on Beloki (2nd overall) so that he could grab the 2nd place overall. In the end he had no succes, but he tried a couple times. Same would have happened for the 1st place overall, if it would have been close.
And this whole thing is not so much a gentlemens agreement (even if it´s called that way) it´s more like being realistic. The last stage is totally flat, so it´s virtually impossible for anyone to gain more than a few seconds if there are certain teams who don´t want him to. On a flat stage a team of 8 or 9 drivers on top of the main group has such a huge advantage over one or two drivers who try to attack on their own. Even if there is a group of 5 or 6 attackers the main group will always catch them on a flat stage if they really work for it.
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:13 AM   #11
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Well said Fidel.
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:48 AM   #12
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Oh, and congrats to Lance. I didn´t follow it much this year though.
And if anybody wants to know why. Take a look here (it german). It seems like 3rd overall Rumsas was on drugs. Stuff that can´t be found through testing. Just what I thought. Still he lost nearly 10 mins on Lance. So someone who is on drugs got beaten by someone who´s clean? No way, I don´t buy it. They all have talent. And when the talent level is nearly the same, the influence of drugs in endurance sports can be pretty high.
There´s no way a clean world class athlete beats another world class athlete who does drugs by that much. Maybe Lance could be just as good as others if he was clean and the others were not, but he can´t be THAT much better, unless he does drugs himself.
The point: they are all on drugs. And cycling is in a very sad state.
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:57 AM   #13
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"Oh, and congrats to Lance. I didn´t follow it much this year though.
And if anybody wants to know why. Take a look here (it german). It seems like 3rd overall Rumsas was on drugs. Stuff that can´t be found through testing. Just what I thought. Still he lost nearly 10 mins on Lance. So someone who is on drugs got beaten by someone who´s clean? No way, I don´t buy it. They all have talent. And when the talent level is nearly the same, the influence of drugs in endurance sports can be pretty high.
There´s no way a clean world class athlete beats another world class athlete who does drugs by that much. Maybe Lance could be just as good as others if he was clean and the others were not, but he can´t be THAT much better, unless he does drugs himself.
The point: they are all on drugs. And cycling is in a very sad state"

it's sad that you think that little of people that you would assume that anyone that performs at that level must be on drugs.

did you ever think that maybe he works harder..or maybe he DOES have more God given ability?
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:00 AM   #14
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there's world class athletes in virtually every sport that are clean that dominate athletes that may use illegal drugs.
and i'm sure there are some that are using illegal drugs that do make it to the top.

however, for you to assume that lance armstong is using drugs without any proof..anything to back your statement up. well, let's just say that it's a very irresponsible statement to make
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:16 AM   #15
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<< Oh, and congrats to Lance. I didn´t follow it much this year though.
And if anybody wants to know why. Take a look here (it german). It seems like 3rd overall Rumsas was on drugs. Stuff that can´t be found through testing. Just what I thought. Still he lost nearly 10 mins on Lance. So someone who is on drugs got beaten by someone who´s clean? No way, I don´t buy it. They all have talent. And when the talent level is nearly the same, the influence of drugs in endurance sports can be pretty high.
There´s no way a clean world class athlete beats another world class athlete who does drugs by that much. Maybe Lance could be just as good as others if he was clean and the others were not, but he can´t be THAT much better, unless he does drugs himself.
The point: they are all on drugs. And cycling is in a very sad state.
>>



This is chicken comment. You don't know that for a fact, so why propose it. Is tiger on drugs, was jordan on drugs,
is shaq on drugs. It's just BS.. If you have some facts, trot 'em out, if not quit besmirching someones reputation
because you are jealous of their committment and accomplishments.
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Old 07-29-2002, 10:38 AM   #16
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Man am I disappointed in that comment. Since you present it as your opinion, I will not bash you, but Lance has taken every freaking durg test known to man and has NEVER...NOT EVEN ONCE....NEVER failed a drug test. He is just that good. His God-given talent combined with an incredible work ethic and heart of a lion has gotten him to where he is now...not drugs. He has been tested for some of the newer drugs...still nothing. He is willing to be tested and has backed up his words with action by ALWAYS submitting to any test requested (are you listening Sammy Sosa?). Lance Armstrong represents everything that is good in sport. Period. And that is not only my opinion, but but the majority opinion.
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Old 07-29-2002, 11:22 AM   #17
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The reason why Europeans think cycling is in such a said state is because a clean American is whipping some ass
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Old 07-29-2002, 12:21 PM   #18
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Nay, a Texan, and this board is full of Texans. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Watch out.
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Old 07-29-2002, 12:53 PM   #19
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It's hard to imagine that a Texan is whipping ass of the Europeans in cycling. What's next..cricket?.. Will Texans start making better tea and &quot;scrumpets&quot;.
well, we have Ice Tea so we already do that better.

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Old 07-29-2002, 12:58 PM   #20
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What the hell are scrumptets anyway......and for that matter crumpets too. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
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Old 07-29-2002, 12:58 PM   #21
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Guys I knew I was going to get some slack for making such a comment on this board. So why did I make it? Because I love cycling. Used to do it myself as an ambitious hobby athlete. Attended a lot of cycling events like World Cup races and noumerous stages of TDF. But ever since 98 cycling is a pitty. It probably was before, but no one knew.

Armstrong has been accused of doping because he worked with Dr. Ferrari in Italy for a long time. And that´s a fact. Ferrari was also the Doc of nearly every top tier driver who has been tested positive in the last years. Such as Pantani, Frigo, Virenque, Moreau, Meier etc. After testing positive what have those drivers done? Nothing, compared to what they did before. They are a shadow of their former self. This leads to the belief that every TDF driver does drugs. Once they stop using them they fall way behind. It happened alot of times in the last years, so it can´t be overlooked.

Then there are certain drivers who are no longer active who say that EVERYONE is using drugs. Some say they didn´t want to but had no chance because of it, so they quit cycling.



<< The reason why Europeans think cycling is in such a said state is because a clean American is whipping some ass >>



Actually no Murph. The real cycling fans over here believe that EVERYONE is on drugs. Not just Armstrong, but also Beloki, Ullrich etc. So it´s not even a knock on Armstrong but on cycling in general. It is really unfair to the few drivers that may be clean. Compare it to baseball if you like. In baseball there are no tests at all. In cycling the drugs that are in use at the moment can´t be found through testing (mostly new blood doping stuff, no one is using EPO any more since 98. The few that still use it usually get caught cause, cause it can be found). So the situation is pretty much the same.

Anyways, I totally understand your reaction. I would have probably reacted the same way if I was from Texas. I just stated my opinion, and believe me it´s shared by a lot of people in Europe. We all hope that there will be a solution to this mess soon.

Oh and comparing Golf or Basketball to cycling doesn´t work very well. The sports have nothing in common.
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:22 PM   #22
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fidel, i doubt very seriously that &quot;every&quot; real cycling fan in Europe believes all TDF cyclists are on performance enhancing drugs... very doubtful.
and you've still come up with nothing to back-up your claims that he's on drugs..nothing. Armstrong has taken every drug test they've asked him to take and nothing has been found. So, there is no reason to believe that he is on performance enhancing drugs from my perspective.
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:25 PM   #23
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it sure as hell is a knock on armstrong. you're beating someone down and making claims against a guy that has done everything possible to clear his name..taken every drug test..done everything asked. it's not just because he's a texan. it is because he is someone that has bent over backwards for cycling..and bent over backwards to make sure his name is clean and people like you keep throwing shit like this out there
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:29 PM   #24
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Right on murph.... give him h***.
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:31 PM   #25
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just a question.. what in the hell does the guy have to do to keep the bitter European off of his back?

(no, not every european is bitter...i'm just talking about the bitter ones that are involved in this situation)
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Old 07-29-2002, 01:48 PM   #26
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<< and you've still come up with nothing to back-up your claims that he's on drugs..nothing. Armstrong has taken every drug test they've asked him to take and nothing has been found. So, there is no reason to believe that he is on performance enhancing drugs from my perspective. >>


The drugs they probably take can´t be found through testing. Armstrong and others have been working with Dr. &quot;EPO&quot; Ferrari. Several exdrivers (and that includes teammates of Lance) have said every driver does drugs. Leipheimer and Livingston, who were pretty good (Leipheimer was 3rd ovrall tour of spain) when they were still with USPostal, did absolutely nothing this year. Alot of drivers who Armstrong beat pretty good over the years have been caught. If you call all this nothing than fine.
I guess what it would need to make you believe in this is a postive test. The problem: there are no tests for those drugs.
And no, it´s not a knock on Armstrong. If I say everyone does it he´s still the best right? IMO drugs should be allowed in any sport, cause they can´t be controlled and they are virtually everywhere. I´d hate such a solution, but right now there is no other way to make certain sports &quot;fair&quot; again (it´s just as big of a problem in track and field for example).
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Old 07-29-2002, 02:27 PM   #27
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once again.. armstrong has taken every drug test that they've asked him to take and just because some bitter drivers that have been repeatedly beaten by armstrong say that &quot;everyone&quot; is on drugs...well, that adds nothing to your argument
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Old 07-29-2002, 02:27 PM   #28
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waaaaahhh, i lost... he cheated....waaaah
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Old 07-29-2002, 02:32 PM   #29
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that argument stinks worse than players/coaches/owners whining about NBA officiating after every loss
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Old 07-29-2002, 02:57 PM   #30
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<< armstrong has taken every drug test that they've asked him to take >>


once again, those tests really prove nothing. I explained why, no need to do it again. Anyways I´ll rest it since debating it any further will lead to nothing. Just don´t try so hard to ignore the other stuff. Farrari was Armstrongs Doc. That´s a fact. He used to have alot to do with drugs. There is a trial over this in Italy right now. That´s another fact. Lance even had to go there as a witness.
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Old 07-29-2002, 03:10 PM   #31
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what do you want the guy to do?
answer me that?
..please, oh great God of cycling...tell armstrong what to do so he can clear his name in your eyes
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Old 07-29-2002, 04:22 PM   #32
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Murphy: nothing. Like I said, to me it´s really not about Armstrong, but about cycling.
Here are some articles I found. Just a quick search, and just so you can see this isn´t coming out of the blue.
Here is one. It´s french. Another one in german. More, this is good, look at the end of the text some of the bigger names who worked with Ferrari are listed there. Last one for now.
The last three links are all in german.
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Old 07-29-2002, 04:33 PM   #33
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That he worked with Ferrari means nothing. It raises suspicion, but it means nothing in an of itself.

Lance has submitted to everything requested. These mysterious &quot;untraceable&quot; drugs pose a problem. Any links on these drugs, their effects, and why they can't be traced? There are tests for everything. I just can't buy it.
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Old 07-29-2002, 04:36 PM   #34
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Another one. This time in english. Pretty good. More in english. Another good one. In english, with a little bit of facts on the drugs.
It´s everywhere on the net. Just have to do a simple search. And see how they all talk about Ferrari and Armstrong, but also about cycling in general. That´s exactly my position.
Another very good site. French this time. And here is the main page. Only about doping in cycling. Thousands of articles. On this page you can also find info on the drugs that can´t be found. Look for HGH, PFC and RSR-13, HGC, ACGH mainly. But there is a lot of other stuff. Mostly hormones and synthetics. The effects of those drugs are basicly either like steroids or like EPO. The problem with all of this stuff is that it only needs to be modified slightly and then it can´t be traced any more. I believe that they recently found a method to trace HGH, but shortly after that there was a slightly modified version of it that was found in the baggage of a track and field athlete.
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Old 07-29-2002, 06:00 PM   #35
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So if they can't test for it, how the hell do they know what it is when they find it in an athletes baggage?
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Old 07-29-2002, 06:16 PM   #36
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what this shows is that drug use either IS or has been rampant. Putting a lot of credence in the USOC is kind of laughable however, seeing as how they use consistent bribery as some of their criteria.

Obviously there is nothing that lance can do to change your mind, he can take a drug test a minute and you won't believe it. So nevermind, since you know it to be true, you can go ahead thinking it.

However this thread was begun about a quaint, honorable tradition of the last day of cycling, you have turned it into a cynical, selfish rant.
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Old 07-30-2002, 04:36 AM   #37
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<< So if they can't test for it, how the hell do they know what it is when they find it in an athletes baggage? >>


Doc it´s one thing to have the substance in your hands, and a completely different one if you want to find any proof through blood testing that someone used it.
There will be a solution though. Test the DNS. All of these substances leave fingerprints there. They can even be backtracked. I´m not sure if this is fully practicable right now, but it will be.
And Doc, I apologize for being hard on Lance. I know how much you like him. But believe me this wasn´t meant to be about Lance, but about cycling, I really loved the sport.
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Old 07-30-2002, 07:34 PM   #38
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Lance Armstreong represents everything that is right with sports....and even more importantly...everything that is right with humanity.
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Old 07-30-2002, 07:59 PM   #39
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all germans do drugs
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Old 07-30-2002, 08:42 PM   #40
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<< all germans do drugs >>


of course, i thought i'd just knee jerk similar to fidel..
i don't have ANYTHING to back up what I have to say... someone might have said it once and that's good enough for me.

well fidel, that's about as much as you have to go on, so i thought i'd do the exact same.

now, look at my blanket statement..you'll see that it doesn't make much sense. well, i hope you get the point
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