How Much Better Were the Champs than the 2011-2012 Mavs? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

j0Shi · 04-25-2012, 05:33 PM

Tyson and Peja are the difference. No way you can make a point for JJB, Caron or DeShawn.

Think the presence of a true shooter benefited JJB the most, so not having a Peja kind of guy hurts Roddy, West even more in comparison to Barea. Outside the center position the defensive potential certainly got an upgrade (Carter > Peja - Roddy & West >> JJB & D-Steve).

LonghornDub · 04-25-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Tyson and Peja are the difference. No way you can make a point for JJB, Caron or DeShawn.

I think you can probably make a point for a guy who scored 17 and 15 points in the last two Finals games and hit countless shots at pivotal moments throughout the playoffs. Seriously, go watch the playoffs again and take note of how many times JJB hit a shot at a turning point in the game. There are many.

Now, I think we've added a couple guards to this team who are more talented and bigger, but until those guys show me they can hit shots like that in tight moments, I'm certainly not ready to say you can't "make a point" that losing JJB is significant.

j0Shi · 04-25-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I think you can probably make a point for a guy who scored 17 and 15 points in the last two Finals games and hit countless shots at pivotal moments throughout the playoffs. Seriously, go watch the playoffs again and take note of how many times JJB hit a shot at a turning point in the game. There are many.

Now, I think we've added a couple guards to this team who are more talented and bigger, but until those guys show me they can hit shots like that in tight moments, I'm certainly not ready to say you can't "make a point" that losing JJB is significant.

That's apples and some other fruits on my eyes.

Based on the regular season Roddy & West surpassed JJB & DeShawn by a decent margin. Their playoff impact is incomparable because not existent yet. They have some big shoes to fill in that regard, that's for sure.

mav4ever · 04-25-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Chandler I get, but what did Barea bring that Roddy and Carter don't bring ten-times over?

lol, holy jeebus dude. did you watch the playoffs last year?

mav4ever · 04-25-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

I think you can probably make a point for a guy who scored 17 and 15 points in the last two Finals games and hit countless shots at pivotal moments throughout the playoffs. Seriously, go watch the playoffs again and take note of how many times JJB hit a shot at a turning point in the game. There are many.

what did he score in game one of the western finals? 24 or something like that? at one point in the game he hit a 3, then scored on 3 straight possesions with lightning fast penetrations, and had a steal in that stretch.

22 or 24 in the closeout game against the lakers to if i remember right.

edit: actually just pulled up his game one of the w.c.f., and the score was 95-89 dallas with okc on a run late in the game, and he hit a 3, then made three consecutive layups, chased by westbrook and durant and pulled the game out to 104-89 being the only player scoring during that stretch.

nowhereman · 04-25-2012, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Chandler I get, but what did Barea bring that Roddy and Carter don't bring ten-times over?

Replacing a fearless guy off the bench that can't tolerate not trying to win (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...sct=nba_t2_a15) with a guy that's been openly mocked by his team for being soft and another guy who's legacy is quitting on his team and failing in the clutch?

Hrmm.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 04-25-2012, 07:56 PM

I guess that guy sort of learned to "tolerate not to win" in Minnesota, when they were on the verge of being a playoff team and Rubio went down, and he was supposed to step up and replace him. Now they're eliminated from the playoffs.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 04-25-2012, 08:03 PM

Big game to determine who we face first round.

nowhereman · 04-25-2012, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

I guess that guy sort of learned to "tolerate not to win" in Minnesota, when they were on the verge of being a playoff team and Rubio went down, and he was supposed to step up and replace him. Now they're eliminated from the playoffs.

Yeah and remember how Dirk lost in round 1 against Golden State?

(one nonsense nonsequitur comment deserves another)

LonghornDub · 04-25-2012, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

That's apples and some other fruits on my eyes.

Based on the regular season Roddy & West surpassed JJB & DeShawn by a decent margin. Their playoff impact is incomparable because not existent yet. They have some big shoes to fill in that regard, that's for sure.

One guy has proven himself on the biggest stage. He is a proven commodity in those moments. That is a positive attribute that the other guys lack.

There's no misalignment in the comparison here. You're saying, based on the numbers, the new guys are clearly better. I disagree. Once they have a playoff run like JJB, then I can say they're better based on their superior RS numbers. Until then, their "nonexistent" playoff impact is exactly the reason it's so easy to make an argument for JJB.

And let's be clear: I'm not even saying JJB is conclusively better. I'd pick West in most instances. But to say you can't even make an argument for JJB....well, if that's the case, you're not trying very hard to make an argument.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 04-25-2012, 09:07 PM

Go Denver!

I think I'm gonna go find a stream of the end of this one.

LonghornDub · 04-25-2012, 09:19 PM

Why go Denver? So the Mavs can play the Thunder?

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 04-25-2012, 09:21 PM

Nuggets gonna win and we're gonna facing the Thunder.

nowhereman · 04-25-2012, 09:30 PM

Upset about the Denver win. Here's hoping Minnesota can take them down tomorrow and we can pull one out against ATL.

mav4ever · 04-25-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Why go Denver? So the Mavs can play the Thunder?

i personally would rather play just about anybody in the first round but the thunder.

Kidd Karma · 04-26-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Upset about the Denver win. Here's hoping Minnesota can take them down tomorrow and we can pull one out against ATL.

ATL's playing for home court. Darn, the Boston game is starting the same time, so ATL will not have an inkling of how Boston' is playing their game.

Minny has a couple days off, Barea went off on them for effort and some teammates already packing it in. Last home game of a good season for them, I think Minny has a great shot, with Denver on the 2nd of back to backs. It'll come down to us, I think Carlisle is going to play to win.

dude1394 · 04-26-2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mav4ever

i personally would rather play just about anybody in the first round but the thunder.

Not me. The Mavs have about the only guy who can hang With durant. They also are smart enough to keep Westbrook in front of them. After that... Not that much and we can use wright.

Lakers I don't like.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 04-26-2012, 01:47 PM

As a 6th or 7th seed it's not like either a 2nd or 3rd seed will be a cakewalk. But I feel we matchup better with OKC than the Lakers.

And guess who we'll face in round 2? More than likely the other team that we didnt face in round 1. So it really doesn't matter because it's championship or bust is it not? I would think so since we're the defending champs. It's all probably going to be a bust.

JET41 · 04-26-2012, 02:12 PM

I think last years Mavericks were better than this years Mavs, definitely.
Also Lamar Odom was no help so yeah, last years championship team all the way.

DavidDaMonkey · 04-26-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

And guess who we'll face in round 2? More than likely the other team that we didnt face in round 1. So it really doesn't matter because it's championship or bust is it not? I would think so since we're the defending champs. It's all probably going to be a bust.

I guess you can always hope that Bynum will do something stupid in the first round and miss some games in the second round? Or get injured? With Bynum all bets are off, and he's the only one I'm really worried about.

mav4ever · 04-26-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Not me. The Mavs have about the only guy who can hang With durant. They also are smart enough to keep Westbrook in front of them. After that... Not that much and we can use wright.

Lakers I don't like.

even with metta world peace out would you be more worried about the lakers? (probably not that much of a difference, but it has to count for something)

i dont like the thunder because of having dirk, kidd, marion, terry, and carter running with those guys night after night. i keep thinking about how golden state ran us out of the gym.

JHT · 04-27-2012, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Unfortunately i think that is where you're wrong, and why i think the whole premise of your otherwise excellent post, is a little questionable. I mean yeah, we finished last year's regular season badly, but! Last year's team started out the year with what, a 21-5 W/L record, with one of the hardest early schedule? We were spanking elite teams left and right, i believe we were either 15-0, or 15-1 against playoff teams at one point.

After then, injuries happened, and we started to play inconsistently. Then march came, and we had a string of 23 games, where we won 20 games, and we were leading (!) in all of the other 3, with 1 minute left in the game, and ended up losing them, i think at least 2 of them on buzzers. Just think about it, a couple 50/50 ball goes the other way, and we could have had a 23 games winning streak.

What i'm trying to say, especially in hindsight, that the writing was on the wall. That team had it in them. Without writing off this years's team (which i would never do) the 2011/2012 Mavs is yet to show us that kind of efficiency, and domination, that last year team showed, even before the playoffs.

This is accurate.

It's amazing the way others are trying to rewrite it.

dude1394 · 04-27-2012, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mav4ever

even with metta world peace out would you be more worried about the lakers? (probably not that much of a difference, but it has to count for something)

i dont like the thunder because of having dirk, kidd, marion, terry, and carter running with those guys night after night. i keep thinking about how golden state ran us out of the gym.

Yes. IMO goldent state didn't run us out of the gym. They defended us out of the gym in our sets and our littlest colonel not knowing how to coach.

PartywithDirk · 04-27-2012, 09:44 AM

We play defense now...unlike when we played GS. I don't think Thunder will have an easy time running against us, it is the playoffs afterall.

Murphy3 · 04-27-2012, 01:22 PM

I just don't see alot of favorable 2012 comparisions when looking at this year compared to last. I just don't see it. There's still the hope that Dirk is God and Kidd/JET is 2011 playoff good.. That Marion can be first 3/4's of the 2012 Marion... yada yada.. It's going to take a Herculean effort from just about the entire top end of the roster to get through the first round.

It's doable... but not probable.

LonghornDub · 04-27-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yes. IMO goldent state didn't run us out of the gym. They defended us out of the gym in our sets and our littlest colonel not knowing how to coach.

In fact, the Mavs would have been much more likely to beat GS if they had run with them and taken advantage of that porous defense. Like the Jazz did in the next round.

Instead, they did some awful "slow it down as much as possible" plan and couldn't score worth a damn.

cowboyuptx · 04-28-2012, 09:53 AM

It's really JJ they miss most... Even though he was somewhat of a liability defensively, JJ could jump up and go for 15 in a span of 8 minutes... Then he might play 20 minutes the next night and go for only 5 points... He was just an added bonus that helped carry us to some bonus wins... JJ's role was perfect for him and perfect for the team...

That said, last year's squad wasn't all that much better... Their chemistry was better... This year's team is different, and I think they approached this season completely different than last season... We need our whole team to win consistently, and we haven't played that much with the full arsenal... Some guys had injuries, but a lot of it was Carlisle giving the vets a lot of nights off... I think the Mavs approached this regular season as one long practice...

Carlisle is a great coach, and this team still has multiple Hall of Famers on it, so I don't think the disparity between this season and last season is quite as pronounced as it looks on the surface...

xrobx · 04-28-2012, 10:40 AM

JJ was good, but he was also a ball hog during all those stretches and he took a lot of ill advised shots during that magical run that luckily for him (and all of us) went in. I think we'll be fine. Delonte plays the same style and is better on defense.

G-Man · 04-29-2012, 08:40 PM

Even though they lost the 1st game in OKC, this years Mavs show they remember how to step it up with true playoff intensity. If they play this well every night, they might get out of the 1st round.

dude1394 · 04-29-2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

In fact, the Mavs would have been much more likely to beat GS if they had run with them and taken advantage of that porous defense. Like the Jazz did in the next round.

Instead, they did some awful "slow it down as much as possible" plan and couldn't score worth a damn.

Ab so freakin lutely.

dude1394 · 04-29-2012, 08:57 PM

Last years team center position and outside shooting was much better.

mav4ever · 04-29-2012, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Last years team center position and outside shooting was much better.

i havent really noticed the outside shooting part. probably so though, but the center position is definitly hurting them.

in my opinion last year they were the strongest at center in franchise history. i absolutely hated that they didnt resign chandler to a 4 or 5 year deal, but i guess he was thinking about the future of the franchise
(like signing a decent center to a 4 or 5 year deal, lol.)