*Offical* Our defense sucks thread - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dude1394 · 02-16-2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottawasucks

Every criticism that was thrown the Mavs way this year by kneejerking Barea or Chandler nuthuggers (save for Odom and Beaubois) have been proven to carry the same weight as hard excrement.

Chandler Nuthugger here. I am not convinced our defense is as good as last year. I think we have a real weakness on the perimeter, especially with three point defense. We do pack the lane quite a bit and Marion has become unbelievable.

I also still see a lot of penetration on pick and rolls. I also think this season is so screwed up that everyone's efficiency is way down.

Once the dirkster gets healthy ill see if we can come back in some games.

LonghornDub · 02-16-2012, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Chandler Nuthugger here. I am not convinced our defense is as good as last year. I think we have a real weakness on the perimeter, especially with three point defense. We do pack the lane quite a bit and Marion has become unbelievable.

I also still see a lot of penetration on pick and rolls. I also think this season is so screwed up that everyone's efficiency is way down.

Here's the problem I see with the "our defense isn't as good as last year." Nobody who thinks that way is going to have any reason to admit otherwise unless the Mavs win another championship this year. That's a pretty steep barrier and a bit too results-oriented. The defense could be better and the Mavs still not win a title. Hell, the offense and defense could be a lot better (I'm not saying this is the case) and the Mavs still not win a title. That's sports.

Statistically, the defense is markedly better. That's not up for debate. Now, if it tanks late in the season or in the postseason, the comparison should fairly die, but if the defense performs very well and the Mavs nevertheless go out, say, in the second round, I think you'd see a lot of people eschewing the stats and claiming that the defense couldn't possibly have been better this year. "Last year's defense won a championship, but this year's didn't, therefore last year's is better." That's a very problematic analysis.

G-Man · 02-16-2012, 11:29 AM

It is fun to see all the posters declaring the defense incompetent after just 1 or 2 games. With both Dirk and Odom finally hitting their strides, we still don't know how good this team can be. One great thing about RC. He knows that the time for the team to peak is not now, but in April. I look for him to have Wright playing at a high level by then, making out bench even stronger. Roddy might even mature into a JJB type change of pace guy.
Kudos to the MBT for putting such a team together purely on one year contracts. I would not believe it until I saw it with my own eyes.

mavs777 · 02-16-2012, 01:23 PM

4rth in defensive effeciency so far, last year we were 7th.
But only 17th in offensive effeciency, last year we were 8th.

dude1394 · 02-16-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Here's the problem I see with the "our defense isn't as good as last year." Nobody who thinks that way is going to have any reason to admit otherwise unless the Mavs win another championship this year. That's a pretty steep barrier and a bit too results-oriented. The defense could be better and the Mavs still not win a title. Hell, the offense and defense could be a lot better (I'm not saying this is the case) and the Mavs still not win a title. That's sports.

Statistically, the defense is markedly better. That's not up for debate. Now, if it tanks late in the season or in the postseason, the comparison should fairly die, but if the defense performs very well and the Mavs nevertheless go out, say, in the second round, I think you'd see a lot of people eschewing the stats and claiming that the defense couldn't possibly have been better this year. "Last year's defense won a championship, but this year's didn't, therefore last year's is better." That's a very problematic analysis.

No we don't have to win the ring for me to change my mind. I do want to see some comebacks where we play shutdown d against a full roster that isn't playing with dead legs. I may not get that until the playoffs but there should be enough for my flawed eye test to pass. I want to see better pnr coverage.

The defense being markedly better doesn't compute for me right now. Why would it be so, we,certainly do not have significantly better defenders ( I guess except jjb ). I know for a,fact that scoring is down across the league by 4-5 ppg. I don't think teams are playing better d.

LonghornDub · 02-16-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

The defense being markedly better doesn't compute for me right now. Why would it be so, we,certainly do not have significantly better defenders ( I guess except jjb ). I know for a,fact that scoring is down across the league by 4-5 ppg. I don't think teams are playing better d.

Whether scoring is down across the league has nothing to do with the Mavs' improvement in relative defense rankings.

And to answer "why would it be so," you alluded to the answer yourself. Your eye test (and mine, and anyone's) doesn't always match up with objective reality. So far, the defense has been better. I don't know if it will continue, but we can all hope.

jthig32 · 02-16-2012, 03:54 PM

It's not like there's no logical basis for our defense to be improved. We replaced JJ's 20 minutes with West, and Peja/Cardinal's ~15 minutes with Odom/Carter. That's a massive upgrade in defensive talent and overall athleticism.

BGMaverick9 · 02-16-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's not like there's no logical basis for our defense to be improved. We replaced JJ's 20 minutes with West, and Peja/Cardinal's ~15 minutes with Odom/Carter. That's a massive upgrade in defensive talent and overall athleticism.

To add on it, Haywood has really done a solid job being an anchor for the defense. You've changed your "sad" Haywood from last year into a two-headed monster of Ian and Wright.

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Here's the problem I see with the "our defense isn't as good as last year." Nobody who thinks that way is going to have any reason to admit otherwise unless the Mavs win another championship this year. That's a pretty steep barrier and a bit too results-oriented. The defense could be better and the Mavs still not win a title. Hell, the offense and defense could be a lot better (I'm not saying this is the case) and the Mavs still not win a title. That's sports.

Statistically, the defense is markedly better. That's not up for debate. Now, if it tanks late in the season or in the postseason, the comparison should fairly die, but if the defense performs very well and the Mavs nevertheless go out, say, in the second round, I think you'd see a lot of people eschewing the stats and claiming that the defense couldn't possibly have been better this year. "Last year's defense won a championship, but this year's didn't, therefore last year's is better." That's a very problematic analysis.

+1. Too much Barkley rhetoric.

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's not like there's no logical basis for our defense to be improved. We replaced JJ's 20 minutes with West, and Peja/Cardinal's ~15 minutes with Odom/Carter. That's a massive upgrade in defensive talent and overall athleticism.

This. How could the perimeter defense possibly be worse when it has upgraded? And while Wood & Tyson are different types of players, Wood has actually been better defensively than Tyson overall (career high 97 dtRG, vs. Ty's 102 last year).

dude1394 · 02-16-2012, 05:16 PM

I definitely have to give you Peja/jjb. But I have to subtract dsteve/ chandler.

Jet hasn't been very plugged in defensively IMO, nor the dirkster...but the stats say otherwise. Hmmmm..

I have always liked Haywood against big centers but he is still really slow and i want to see him against some good pnr teams with more dynamic scorers. Also more teams when the 3pt shot is forcing us to extend.

Wright is a good switch who gets up quickly...but he's really undersized...

I guess what I really want to see is us playing in the next few months as teams begin to get their act together.

I do like the way the team is scrambling around and I like delonte a bunch, so the stats may be more correct than my eyes.

Bynum4MVP · 02-16-2012, 05:17 PM

In my opinion, the Mavs defense is ridiculously good.

Haywood, Odom, Wright is an upgrade over Chandler/Haywood.

The Mavs do miss Butler and Stevenson on the perimeter but they also dropped the sieve name Peja and replaced him with an excellent defender in Odom.

VC isn't a consistent defender. But when he wants to be, he's a much better defender than Stevenson. In a close game, I'd take VC defense over Stevenson.

Barea had sometimes great offense but teams looked to exploit his size at times on defense.

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I definitely have to give you Peja/jjb. But I have to subtract dsteve/ chandler.

Jet hasn't been very plugged in defensively IMO, nor the dirkster...but the sets say otherwise. Hmmmm..

I have always liked Haywood against big centers but he is still really slow and i want to see him against some good pnr teams with more dynamic scoreres. Also more teams when the 3pt shot is forcing us to extend.

Wright is a good switch who gets up quickly...but he's really undersized...

I guess what I really want to see is us playing in the next few months as teams begin to get their act together.

I do like the way the team is scrambling around and I like delonte a bunch, soothe stats may be more correct than my eyes.

Dirk and Jet have been very good on defense this year. Especially Dirk. He's posting the 2nd best DRtg of his career at 99. Jet is posting a career best DRtg of 102. I'm just not sure what you're seeing.

Wright isn't huge, but it's not like there's many centers that could take advantage of him...I mean the dude is still 6'10. For bigger centers just don't play him against them.

dude1394 · 02-16-2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

In my opinion, the Mavs defense is ridiculously good.

Haywood, Odom, Wright is an upgrade over Chandler/Haywood.

The Mavs do miss Butler and Stevenson on the perimeter but they also dropped the sieve name Peja and replaced him with an excellent defender in Odom.

VC isn't a consistent defender. But when he wants to be, he's a much better defender than Stevenson. In a close game, I'd take VC defense over Stevenson.

Barea had sometimes great offense but teams looked to exploit his size at times on defense.

I wouldn't take Vince's defense over dsteves...but his two-way play makes him a very significant upgrade....and he is one huuuuuuuunnnnnnngry dude.

Bynum4MVP · 02-16-2012, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I wouldn't take Vince's defense over dsteves...but his two-way play makes him a very significant upgrade....and he is one huuuuuuuunnnnnnngry dude.

I agree that Stevenson is a much more consistent defender. Most of the time he's better on defense than VC.

But in a Finals game with a minute left in the fourth, I'd (personally) take VC on defense over Stevenson.

And as you said, offense+defense, it's pretty much VC.

nowhereman · 02-16-2012, 05:35 PM

Some thoughts and observations

I wanted to identify what I believe are the principal reasons for our improved defensive efficiency:

teams are making about 3% fewer jumpshots against us this year
teams are attempting more jumpshots against us than last year (up 1% from last year)
teams are shooting 2% less from "close" range
teams are attempting 1% fewer of these shots)
teams are scoring later in the shot clock (better defensive transition)
we're blocking more shots
we're creating more turnovers

There's no good way I can think of to quantify the interconnectedness of these elements (e.g. better defensive transition may mean greater opportunity to create turnovers, forcing teams deeper into the clock may result in more jumpshots, but it's hard to measure the effect). So it's hard to see statistically what has caused the improvement: maybe we're more active in passing lanes? closing out harder? clogging the paint more and other teams are missing jumpshots? maybe we're having more dead-ball turnovers, causing fewer transition opportunities.

To my eye, it looks as if the Mavs

are more actively clogging the paint and the passing lanes,
are trapping harder on the baseline,
are closing out more consistently and effectively on jumpshots (particularly Roddy, Delonte, Carter, and Marion), and
have fewer open court turnovers

There's some other variables out there as well - there have been some absolutely putrid defensive games, and similarly poor offensive games from the competition, that can create a lot of noise here. here have been 2835 possessions over 30 games. Take out our two best defensive performances (Sacramento win and the Clippers loss) and our two worst ones (home win against Utah, early loss against Denver) and our efficiency #s probably look pretty different (though I'd have to pass this research on to J0shi or someone else to perform).

Good to see we have an improved defensive efficiency ranking so far. It will be interesting to see where this team ends up. (As much as I loved the guy,) not having JJB has helped us out quite a bit. Marion, Odom, Carter, Roddy - these guys are giving us a lot of length and good close-outs that are really lifting this team.

Dude did identify one evident problem - pick & roll defense. We're either allowing way too much penetration on 1-5 pick & rolls, as guys are finding it easier to turn a corner on our bigs. Dallas is allowing the fewest PPP for a pick and roll ball-handler, but that's because of solid initial defensive rotations. This hasn't bitten us in the ass nearly as much as it should (although it has lost us a couple of games) because of good close-out abilities by our 2-3-4 guys. But our 5 guys have been very slow recovering back to their man (the mavs are 24th in points scored by the roll-man), and with some more clever offensive spacing, this could be a real defensive vulnerability.

dude1394 · 02-16-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Dirk and Jet have been very good on defense this year. Especially Dirk. He's posting the 2nd best DRtg of his career at 99. Jet is posting a career best DRtg of 102. I'm just not sure what you're seeing.

Wright isn't huge, but it's not like there's many centers that could take advantage of him...I mean the dude is still 6'10. For bigger centers just don't play him against them.

But in a close game hack-a-wood is going to happen. Wright is a power forward with a centers game. He's pretty small. Aldridge for example beat him like a drum.

With respect to dirk I'm not seeing it until lately. He has been really slow of foot with no lift. Jet hasn't been very good for about five games now. His leg and fatigue probably has something to do with it.

dude1394 · 02-16-2012, 09:01 PM

Well shut my moff...

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...nsive-category

Mavs reach No. 1 in key defensive*category
February, 16, 2012
FEB 16
12:08
PM CT
EmailPrintComments
1
By Jeff Caplan
DALLAS -- After the Dallas Mavericks held the league's highest-scoring team to 20 points below its season average and to 35.7 percent shooting, Denver Nuggets coach George Karl couldn't help but state the obvious.

"Dallas has turned into an incredibly good defensive team," Karl said after Wednesday night's 102-84 Mavs win. "I think we’re a pretty good offensive team and we couldn’t find many things."

Karl's team was also playing extremely shorthanded with starters Danilo Gallinari, Nene and Timofey Mozgov all injured. Still, Shawn Marion and company limited explosive point guard Ty Lawson to a single field goal and three points and two assists.

The rest of the league is realizing that Dallas is one of the tougher defenses in the league to get good looks against and score against. In fact, they just might be the toughest.

The team that looked as disorganized defensively as any in the first two games now shares the top spot of the NBA rankings in field-goal defense. The Mavs and Los Angeles Lakers are both holding opponents to 41.7 percent shooting. That's better than the Boston Celtics (41.8), the Miami Heat (42.5), the Chicago Bulls (42.7) and the Philadelphia 76ers (42.1), Friday's hard-nosed opponent.

Dallas also continues to move up the rankings in points allowed, giving up 91.3, tied for fifth with the Orlando Magic. Only Boston (87.1), Philadelphia (87.3), Chicago (88.0) and the Los Angeles Lakers (90.5) give up fewer points on average.

During this season-high-tying five-game win streak, the Mavs have allowed 92.4 points and 40.4 percent shooting. At the other end, Dallas has averaged 100.8 points, a significant uptick for a team that's been middle of the pack at around 94 or 95 points a game.

"Right now our efficiency on offense really helps our defense," Mavs coach Rick Carlisle said after the Mavs shot 46.2 percent against Denver with 28 assists on 37 field goals. "It's going to be even more pronounced when we get on the road. It's important that we're tight in all areas. Philadelphia is going to be a different kind of team than [Denver] -- same kind of quickness, but a little different style."

jjbarea · 02-19-2012, 12:33 PM

I don't always win a championship, but when I do, I get lazy.
-Dirk Nowitzki.

CadBane · 02-19-2012, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjbarea

I don't always win a championship, but when I do, I get lazy.
-Dirk Nowitzki.

This guy is the weirdest troll ever.

dude1394 · 02-19-2012, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjbarea

I don't always win a championship, but when I do, I get lazy.
-Dirk Nowitzki.

Funny... I'll take away a red box.

Holy Crap... Banned for that! Post nazis.

CadBane · 02-19-2012, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Funny... I'll take away a red box.

Seriously?

dude1394 · 02-19-2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Seriously?

Yea... I thought it was funny. Sorta true also. Anyone would get pretty lazy after a decade long quest for his ultimate goal. It's not like he was playing for Phil jack zen and had shaq or David Robinson helping him out. It's been all on him for a decade. Playing first with nutty donn Nelson and then Avery. Pretty tough long slog.

CadBane · 02-19-2012, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yea... I thought it was funny. Sorta true also. Anyone would get pretty lazy after a decade long quest for his ultimate goal. It's not like he was playing for Phil jack zen and had shaq or David Robinson helping him out. It's been all on him for a decade. Playing first with nutty donn Nelson and then Avery. Pretty tough long slog.

How the hell was Dirk "lazy"? Months after winning a ring he played for his f'ing country. After overcoming an injury, he's been fantastic. The dude is a troll who has been banned, btw.

dude1394 · 02-19-2012, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

How the hell was Dirk "lazy"? Months after winning a ring he played for his f'ing country. After overcoming an injury, he's been fantastic. The dude is a troll who has been banned, btw.

Crap cad even holger said dirk was out of shape after the euros. Ive never heard him say anything like that. It was pretty obvious to me that the dirkster partied like he had won the world championship.

The nba is to blame for this cluster of a season, I honestly don't blame anyone for not coming in ready. The season should have started at least two weeks later and only been about 50 games.

I'm still shocked that someone got banned for a single post...pretty trigger happy IMO.

CadBane · 02-19-2012, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Crap cad even holger said dirk was out of shape after the euros. Ive never heard him say anything like that. It was pretty obvious to me that the dirkster partied like he had won the world championship.

The nba is to blame for this cluster of a season, I honestly don't blame anyone for not coming in ready. The season should have started at least two weeks later and only been about 50 games.

I'm still shocked that someone got banned for a single post...pretty trigger happy IMO.

He was a repeat user, I think. He has trolled the forum under several accounts.

dude1394 · 02-20-2012, 12:15 PM

We are starting to see power forward as center in ending games. Sure it's wright and he's called a center..but as many mentioned he could not handle Tyson. He jumps well and is a pretty good off ball defender of shots...but his rebounding and bulk is very suspect.

I am concerned that as the rest of the league gets its offensive act together the Mavs defense will come back to earth. Yesterday it was not so good...dantonis teams will do that to you. Need to see the defense stay solid. Wright ending games is concerning.

41mvp · 02-20-2012, 12:38 PM

Our defence is very good so far.Haywood has been doing his best.Marion is perfect so far.Dirk also play good D.
We don't need worry about our D.Our offence gmes sucks.

Rick should play more:
Kidd
Carter
Terry
Nowitzki
Wright

dude1394 · 02-20-2012, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41mvp

Our defence is very good so far.Haywood has been doing his best.Marion is perfect so far.Dirk also play good D.
We don't need worry about our D.Our offence gmes sucks.

Rick should play more:
Kidd
Carter
Terry
Nowitzki
Wright

Right..take out our best defender and the only one not named dirk that rebounds and posts up. Yea...genious.

redzwestisbest · 02-21-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bynum4MVP

Odom is a very good to elite defender. Just go back to the old Lakers game logs and you'll see it is very rare that a Power Forward abused the Lakers.

Even through his offensive struggles early in the season his defense was ok.

When you watch the games now, you'll see that the guy LO is primarily assigned to won't score much. When somebody scores on LO, it's usually a guy that LO is helping on like a point guard or Center. LO plays especially good defense on Blake Griffin and Kevin Love.

This made me chuckle. Odom a very good/elite defender?! Lamar gets to play over half his minutes against the other team's second unit since he basically got with the Lakers. And the last sentence is awesome..

Blake and Love had some poor games against the Lakers, but Odom played like 25 mpg in them and played half of his minutes without Love or Blake on the floor.