Dirk vs. Kobe - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

AxdemxO · 12-04-2005, 02:00 PM

Not sure if this is the rite place to put this..but anyways.

I have noticed many call Kobe the best player in the game..personally i hate Kobe and i think he is the most Selfish player in the WORLD.

But tell me one thing...Kobe takes 35 shots and scores 30 points and Dirk takes 20 shots and scores 30 points plus gets like 12 rebounds and some more nice stats.

How does this make Kobe a better player than Dirk...and pleasee keep the chamionships out of the conversation....tht was mostly Shaq who by the way is doing much better on without Kobe thn Kobe is without him.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 03:30 PM

Kobe is an imposter. If the best player in the game can't get them greater than a .500 record, he's a faker...

Hey....laker.....faker...raper..... Yup...sorta fits...

aexchange · 12-04-2005, 04:01 PM

is there any question that dirk is the better player than kobe? not really.

if you look at the talent between the mavericks and the lakers, the difference between the two isnt that staggering. not 20 wins worth of talent by any means.

lets assume that dirk and kobe are a push.

lakers starting lineup
smush parker/bryant/odom/kwame brown/chris mihm

mavs starting lineup
terry/daniels/jho/nowitzki/dampier

we've had no stackhouse, no christie. benches are pretty equivalent. diop and bynum are pretty equivanlent. cook and van horn are both offensive minded players who provide little else. mckie and armstrong are the grizzled vets on the bench.

i think most everyone would say that phil jackson is the better coach between AJ and pjax.

so why do the lakers suck so much butt? its because kobe single handedly shoots his team into oblivion every single game. forcing up terrible shots. not passing the ball. being just a disaster, hes absolutely pathetic. i think if you put ray allen on the lakers, they'd have a better record.

AxdemxO · 12-04-2005, 04:09 PM

The reson i say all tht is because i think Dirk doesnt get any respect..Dirk is not selfish, dosnt go out there and take 40 shots every nite and by doing this his team loses.

Kobe does all tht and all those DUMB ASS commentaters say he is a better player. They think they kno everything ..especially Kenny and Charles.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 04:24 PM

Don't worry about it Ax...You probably wouldn't understand. ;->

mary · 12-04-2005, 04:43 PM

Here's some info that is only slightly related to this thread (forgive me)

Last night after the game Dirk gave a Q & A session with German language students in the area. My mom's a teacher at one of the schools so I was able to attend. Ninety five percent of it was in German, but later my sister-in-law translated it for me. Most of it was normal fluffy teenager type questions but someone asked Dirk who the best player in the league was (a question I actually understood because I remembered what "spielman" meant).

His answer (in order): Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady,Shaq and Steve Nash is still his boy.

I thought it was interesting because 3 of the 4 players he named were guards, and there was no mention of either Duncan or Garnett. (not that he doesn't speak highly of both, of course.)

AxdemxO · 12-04-2005, 04:48 PM

Aghhhhhhhh..Dirk... wht is he thinking...Not only is he better thn Kobe..But Garnett and TD are def. better.
I think thts just Dirk bein humble....But still dont mention Kobe first.

ohh also good thing he didnt mention LeBron....because i m sik of hearin bout LeBron and he hasnt even made the plaoffs yet.

mary · 12-04-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Aghhhhhhhh..Dirk... wht is he thinking...Not only is he better thn Kobe..But Garnett and TD are def. better.
I think thts just Dirk bein humble....But still dont mention Kobe first.

ohh also good thing he didnt mention LeBron....because i m sik of hearin bout LeBron and he hasnt even made the plaoffs yet.

Oh yeah, actually is initial answer was something like "I am of course!", or whatever the German equivalent would be. Then he said he was just kidding

. He's humble and he has a pretty good sense of humor.

Those kids were a total beating and he genuinely didn't seem to mind answering their mundane and silly questions.

Thespiralgoeson · 12-04-2005, 07:19 PM

Dirk Nowiztki is not only my all-time favorite NBA player but my all-time favorite athlete. Kobe Bryant is my absolute least favorite athlete. That being said, I honestly believe that Kobe is the best player in the NBA.

#1MavsFan · 12-04-2005, 07:58 PM

Kobe isn't nearly surrounded by as much talent as Dirk. If Kobe doesn't score 40 the Lakers basically lose since they really don't have a reliable 2nd option unlike Dallas who has plenty. This board tends to overrate Dirk quite a bit when it comes to "the best players in the NBA". Dirk is definitely a top 10 talent, maybe top 5 but he still has a lot to prove. Kobe has won championships, has taken over games in the finals, etc.

Quote:

akers starting lineup
smush parker/bryant/odom/kwame brown/chris mihm

mavs starting lineup
terry/daniels/jho/nowitzki/dampier

Lets see how some of the Mavs bench players match up to the Lakers starters:
KVH (who would instantly be the #2 option for the Lakers if he was traded there)
DH (Would receive a lot of playing time)
Diop (Maybe their starting C?)

Now lets compare the Mavs starters.
Jet (would easily start on the Lakers)
Marquis (same as above, Kobe would slide over to the 3)
JHO (He'd start, no question)
Dampier (as much as some Mavs fans might think he sucks, he'd still easily start on the Lakers considering Mihm is a bit of a pushover defensively)

As much as I love Dirk, Kobe is the better player right now, and there’s no doubt the Mavs roster is much better w/o Dirk than the Lakers w/o Kobe.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 08:19 PM

Let's try this. I'll take RealGM.com rankings as my guide. If you have other rankings that are based on data you can do the same. Kwame Brown does jump out.

Smush Parker 89... Jet 61
Bryant 16.....Daniels 102
Odom 19...Josh 54
Kwame 239...Dirk 10
Mihm 135...Damp 154

Sorry...Just doesn't look that way to me. Bryant/Odom are top 20 for goodness sakes. Bryant is a cancer who can't even get that team above .500, flashy..yea, athletically talented...seems so....

Head case...oh yeah..

Murphy3 · 12-04-2005, 08:19 PM

Kobe should be a better NBA player, but he's not.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 08:21 PM

So should steve francis...

mavsman reloaded · 12-04-2005, 08:21 PM

Well, as the efficiency ranking tells us, one is more efficient than the other, and it's not Kobe. Besides, Lamar would be a starter on the Mavs and Smush is no worse than Devin.

#1MavsFan · 12-04-2005, 08:41 PM

As stated somewhere else on this board it's too early in the season to be using +/- / efficiency ratings. Odom would probably start on the Mavs but that would mean JHO would have to play out of position. Also Kobe is doubled and tripled almost every time down the court while that isn't always the case for Dirk since other teams just can't do that when KVH, Marquis, JHO, or Jet are on the court since those guys will hit shots. Do you realistically think the Lakers would even be competing in games without Kobe? I'm sure the Mavs would still be close in some games without Dirk, since they have a lot of talent outside of Dirk. Terry would be a #1 on many teams, and was before getting traded here. KVH/Marquis/JHO could be easily the #2 options on many teams. The Mavs have a lot more options than the Lakers, and that’s w/o getting past their sixth man.

I know you guys love Dirk (me2) and hate Kobe for his off the court stuff, but the fact is he is the only reason that team can even stay within 15 points of their opponents right now.

dirno2000 · 12-04-2005, 08:44 PM

Besides Odom for Howard, there's not one Mav I'd trade for his Laker counterpart.

Mihm is a PF who plays center because of his height. He's soft...always has been, even at UT. How else do you explain getting dominated by Stromile Swift in the NCAA's.

JT is a cold blooded killer who would punish teams for doubling Kobe...Smush Parker is one bad season away from the And-1 league.

Bynum vs Diop? They're the same player? Really? One was in high school this time last year, the other has been practicing against NBA competition for the last four years.

Keith Van Horn and Brian Cook are a wash because they're both offensive players? Never mind the fact that one (our guy) has a lot more talent and versatility.

Kobe does occasionally shoot too but if he shot less the Lakers would still lose. Somebody has to score and the rest of the team is either not willing or not able.

The Lakers major off-season acquisition was Kwame Brown and Kobe's the reason they're a .500 team?

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 09:07 PM

Well you guys tell me when numbers become a better barmoeter than your opinions. Then we can re-visit this.

But I still don't see it, there is no reason that Odom+Kobe cannot be a .500 team imo, except that kobe is a nutcase and only shaq being the dominant personality that he is kept him in line.

dirno2000 · 12-04-2005, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well you guys tell me when numbers become a better barmoeter than your opinions. Then we can re-visit this.

But I still don't see it, there is no reason that Odom+Kobe cannot be a .500 team imo, except that kobe is a nutcase and only shaq being the dominant personality that he is kept him in line.

What numbers would you like to use because it seems to me that you're just using Real GM's opinions. I'm not familiar with their rankings, are they stats based?

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 09:35 PM

Yes they are called a Tendex rating and I believe are used by many scouts to get an "more" objective ranking of players. It's not just scoring average for example. But in general it includes points, rebounds, blocks, assists, to's, etc. Usually Garnett leads the Tendex ratings...Duncan has always also been a top 5. 1-10 right now are: http://www.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php

Garnett, Iverson, Brand, Pierce, Camby, LeBron, Duncan, Marion, Wade, Nowitzki

Here is one link that I googled
http://www.dougstats.com/Tendex.html

#1MavsFan · 12-04-2005, 10:24 PM

You can't factor in the fact that Kobe is always doubled or tripled teamed while that’s not always the case for Dirk. Plus Kobe has to shoot around 30 shots no matter what since whom else would you want shooting if you're LA? The Mavs have tons of scorers that should shoot some, thus Dirk isn't always on the spot to make things happen. Also Odom seems to be overrated a bit in this thread.

aexchange · 12-04-2005, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

You can't factor in the fact that Kobe is always doubled or tripled teamed while that’s not always the case for Dirk. Plus Kobe has to shoot around 30 shots no matter what since whom else would you want shooting if you're LA? The Mavs have tons of scorers that should shoot some, thus Dirk isn't always on the spot to make things happen. Also Odom seems to be overrated a bit in this thread.

since when has dirk never been double or triple teamed?

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 10:35 PM

Again, maybe he's doubled or tripled because they know he's going to shoot it? I don't know I don't watch them. All I do know is that he and Odom should be able to get a team to 0.500 it would seem. But they cannot. Maybe it's because like Iverson he's jacking up 30 shots a game or something.

If the guy is getting doubled and even triple teamed how come his assists keep coming down.. .You ask who else should shoot it, well the guy who is open would be my answer...Let's see on the lakers team starters...who is shooting better than kobe. Kobe is at 42% it seems..

Smush Parker 48%-- Hey that's not too bad.
Odom 41%...Not nearly as good as kobe I admit.
Kwame 41%....Again not nearly up to Kobe's level.
Mihm 48%. THIS is the guy!!

I don't understand why you are saying the rest of the team cannnot shoot, they are ALL shooting as well or better than superstar.

#1MavsFan · 12-04-2005, 10:36 PM

I didn't say “never”, but he's not doubled as much as Kobe. Teams basically commit their whole D to stopping Kobe while when playing the Mavs they have to also deal with KVH, Jet, JHO, Marquis, etc. Also I'm surprised no one has brought their defensive talents into this thread. I wonder why.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

I didn't say “never”, but he's not doubled as much as Kobe. Teams basically commit their whole D to stopping Kobe while when playing the Mavs they have to also deal with KVH, Jet, JHO, Marquis, etc. Also I'm surprised no one has brought their defensive talents into this thread. I wonder why.

Actually the realgm numbers do bring his defensive talents into it in the form of steals, blocks, etc.

But don't you see an issue with a guy who is triple-teamed everytime jacking up 30 shots a game. Doesn't that seem a little...oh....what's the word I'm looking for...... self centered?

#1MavsFan · 12-04-2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Smush Parker 48%-- Hey that's not too bad.
Odom 41%...Not nearly as good as kobe I admit.
Kwame 41%....Again not nearly up to Kobe's level.
Mihm 48%. THIS is the guy!!

I'll admit Smush has shown to be a pretty good shooter so far, but he needs to be a lot more consistent. Odom brings up his shooting % by the easy shots created by Kobes penetration. Kwame, same as Odom. Mihm is basically a joke, literally, he gets a good deal of his points on put backs when no one is even close to him.

Quote:

Again, maybe he's doubled or tripled because they know he's going to shoot it? I don't know I don't watch them. All I do know is that he and Odom should be able to get a team to 0.500 it would seem. But they cannot. Maybe it's because like Iverson he's jacking up 30 shots a game or something.

You should than watch him, other than just taking basically a guess. You really overrate Odom he's not that much of a difference maker. The Lakers and their opponents know for a fact that Kobe has to shoot the ball if the Lakers have a chance thus he's followed around by a group of players everywhere he goes. Also last time I checker AI was having an amazing season.

dude1394 · 12-04-2005, 10:55 PM

Philedelphia (8-10)... Yea about the same as the lakers. If THAT's an amazing season then they can have it.

#1MavsFan · 12-04-2005, 11:01 PM

Once again, his supporting cast just isn't as strong. 34/7/3 with under 3 TO's per game while shooting over 45% is pretty amazing. Oh not to mention he’s averaging 2 steals per game with only about 1.5 pf's per game.

aexchange · 12-04-2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

I didn't say “never”, but he's not doubled as much as Kobe. Teams basically commit their whole D to stopping Kobe while when playing the Mavs they have to also deal with KVH, Jet, JHO, Marquis, etc. Also I'm surprised no one has brought their defensive talents into this thread. I wonder why.

what good are defensive talents if you don't bring it for 48 minutes, or you are putting your team into a hole because of your shooting? you talk about jho, marquis, and KVH like they're individual offensive juggernauts that have to be reckoned with.

thats absolutely preposterous. jho is getting better but he isn't nearly the all around talent that odom is, in fact the discrepancy between the two is pretty damn large. marquis and kvh are two of the most overrated players in mavs history next to shawn bradley and michael finley.

are you saying that the talent difference between the two is worth 20 wins?

absolutely not.

dirno2000 · 12-05-2005, 12:02 AM

Dude the problem whith using shooting % as a measure of how shots should be distributed is that you're assuming Chris Mihm could maintain that % if he was asked to carry a bigger load on offense. Using that line of reasoning Damp should be leading the Mavs in fga's.

alby · 12-05-2005, 12:04 AM

that is true, but you have to admit that shooting percentage is a big deal when you are taking 35 shots a game?

AxdemxO · 12-05-2005, 12:11 AM

Well as far as i kno Odom is an allstar....He was a rising star before he ended up wit the Lakers...Since thn he has disappeared...Why?? because Kobe is selfish and doesnt wanna play with him...they should be .500 or better wit the team tht they got and its all Kobe's doin thts diggin thm in.

And u say he is double and triple teamed well tht means guys are open,,maybe it would b a good idea to pass once in a while instead of shooting over 3 guys..hmmmm.

#1MavsFan · 12-05-2005, 12:32 AM

Odom isn't anywhere near an all-star, imo JHO is closer (Odom hasn't looked that great this year if you've watched any Lakers games). Also who do you exactly pass to?

Mihm who might or might not make the open lay-up?
Smush is either on fire or cold so he's not always an option.
Odom usually needs someone to create for him so yeah.
Kwame isn't exactly that great just ask the Wizards.
Brian Cook is basically a spare.

So that basically only leaves the all world shooting guard on the team.

BTW Dude, I'm not trying to say Marquis, JHO, and KVH are "offensive juggernauts" just that their much better options than what the Lakers have outside of Kobe.

Also I'd suggest watching a Lakers game, you'll be surprised by what you see.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2005, 12:40 AM

Yea i watch every game i can because i love watchin thm lose because of Kobe. Odom is an allstar and like i said playing with Kobe..even Dirk prolly wouldnt look lika an allstar.

alby · 12-05-2005, 02:31 AM

phil jackson has to take as much of the blame as anyone else IMO.

Five-ofan · 12-05-2005, 03:40 AM

Jho is better than odom???? No offense but have you lost your damn mind??? Odom is better than anyone on this team but dirk. Hell before he got to LA people were saying odom was close to dirk. To be fair whoever said KVH and Cook were equal is way wrong to. KVH is MUCHHHHHH better than Cook. The mavs overall have more talent. Last year it was dang close.

Chucky atkins is dang close to being as good a shooter as Jet. Not as good a player but nearly as good a shooter. Caron is about even with Jho and quis. Hes in that range. Odom would have clearly been the mavs second best player just as he would here. Stat wise mihm is about equal with damp but damp is better. Benches favored the mavs and if it was the playoffs that would be no biggie but for regular season its does help your record. All that said the mavs were slightly better talent wise but not as much as the record indicated. Put it this way. Does anyone really think a lineup of
Atkins
Caron
Odom
Dirk
Mihm doesnt win 50 games??? I would put serious money on that team winning 50 games. Kobe is one of the most talented players in the nba. He isnt the best. Its not that close. This year, the talent gap has widened because Caron is gone and Kwame doesnt do crap. If its those too, give me dirk. Its not a tie but even if it was give me dirk. Dirk has been the best player on this team since his 3rd year. Kobe was the best player last year for the first time. It failed miserably. Switch dirk and kobe and the lakers still won the 3 titles AND they woulda beat the pistons. Thus the titles arent really a great barometer.

Five-ofan · 12-05-2005, 08:22 AM

BTW when yall are talking about Odom #1 you might want to watch a game or 2. You sound like barley because its clear youve never watched him play. He creates for others. Moreso than Kobe does btw. Odom isnt a spot up shooter or something like that. He is a point forward. Why would he need someone to create for him. Go watch a lakers game before you comment on them as if you know everything about them. Also about the shooting percentages, Odom's sucks too.

aexchange · 12-05-2005, 09:41 AM

odom is averaging 15 pts, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, and 1.7 steals a game.

how are those not all star numbers?

give me a damn break.

spreedom · 12-05-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

odom is averaging 15 pts, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, and 1.7 steals a game.

how are those not all star numbers?

give me a damn break.

He's doing it with Antoine Walker efficiency.. Odom shoots a terrible percentage and only accumulates the boards and assists because he dominates the ball so much and is afraid to shoot when Kobe's in the game.

aexchange · 12-05-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

He's doing it with Antoine Walker efficiency.. Odom shoots a terrible percentage and only accumulates the boards and assists because he dominates the ball so much and is afraid to shoot when Kobe's in the game.

i've watched quite a few games and i've never seen him dominate the ball. now i do grant that he is afraid to shoot with kobe in the game, but i think the reason he has the ball so much is mostly by design because they don't have any other playmakers who can create.

i think he'd dominate the ball just as much in dallas b/c he's such a versatile talent.

EricaLubarsky · 12-05-2005, 12:36 PM

I just think its funy when Dirk goes 3-15 or something like that and Kobe shoots 4-20 or 6-30 or something like that. When Dirk isnt scoring the guy is timid. When Kobe isnt hitting the mark, he just keeps on shooting