Knicks do not have the cap room for two max contracts

[dude1394]

Jthig had a very interesting observation when talking about who the mavs could get in the off-season.

The Knicks do not have the cap room for two max contracts unless they move Jeffries and Curry.

This needs to go in a new thread though. Think of the people with real lives.

Discuss..

[jthig32]

I concur with whoever that is that you quoted. He's pretty sharp.

[Underdog]

Shouldn't this be in the "Around the NBA" section?

I mean, I know the cool kids of the forum have declared war on everyone else around here, but threads like this are junking up the "General Mavs Discussion" in the middle of some really big Mavs news.

(it's kinda like wishing that America would crumble under the Obama administration just so you can be "right" at the end of the day...)

[dude1394]

Thread Nazi's have taken over my thread.

[jthig32]

Let's get it back on topic:

I completely disagree with RMAComic's point here:

I think a lot of people are overestimating just how easy it will be to actually land a superstar type player this summer. There is one team in position to ruin every other teams summer. The Knicks.
New York has the potential to be the number one destination for every free agent this summer, and every team will want to deal with them first. The Knicks will get the first pick of the FA class of 2010. With 68 million coming off their books this year and another 14 mil in one year contracts to make deals with, the Knicks are the team best situated to sign multiple all-star free agents this summer.

How many of this years "Sammy Superstars" do you really think will leave their team? Two? Three, maybe? Even if New York gives away horrible contracts, (which they probably will), the rest of the league will be scrambling for their scraps. If you are going to move Damp, it needs to be now, while you are sure to get something for him. The summer of 2010 could be a bonanza for many teams, or it could be a bust for all but one.

If you believe everything you read, the big time superstars are concerned about winning more than about exposure. Obviously both are important, but I really don't think the Knicks are setup to be this huge gorilla in free agency.

Having one year contracts are not really going to be useful this summer. Teams aren't going to sign and trade their superstar to New York and take Curry or Jeffries back. That's just not going to happen.

Now I certainly don't think it's "going to be easy" to land a superstar. But I don't think the Knicks are holding the keys to the summer, by any stretch.

[dude1394]

I just do not see how we can discuss this item when it originated in the Cuban not wanting to make big trades thread. I mean it started there and should remain there. This thread has no separate purpose other than to pollute the board.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Thread Nazi's have taken over my thread.

I love being called a Nazi - it rarely happens to us non-Israeli Jews...


(let's be honest; neither of us really wants to talk about the Knicks!)

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I love being called a Nazi - it rarely happens to us non-Israeli Jews...


(let's be honest; neither of us really wants to talk about the Knicks!)

Me too, but conservatives get called it a lot so the excitement kinda wears off after awhile.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Me too, but conservatives get called it a lot so the excitement kinda wears off after awhile.

Conservatives have all the fun...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Conservatives have all the fun...

Da 'mn. TO NETFLIX!!!

[rmacomic]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Let's get it back on topic:

I completely disagree with RMAComic's point here:



If you believe everything you read, the big time superstars are concerned about winning more than about exposure. Obviously both are important, but I really don't think the Knicks are setup to be this huge gorilla in free agency.

Having one year contracts are not really going to be useful this summer. Teams aren't going to sign and trade their superstar to New York and take Curry or Jeffries back. That's just not going to happen.

Now I certainly don't think it's "going to be easy" to land a superstar. But I don't think the Knicks are holding the keys to the summer, by any stretch.

If you believe everything you read, then you would think if Wade goes anywhere it'll be to Chicago. You would also think, according to twitter, Bosh isn't interested in Dallas, and, according to numerous written sources, that LeBron will stay in Ohio or go to New York.

I am no analyst, (mostly because I actually watch the game, not just look at my stat sheet) , I'm just some jagoff with dsl. However, I do know enough not to count something as a sure deal. Hell if all that matters to a player is just a ring why don't they all just take a one year minimum deal with the Lakers and win 82 regular season games then go fo, fo , fo, fo in the playoff.

Also all responses should be in the form of a new thread.

[sefant77]

No nazi jokes or Dirk gets mad and exercise his player option!

And i meant the Knicks can sign 2 max contracts when they do that McGrady/Jeffries deal. But then they couldnt resign Lee.

[Dirkenstien]

I think we're good waiting for the off-season with the DUST chip.

In fact, the more other teams become Free Agent signing threats (New York, Miami, etc.), the better our chances of capitalizing on the DUST chip. Bottom line is we don't make any significant S&T without the legit possibility that Sammy walks away this off-season leaving his team with nothing.

It would go something like this:

Team GM:
"So Sammy, I can see you're serious about leaving us for New York but before you do, let's talk about maybe working a possible S&T with Dallas. You would get much more money for more years this way, you would go to a championship contending team in a good market with Jason Kidd, Dirk, Butler, Marion etc., and you would help us out, your former franchise and family, by allowing us to get some picks or prospects in return. What do you say?"

Sammy:
"More money for more years, compete for a championship with a talented group, good market, and I help you out in the process? Sure thing, let's get this thing done!"

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by rmacomic

If you believe everything you read, then you would think if Wade goes anywhere it'll be to Chicago. You would also think, according to twitter, Bosh isn't interested in Dallas, and, according to numerous written sources, that LeBron will stay in Ohio or go to New York.

I am no analyst, (mostly because I actually watch the game, not just look at my stat sheet) , I'm just some jagoff with dsl. However, I do know enough not to count something as a sure deal. Hell if all that matters to a player is just a ring why don't they all just take a one year minimum deal with the Lakers and win 82 regular season games then go fo, fo , fo, fo in the playoff.

Also all responses should be in the form of a new thread.

I'm not counting anything as a sure deal. Far from it. I just disagree that New York has a leg up on anyone. There will be several bad teams with room for one max contract, which is what New York is.

[rmacomic]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not counting anything as a sure deal. Far from it. I just disagree that New York has a leg up on anyone. There will be several bad teams with room for one max contract, which is what New York is.

Sorry, I am far too busy with my life to respond to this. If you start a new thread I might be able to clear some time in my schedule, how's Thursday the 23rd @ 2PM work for you?

[nikeball]

I'm confused, do they need to move BOTH Curry & Jefferies?

I am looking at their salaries and they have 27m committed for next year. Curry & Jefferies (18m) I assume will exercise their option. I assume they will trade Jefferies so that leaves them at 20m.

LBJ/Bosh/Wade will get around 18m each? 20 + 36 = 56m. I thought the cap was way higher than that. Am I missing something?

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

[alby]

Originally Posted by nikeball

I'm confused, do they need to move BOTH Curry & Jefferies?

I am looking at their salaries and they have 27m committed for next year. Curry & Jefferies (18m) I assume will exercise their option. I assume they will trade Jefferies so that leaves them at 20m.

LBJ/Bosh/Wade will get around 18m each? 20 + 36 = 56m. I thought the cap was way higher than that. Am I missing something?

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

2009/2010
Salaray Cap = $57-ish million
Luxury Tax = $69-ish million

[bobatundi]

I'm really wondering what the Knicks will end up with (since I live here and have a partial-season package). They're actually completely renovating MSG over the next two years, so not only will whoever signs here have a chance to resurrect basketball in NY, they'll get to usher in a new era of basketball in the new & improved MSG.

That said...I can't see why LeBron or Wade would want to come to this team. If the Knicks do manage to sign two of these guys, they'll have to renounce--or S&T--David Lee. Meaning a starting lineup of, hypothetically, LeBron, Bosh, Gallinari, Wilson Chandler & Toney Douglas, with my dog Nacho coming off the bench (he's only 11 lbs, but he's got mad hops). No first-rounder this year, and if they pull off this McGrady deal, that's probably going to cost them additional future draft picks. Are you really happy with that scenario if you're one of those guys?

My prediction is the Knicks end up with two guys who are a notch below the top dogs. Joe Johnson has been wasting away in obscurity in Atlanta--I'm sure he would love to be The Man in NYC. And Carlos Loozer is the biggest contract whore in the NBA, he'd sign with the Washington Generals if it meant more money. So that's my prediction--Boozer & Johnson in NY...probably enough for a low playoff seed, but little more.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by nikeball

I'm confused, do they need to move BOTH Curry & Jefferies?

I am looking at their salaries and they have 27m committed for next year. Curry & Jefferies (18m) I assume will exercise their option. I assume they will trade Jefferies so that leaves them at 20m.

LBJ/Bosh/Wade will get around 18m each? 20 + 36 = 56m. I thought the cap was way higher than that. Am I missing something?

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

You assume they will trade Jeffries? For what?

Even if they can trade Jeffies for salary relief, which seems unlikely to me, they would have to renounce David Lee's Bird Rights in order for the scenario you're talking about to work. I don't see them doing that.

And as Alby pointed out, the salary cap this year is 57mil-ish, and could be going backwards next year.

[sike]

Is this an appropriate place to say that I hate the Knicks and wish nothing but failure upon their franchise?

If not, then I'll add that I think there is NO way James will be a Knick.

[bobatundi]

Rumor has it right now they're talking to Houston about McGrady, and would unload Jeffries in such a deal (along with their 1st round pick Jordan Hill, a 2012 first-rounder, and giving Houston the right to swap 2011 first round picks). So they would gain $9.5MM in cap room for next year, at a cost of further mortgaging their future building blocks...with no guarantees that anyone will sign with them in the offseason.

In my amateur GM fantasy world, if I'm Donnie Nelson, I pick up the phone and offer the Knicks this trade:

Carroll
Thomas
Barea

for

Jeffries
Hill
Cash
future 1st

Knicks gain $5.2MM in 2010 cap room. Mavs pick up a prospect in Hill, a solid if overpaid defender in Jeffries, a future 1st...and, by getting rid of Carroll's contract, their total dollar spend is roughly the same, especially if the Knicks kick in some cash.

Also, Jeffries is a 2011 expiring, and Hill is a team option for 2011 and 2012. Both more valuable than Carroll's contract in making trades or S&Ts work.

[chumdawg]

Interesting. I've often thought that the Knicks could be a potential trade partner for us.

[bobatundi]

Another alternative: Carroll, Thomas, Barea + a minimum-salary pickup for Eddy Curry, plus cash, picks. Saves the Knicks even more cap room for next year, still saves the Mavs money long-term and nets them some assets.

I just want to figure out a way for the Mavs to fleece the Knicks.

I actually prefer the first trade I put out there, as Jeffries & Hill are both potentially useful bench players; Curry would be pure fodder for future trades.

[jthig32]

Here's a little more info on the Knicks situation. According to this guy's calculations they could possibly find a way to get something done with two max contracts if they trade Jeffries and buy out Curry. The Curry thing sounds suspicious to me though. My understanding has always been that buyouts do not affect the status of the salary cap. Maybe I've been wrong. I'll have to look that up. Still in this scenario it's singing two max guys and you fill out the rest of the roster with vet minimum guys, as you have zero cap room left over and no MLE or LLE. And your renounce Lee and Robinson. Still strikes me as very unlikely.

http://www.hoopdata.com/recent.aspx?aid=155

According to Yahoo! Sports, the Knicks are rumored to be making the following trade with the Houston Rockets in the coming days: Larry Hughes, Jared Jeffries, Jordan Hill, and a bunch of draft picks for Tracy McGrady, Brian Cook, and Joey Dorsey. Various reports have been thrown around about how far under the cap the Knicks will be, but here is the reality of the situation:

First and foremost, the Knicks have 17,782,904 in guaranteed salaries between Curry, Gallinari, Douglas, and Chandler. After that, a cap hold is put in place for each roster spot under 12, filling in some of the Knicks' projected cap space. Because a team must have 12 players under contract at all times in the regular season, the CBA makes sure teams account for the minimum contracts they must use to fill out their roster before they use their cap space. The minimum rookie contract for the 10-11 season is 490,180. The Knicks thus also have 3,921,440 in cap holds (8 roster spots) to add to their salary in the offseason, putting them at a total of 21,704,344.

Teams are currently projecting the salary cap next season to be approximately 53,000,000, so under that projection, the Knicks would have 31,295,656 in cap space available. To free up a little more cap space, the Knicks can opt to buyout Eddy Curry's 11,276,863 contract. Because the minimum salary for a 10-year player is 1,399,507, Curry and his agent should agree to a buyout saving the Knicks that amount, a deal that is in both of their best interests and will not lose Curry any money, assuming he finds someone to sign him to a minimum deal (and the league pays a good portion of the minimum deals for veterans – a team will actually only have to flesh out 788,872 for Curry, with the league covering the rest).

Assuming the Knicks and Curry agree to the buyout as stated above, that would net the Knicks cap savings of 909,327, because they'd have to add yet another cap hold to account for Curry no longer being there. This would put the Knicks up to 32,204,983 in cap space.

With the cap for 2010 projected at approximately 53 million, the max contract for a player entering his 7th year in the league (Lebron, Bosh, Wade) would be 30% of the cap or 15,900,000. Seeing how 15,900,000 * 2 is 31,800,000, the Knicks would have enough space to sign two of those players to maximum deals, and they'd actually have a bit left over, as you'd remove two of the cap holds (for the players you just signed), saving 980,360, plus they had a difference of 404,983 to begin with, leaving them with 1,385,343 in additional space. Combine this with another of the cap holds and that leaves the Knicks with 1,875,523 to sign a third free agent to a deal.

In full, under this projection, the Knicks would have two max contract players, Gallinari, Douglas, Chandler, a free agent with a deal starting at 1,875,523, and then six minimum contract players to round things out. That is all they would be able to add. There is no MLE, there are no Bird Rights for David Lee and Nate Robinson, there is nothing else. In order to use your cap space, you must renounce all your exceptions, including the MLE and any player Bird Rights you have.

Some random notes: Amare's contract (8th year player) would begin at the same price as Bosh, Lebron, or Wade, so you can throw him in the mix without adjusting anything. Joe Johnson, on the other hand, entering his 10th year, would have a starting salary of 35% of the cap or 18,550,000 in a max deal, though it's unlikely anyone offers that, so you can probably swap him into your projections at the same price as the others. Rudy Gay, on the other hand, would have a max deal starting at 25% of the cap or 13,250,000, so if the Knicks can only grab one of the big five players and want to add Gay as their second star, they'd be able to save 2,650,000 in doing so, meaning they could then add a 4,525,523 free agent for their third acquisition.

All of these numbers are based on a cap set at 53million. If the cap were slightly higher, it'd give the Knicks a sliver more flexibility in terms of what they could add with their third free agent after signing the two maxes. As long as the cap stays above 51million, the Knicks should have enough to sign two max free agents to a deal, assuming they can get Eddy Curry to agree to a buyout saving the Knicks the difference of the minimum contract he'd receive on the open market. Without Curry's buyout, things get a little murkier, but the Knicks should regardless be close enough to get it done somehow.

An interesting angle to watch in all this is what happens if Amare goes to Cleveland, Amare and Lebron both re-sign there after winning a championship, the Heat miss the playoffs, and the Raptors get knocked out in the first round. I don't think you'd find anyone around who would think that Bosh or Wade alone could build a team strong enough to knock off those Cavs (or even the Lakers or other teams), so it may become a necessity for Bosh and Wade to team up if they want to have a legitimate shot at winning a title in the near future.

As things stack up right now, the only two teams capable of offering max deals to both Bosh and Wade would be the Knicks and Heat (though Chicago and New Jersey are capable of maneuvering to that point with extremely aggressive moves in the next few days). Regardless, comparing the Knicks' situation to the Heat's situation, the Knicks will have a core of Gallinari, Chandler, and Douglas, while the Heat will have a core of Beasley, Cook, and Chalmers, though the Heat have a little more cap space and a first round pick to add to the mix. Still, with the allure of New York City and Gallinari being the best player of those named, it definitely makes a strong case for Bosh and Wade choosing New York over Miami. It's a big risk for the Knicks to take, but unlike those taken by Isiah Thomas, there actually is upside to this one.

[Hitman]

This trade will allow the New York Knicks to offer both LeBron James and Dwyane Wade maximum contracts on July 1.

I am sure the red carpet will be laid out and a huge presentation will be made. (Think of how the Suns went after Steve Nash back in 2005, with Amare, Kerr, etc. Taken to the umteenth level.)

They will probably have the owners and Walt Frazier and Spike Lee and David Letterman and Jon Stewart and A Rod and Jeter and Donald Trump there (the 2 meetings have simultaneous video chat with each other).... and Frank Sinatra and Jay Z will be performing a duet in the background

while they outline how the 2 of them together on the world's biggest stage can be the biggest thing in history.

Ain't there a chance they bite?

[jthig32]

Of course there's a chance. They have as good a chance as anyone. I just don't think they have an advantage over other teams.

And are they really going to be willing to absolutely suck for at least one year? Because make no mistake, a team with Lebron, Wade, Gallinari, Chander, Douglas and minimum salary players will suck.

[Dirkenstien]

Yeah, there's definitely a chance they might bite, but like I stated earlier, the more teams with sufficient cap space to sign a Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. the better it is for the Dallas Mavericks' chances of landing a Lebron, Wade, Bosh etc.

[Hitman]

Really? I don't think so. LeBron and Wade and Gallinari and Chandler and Douglas...that team would be pretty good. Vets would be chomping to get a piece of that action.

No way in hell that team sucks.

[bobatundi]

Yep--they'll suck badly for year 1, then have to use their MLE to lure the top available MLE-level FA every offseason after that. They won't have any draft picks left, and they won't really have any tradeable assets that can bring anything in return, unless they're willing to part with one of their two Sammy Superstars. Those two guys will both average 40 points a game...but the team as a whole will only average 90.

Obviously, if they only way to get LeBron there is to promise to partner him with D-Wade, that's what the Knicks will try to do--but a smarter move for the Knicks would probably be to try to get one top-tier FA, re-sign Lee, and use the remaining $10MM or so in cap room they'll have to add 2 more MLE-level guys. And preserve draft picks where possible. But--when is the last time the Knicks made a smart move (firing Isiah doesn't count).

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Really? I don't think so. LeBron and Wade and Gallinari and Chandler and Douglas...that team would be pretty good. Vets would be chomping to get a piece of that action.

No way in hell that team sucks.

I'm not even convinced they'd be a great fit playing together. Obviously they'd still be competitive on the talent level alone, but they both like to have the ball in their hands and both guys have huge egos.

[bobatundi]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Really? I don't think so. LeBron and Wade and Gallinari and Chandler and Douglas...that team would be pretty good. Vets would be chomping to get a piece of that action.

No way in hell that team sucks.

Douglas is a 6'1" SG, Chandler is horribly overrated, and Gallo, while I love his shooting stroke, has zero inside game, plays zero defense, and chucks up a LOT of shots to get his 14 ppg (shots which will go away if Wade & LeBron join the squad).

Not to mention, that's basically a starting lineup of 2 SGs and 3 SFs. This ain't Duke, this is the NBA.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Because make no mistake, a team with Lebron, Wade, Gallinari, Chander, Douglas and minimum salary players will suck.

Serious? I think you can stop at "Lebron, Wade" and already call them contenders.

[Hitman]

Right, I hear you, but worst case scenario, they sign someone like Drew Gooden for the vets minimum. Or Big Z. Or Damp. There will be be people available and those that are available are going to want to play in NYC w/ LBJ & DWade.

And FYI- Gallinari takes less than 11 shots per game.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Right, I hear you, but worst case scenario, they sign someone like Drew Gooden for the vets minimum. Or Big Z. Or Damp. There will be be people available and those that are available are going to want to play in NYC w/ LBJ & DWade.

And FYI- Gallinari takes less than 11 shots per game.

You are seriously over estimating the kind of players they would get for the minimum, imo.

[bobatundi]

Have to wonder, if the Knicks play their cards right, they could actually be quite dangerous this offseason. Imagine this scenario: LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Johnson, Stoudemire, Boozer all end up elsewhere. Now, if Isiah were still running the team, he'd just go throw max money at Ray Allen & Tracy McGrady or something stupid like that; but a sharp GM here might see that, with the kind of cap room they'll have, they can be major trade players--because they'll be able to absorb other teams' contracts without sending as much money back. They could easily turn that into young talent & draft picks, right?

Imagine calling up the Wizards GM right now and saying, "hey, I'll take Arenas off your hands, if you send me Blatche, Young, $3MM cash, and your 2010 and 2012 first round picks. Oh, and you're taking back Eddy Curry." You don't think the Wizards might bite? Sure, they'll quickly find themselves back in Cap Hell...but if they get there the right way, it might work out.

Isiah was stupid because he'd take on somebody's $20MM a year deal and would actually SEND OUT draft picks & young talent; in today's NBA economic landscape, the Knicks could easily stockpile a ton of young talent & draft picks by taking back a few bad deals.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by bobatundi

Yep--they'll suck badly for year 1, then have to use their MLE to lure the top available MLE-level FA every offseason after that. They won't have any draft picks left, and they won't really have any tradeable assets that can bring anything in return, unless they're willing to part with one of their two Sammy Superstars. Those two guys will both average 40 points a game...but the team as a whole will only average 90.

Obviously, if they only way to get LeBron there is to promise to partner him with D-Wade, that's what the Knicks will try to do--but a smarter move for the Knicks would probably be to try to get one top-tier FA, re-sign Lee, and use the remaining $10MM or so in cap room they'll have to add 2 more MLE-level guys. And preserve draft picks where possible. But--when is the last time the Knicks made a smart move (firing Isiah doesn't count).

And don't forget what effects the new CBA could have. There might not even be a MLE in the new CBA.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by bobatundi

Have to wonder, if the Knicks play their cards right, they could actually be quite dangerous this offseason. Imagine this scenario: LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Johnson, Stoudemire, Boozer all end up elsewhere. Now, if Isiah were still running the team, he'd just go throw max money at Ray Allen & Tracy McGrady or something stupid like that; but a sharp GM here might see that, with the kind of cap room they'll have, they can be major trade players--because they'll be able to absorb other teams' contracts without sending as much money back. They could easily turn that into young talent & draft picks, right?

Imagine calling up the Wizards GM right now and saying, "hey, I'll take Arenas off your hands, if you send me Blatche, Young, $3MM cash, and your 2010 and 2012 first round picks. Oh, and you're taking back Eddy Curry." You don't think the Wizards might bite? Sure, they'll quickly find themselves back in Cap Hell...but if they get there the right way, it might work out.

Isiah was stupid because he'd take on somebody's $20MM a year deal and would actually SEND OUT draft picks & young talent; in today's NBA economic landscape, the Knicks could easily stockpile a ton of young talent & draft picks by taking back a few bad deals.

This is essentially what Seattle/Oklahoma did, although they didn't take on contracts like Arenas'. Heck they got two first round picks for taking Kurt Thomas from Phoenix.

[bobatundi]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is essentially what Seattle/Oklahoma did, although they didn't take on contracts like Arenas'. Heck they got two first round picks for taking Kurt Thomas from Phoenix.

Right. And they're at 30-21 with the 28th-highest payroll in the league. Imagine what they could do if they were willing to spend what the Knicks do.

[alby]

Lebron James being in his prime, can join any team in the NBA and that team would win a minimum of 50 games.

[bobatundi]

Can't say the same of D-Wade, Bosh, etc.

Which, in my mind, is even more argument for the Knicks going after a 3-4 man supporting cast if they can convince LeBron to join, rather than a second Sammy Superstar.