Dirk vs. Kobe - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 12-05-2005, 02:32 PM

I'm not sure I really buy that timid bit. I think you could probably look at the last week as an example.

Sorry Erica, I'll have to dock you some reputation.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2005, 03:33 PM

I think Kobe is effecting Odoms percentage...Odom is a better shooter thn his numbers show...i think Kobe keeps the ball and once he realizes tht he cant do much with it an dthere is 1 second left he just gives it to Odom who has to put up bad shots.

Dirk knows whn he is not shootin good ..he lets others shoot...and he tries to get to the line more...i have seen a couple of games where Dirk was 3-15 ans had like 10 ft attempts ending up with like 20 pts.

I THINK IN KOBES CASE AS LONG AS HE HIT BAKBOARD OR RIM ITS A GOOD SHOT.

alby · 12-05-2005, 03:55 PM

Odom is one of the best talents in the NBA on one of the worst built teams. He is probably having his worst season as a pro.

#1MavsFan · 12-05-2005, 04:21 PM

Wow Odom is starting to become the most overrated player in the NBA around here. His shooting percentage isn't that great despite taking pretty much easy shots that Kobe or Smush kick out to him by penetrating to the hole. He's missed more than his share of pretty much open 10 footers. Kobe has to create for his teammates or they won't score and even than they might not. For Kobe to do that he has to have the ball in his hands especially when there’s no one else to give the ball to. He does force quite a bit of shots but he realizes as well as Phil, the media, and the fans that he needs to if the Lakers are to have a chance in the game.

Does anyone in their right mind think the Lakers would win more games without Kobe? Thought so.

dirno2000 · 12-05-2005, 04:23 PM

Odom is a nice player but if you put him with Dirk and a bunch of scrubs, they wouldn't make the playoffs in the West.

I'm still trying to figure out which Mav the Kobe bashers would trade for his Laker counterpart. I'd take Odom over Josh but beyond that, theres not even a trade that I'd consider.

The problem with the Lakers is not Kobe, it's the fact that they won't take on any big contracts past the year 2007 because that's when they're clearing cap room for the big FA run.

BTW, if Dirk doesn't like the way things are going here, keep an eye out for LA as a possible destination.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2005, 05:15 PM

OK HELLOOOO PEOPLE...ODOM IS A PF ...HE CREATES HIS OWN SHOTS...KOBE DOES NOT NEED TO CREATE SHOTS FOR HIM...WHICH PART OF THAT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

TAKE KOBE OFF LAKERS AND PUT DIRK AND THE LAKER MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

BUT WHT ABOUT LAST YEAR..WHY DIDNT THEY MAKE THE PLAYOFF LAST YEAR....KOBE, BUTLER, ODOM, ATKINS...KOBE WAS BEING SELFISH.

COMPARE THEIR TALENT LAST YEAR TO THE ROX TALENT...NO DIFFERENCE....MCGRADY, YAO, AND DAMM CANT EVEN NAME ANOTHE GOOD PLAYER..YET THE ROX MADE THE PLAYOFF..HMMMMMMMMMMM.

aexchange · 12-05-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Odom is a nice player but if you put him with Dirk and a bunch of scrubs, they wouldn't make the playoffs in the West.

I'm still trying to figure out which Mav the Kobe bashers would trade for his Laker counterpart. I'd take Odom over Josh but beyond that, theres not even a trade that I'd consider.

The problem with the Lakers is not Kobe, it's the fact that they won't take on any big contracts past the year 2007 because that's when they're clearing cap room for the big FA run.

have to respectfully disagree with you here dino. they may not make the playoffs, but they wouldn't be 20 games worse than the mavs either. i think dirk has had a positive influence on just about every person who's come thru here except for dampier. he's managed to make terry into a superstar with the constant attention that dirk draws.

he's managed to make marquis and howard very good players as well. i don't see that kind of impact with kobe on any players on the lakers other than maybe smush parker and chris mihm.

edelweiss1970 · 12-05-2005, 08:38 PM

Thanks for the nod Mary, but don't forget the most important question for the night from the kids, his favorite shampoo!!! But it was a great Q & A session and I enjoyed every minute of it.

#1MavsFan · 12-06-2005, 01:48 AM

AxdemxO, Kobe doesn't have a player caliber of Yao or McGrady on his team so your comparison makes no sense at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

have to respectfully disagree with you here DDH. they may not make the playoffs, but they wouldn't be 20 games worse than the mavs either. i think dirk has had a positive influence on just about every person who's come thru here except for dampier. he's managed to make terry into a superstar with the constant attention that dirk draws.

he's managed to make marquis and howard very good players as well. i don't see that kind of impact with kobe on any players on the lakers other than maybe smush parker and chris mihm.

Umm, wasn't Terry already somewhat of a star and a #1 option in Atlanta before he met Dirk? Who's to say that JHO and Marquis wouldn't be equally as good or better on the Lakers right now? Plus the coaching staff probably had something to do with their development as well. Those are some very iffy comparisons.

Five-ofan · 12-06-2005, 01:50 AM

No there isnt a player the caliber of tmac on the Lakers. Odom and Yao are closer than you think. Yao is more valuable because he is a big though.

#1MavsFan · 12-06-2005, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

OK HELLOOOO PEOPLE...ODOM IS A PF ...HE CREATES HIS OWN SHOTS...KOBE DOES NOT NEED TO CREATE SHOTS FOR HIM...WHICH PART OF THAT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

TAKE KOBE OFF LAKERS AND PUT DIRK AND THE LAKER MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

BUT WHT ABOUT LAST YEAR..WHY DIDNT THEY MAKE THE PLAYOFF LAST YEAR....KOBE, BUTLER, ODOM, ATKINS...KOBE WAS BEING SELFISH.

COMPARE THEIR TALENT LAST YEAR TO THE ROX TALENT...NO DIFFERENCE....MCGRADY, YAO, AND DAMM CANT EVEN NAME ANOTHE GOOD PLAYER..YET THE ROX MADE THE PLAYOFF..HMMMMMMMMMMM.

Umm Kobe actually had a pretty good season last year, if I was you I'd go back and look over his stats some before you start talking about him as basically a spare.

Ha had about 28 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game while playing some pretty tough defense. Oh yeah, btw he show almost 44% which isn't to bad considering you are your teams offense and are constantly doubled or tripled teamed.

Quote:

No there isnt a player the caliber of tmac on the Lakers. Odom and Yao are closer than you think. Yao is more valuable because he is a big though.

Again, Odom is vastly overrated around here; watch him for a few more games and than tell me what you think. He just isn't that great, plain and simple. The Rockets last year also had more weapons than Atkins and Butler outside of their big 2 believe it or not. Plus the coaching situation in LA had to have had a effect, as that situation usually does on a team.

alby · 12-06-2005, 03:30 AM

I think a huge part of it is because how he is used in L.A. that is greatly holding him back as a player. He was very good on the Clippers, and led the Heat to the playoffs along with their great rookie, Wade. This guy is 6' 10" young, athletic, long, and talented. Like I said, he is being wasted away in L.A.

Five-ofan · 12-06-2005, 03:44 AM

So how do you value Odom. Do you think he is a scrub? He is a top 35 player at least. He is a hell of alot better than you are giving him credit for. Again he is better than anyone but Dirk on the mavs. It was a thinly veiled shot at kobe when I said they had no one as good as Tmac on the lakers. Tmac and Kobe should cancel each other out as star swingmen. Other than that the remaining talent is very close. What weapons on the rockets are you talking about. Caron was better than the rockets 3rd best player. Bob sura? Wake up. Kobe is the opposite of what good players are supposed to do. He makes the players around him worse.

alby · 12-06-2005, 04:21 AM

Like I said, I view Lamar as one of the NBA's best talents..

AxdemxO · 12-06-2005, 02:15 PM

Thank u....... Five-ofan .......thts wht i am talking bout.

aexchange · 12-06-2005, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

Umm Kobe actually had a pretty good season last year, if I was you I'd go back and look over his stats some before you start talking about him as basically a spare.

Ha had about 28 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists per game while playing some pretty tough defense. Oh yeah, btw he show almost 44% which isn't to bad considering you are your teams offense and are constantly doubled or tripled teamed.

Again, Odom is vastly overrated around here; watch him for a few more games and than tell me what you think. He just isn't that great, plain and simple. The Rockets last year also had more weapons than Atkins and Butler outside of their big 2 believe it or not. Plus the coaching situation in LA had to have had a effect, as that situation usually does on a team.

you keep telling us to watch him play and i have. in fact, i've watched about 8 of their games this year from beginning to end. have you?

last year the rockets had "i'm mike james beotch" as their third option and they acquired him near the trade deadline. other than that, they had offensive powerhouses dikembe mutumbo, jon barry, david wesley, and juwan howard powering their best version of the 2000 sacramento kings.

so tell me just how the rockets had more weapons again? you keep making excuses for the lakers, citing the coaching situation last year. well, this year they have arguably the best coach in the game, yet they still stink. whats their excuse now?

better yet, whats your excuse now?

AxdemxO · 12-06-2005, 03:20 PM

I agree wit all tht u just said.

AxdemxO · 12-06-2005, 03:28 PM

Just to add this...as some1 said earlier Odom led a Heat team to the playoffs with a rookie Wade and a bunch of not so good role players.....Now it Kobe and Odom..how is it tht they cant make the playoffs??? Doesnt seem like its Odoms fault..So pleaseee stop wit the excuses.

dirno2000 · 12-06-2005, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

So how do you value Odom. Do you think he is a scrub? He is a top 35 player at least. He is a hell of alot better than you are giving him credit for. Again he is better than anyone but Dirk on the mavs. It was a thinly veiled shot at kobe when I said they had no one as good as Tmac on the lakers. Tmac and Kobe should cancel each other out as star swingmen. Other than that the remaining talent is very close. What weapons on the rockets are you talking about. Caron was better than the rockets 3rd best player. Bob sura? Wake up. Kobe is the opposite of what good players are supposed to do. He makes the players around him worse.

Couple of reason the Rockets comparison doesn't work

1) If you're Kobe/T-Mac and you can only have one other good player on the team, what position do you most want him to play? What position do you least want him to play?

2) I said this in the Rockets thread and I'll say it here: JVG's teams are almost always among the best in the league defensively. They play defense and let T-Mac take over in the 4th...it would work the same way if Kobe were there.

So last year T-Mac had JVG coaching and Yao and Deke guarding the rim. Kobe had a burned out Rudy T for half the year, a lame duck the rest of the year. Guarding the rim he had defensive stalwarts like Chris Mihm and Brian Cook.

That's just not as clean of a comparison as you guys are making it out to be.

snoop · 12-06-2005, 04:13 PM

how can you compare dirk and kobe. they play different positions and styles of ball. dirks a better rebounder but that is in part becuase hes 7 feet tall. kobe is a better ballhandler/penatrator b/c hes smaller and faster. if you are comparing what they do for their teams I would say its a draw. both are unstopable most of the time and neither of them where valued under shaq by their respective teams, so the arugment would be better suited for dirk/kg or kobe/tmac.

#1MavsFan · 12-06-2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snoop

how can you compare dirk and kobe. they play different positions and styles of ball. dirks a better rebounder but that is in part becuase hes 7 feet tall. kobe is a better ballhandler/penatrator b/c hes smaller and faster. if you are comparing what they do for their teams I would say its a draw. both are unstopable most of the time and neither of them where valued under shaq by their respective teams, so the arugment would be better suited for dirk/kg or kobe/tmac.

There we go, great post. Also AxdemxO it was quite a bit easier to make the playoffs in the east and that Heat team also had Eddie Jones, Grant, Haslem, and a couple other notable people on it.

Quote:

so tell me just how the rockets had more weapons again? you keep making excuses for the lakers, citing the coaching situation last year. well, this year they have arguably the best coach in the game, yet they still stink. whats their excuse now?

As Dirno said they were a very good defensive team and if you swap TMAC for Kobe you're left with:
Mutombo vs. Mihm (I'll take Mutombo even if he is 65)
Yao vs. Odom (Yaooo all the way.)
Sura vs. Atkins (pretty much a swap; Sura had more assists, but Atkins shot just a little better from 3 point land)
Juwan Howard vs. Brian Cook (Juwan had the better season)
Jumain Jones/Devin George vs. Mike James/Barry (Hate to break it to you but the houston lineup is better once again)

Ok lets add that up.
LA-0
Hou-4
1 Tie

Plus you add in the fact Houston had a much better team defense, which you just can't blame on Kobe considering he is a great defender.

AxdemxO · 12-06-2005, 05:24 PM

First..notable does not mean good..at leats not tht seson..but if u have an explenation plese give me one cuz i m a lil confused on tht.

And i believe ur forgeting Butler who was on the Lakers last year.
Mihm
Odom
Butler
Kobe
Atkins
with George bein 6th mann and some other bench players tht was a good enough team to make the playoffs.

Houston had Yao/ Tmac Sonics had Allen/Lewis along with 1 or 2 other "notable" palyers
but they made the playoffs.

And i dont think it was the D not with the Sonics....Kobe makes players around him worse.

Hitman · 12-06-2005, 05:58 PM

Erica -- I disagree that Dirk is timid when he is not hot. Maybe in the past, but definitely not now.

mavsman reloaded · 12-06-2005, 06:31 PM

In 92 and 93 there were at least 8 teams with better Centers than Cartwright in the Eastern Conference alone and about as many with better Point Guards than BJ. So for a player with Kobe's aspirations, he should at least make the playoffs no matter what.

dirno2000 · 12-06-2005, 06:55 PM

You do realize that the next year Jordan retired and Pippen led that team to 55 wins...

#1MavsFan · 12-06-2005, 06:55 PM

Than why shouldn't KG make it?

And AxdemxO, that Sonics team had much better starters and depth than the Lakers, that’s another comparison that makes little to no sense.

mavsman reloaded · 12-06-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You do realize that the next year Jordan retired and Pippen led that team to 55 wins...

Yes, dirno, I do realize that. And on a funny note, that fact seems to answer the question you had before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

If you're Kobe/T-Mac and you can only have one other good player on the team, what position do you most want him to play? What position do you least want him to play?

Five-ofan · 12-06-2005, 07:31 PM

Dirno I said earlier that while Odom is a better player than Yao, Yao is more valuable simply because of the position he plays.

dirno2000 · 12-06-2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsman reloaded

Yes, dirno, I do realize that. And on a funny note, that fact seems to answer the question you had before:

The problem with your anology is that Odom is a good player while Pippen is a Top 50 player and a hall of famer.

My point was that no matter what you think of Cartwright, Williams, Grant, BJ and that gang, they were good enough to win without Jordan...Kobe's supporting cast isn't even good enough to win with Kobe...unless you think that they'd be a playoff team without him.

dude1394 · 12-06-2005, 09:53 PM

Kobe and Odom should be able to have a winning record, period. Didn't an old michael jordan have a winning team? If he's the best player in the league for goodness sake, shouldn't he be able to win more than he loses.

mavsman reloaded · 12-06-2005, 09:55 PM

No, the problem with my anology is that MJ made Pippen a Top 50 Player while Kobe isn't even able to make Lamar an All Star. Dirk managed to have a group of complete scrubs - none of them even close to being ready for the NBA - competing for the World Championships in 2002. All on his own. Germany finished 3rd with Dirk being the only NBA player on the roster. The US finished 6th with Finley, JONeal, Brand, Ben Wallace, Marion, Pierce and Baron Davis. Kobe isn't even able to make the playoffs with Lamar on his roster.

dirno2000 · 12-06-2005, 10:13 PM

Joran didn't make Pippen.

Without Jordan Pippen averaged 22 points 9 rebounds 2 assists, 3 steals and finished 3rd in MVP voting.

Dirk did a a great job in leading Germany to the silver medal in the Euros but lets be honest, there were a number of NBA players (Pau Gasol, Peja) that chose not to play.

This isn't about Dirk tough. If you'll notice, I haven't said anything in this thread to discredit him. My point is that Kobe doesn't have the supporting cast that he needs to make the playoffs. The Lakers FO has done a horrible job of adding players that compliment him because they're chasing the 2007 pipe dream.

#1MavsFan · 12-06-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsman reloaded

No, the problem with my anology is that MJ made Pippen a Top 50 Player while Kobe isn't even able to make Lamar an All Star. Dirk managed to have a group of complete scrubs - none of them even close to being ready for the NBA - competing for the World Championships in 2002. All on his own. Germany finished 3rd with Dirk being the only NBA player on the roster. The US finished 6th with Finley, JONeal, Brand, Ben Wallace, Marion, Pierce and Baron Davis. Kobe isn't even able to make the playoffs with Lamar on his roster.

Umm Pippen was pretty damn good without MJ, remember when MJ went on his first retirement? Pippen pretty much carried the Bulls and didn't do too bad.

Five-ofan · 12-06-2005, 11:22 PM

I had this argument on dallasbasketball.com the other day. Pippen was my favorite player when I was a kid. The guy is incredibly underrated. Jordan was better but Pippen was almost as important to that team.

AxdemxO · 12-07-2005, 12:12 AM

Jordan would have never won tht many chamionships without Pippen.
Pippen is very underrated and without him Jordan would not have had the success tht he did.

Ohhhhh and its hard to find palyers to compliment Kobe because there isnt any....because of the fact that he is selfish and the way he plays.

#1MavsFan · 12-07-2005, 12:30 AM

Kobe doesn't have any players near the caliber of Pippen so yet again that comparison is way off base. Who do you suggest take a huge role in the Lakers Offense that isn't right now? Mihm? Devin? Kwame? Who?

AxdemxO · 12-07-2005, 01:03 AM

No one now is taking a roll in the offense..because Kobe is trying to do it by himself...

Odom is just as versitiles as Pippen was..maybe not as good yet..but hes up there...So maybe if Kobe decided to paly with Odom like Jordan did wit Pippen thn there would b better results.

Five-ofan · 12-07-2005, 02:48 AM

The difference between the two teams is that Pippen is the greatest defensive swingman ever. Jordan while he did take huge stretches off on D was a great defender when the time came. Rodman is the best defensive pf ever. You see where Im going with this? That was one of the great defensive teams ever. While I dont think Kobe gets the best out of his teammates the two teams simply arent comparable. The only similarities between those teams is PJ and that people think Kobe is similar to MJ when in reality they arent that similar. I think if you just take pip off the bulls teams and dont replace him with another superstar jordan would have never won a title but if they didnt have pip they would have more than likely gotten someone else.

dude1394 · 12-07-2005, 08:22 PM

Boy this thread wandered off. It started out as why Kobe is over-rated and why he can't get a team to the playoffs but then somehow wandered into comparing Kobe and current lakers to Jordan..

Kobe and Jordan...what a stretch, nowhere close to each other.

alby · 12-08-2005, 03:59 PM

it's true, its not even close..

i've always felt that kobe was/is the closest thing to Michael, but its really not even close.