Is Jason Kidd a top 50 Player in the NBA? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

StackAttack · 09-16-2008, 05:22 PM

Without really thinking about it, I'd say "Yes" right away. But I've been following Fanhouse's NBA Top 50 feature, and it doesn't look like Kidd's going to make the cut. Granted, only Nos. 50-22 have been revealed, but I doubt anyone, even here, is going to rank Kidd above the likes of Melo.

The list to date:

22. Carmelo Anthony, Denver
23. Kevin Martin, Sacramento
24. Andrew Bynum, L.A. Lakers
25. Tony Parker, San Antonio

26. Caron Butler, Washington
27. David West, New Orleans
28. Allen Iverson, Denver
29. Tracy McGrady, Houston
30. Baron Davis, L.A. Clippers

31. Brandon Roy, Portland
32. Josh Smith, Atlanta
33. Jose Calderon, Toronto
34. Rasheed Wallace, Detroit
35. Shawn Marion, Miami

36. Antawn Jamison, Washington
37. Monta Ellis, Golden State
38. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City
39. Rudy Gay, Memphis
40. Tyson Chandler, New Orleans

41. Corey Maggette, Golden State
42. Shane Battier, Houston
43. Ron Artest, Houston
44. Danny Granger, Indiana
45. T.J. Ford, Indiana

46. Michael Redd, Milwaukee
47. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte
48. Josh Howard, Dallas
49. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia
50. Andris Biedrins, Golden State

Of course I'm not saying that just because Fanhouse said so it makes it true, but looking at that list...the only person I'd really even think about putting Kidd ahead of is Shane Battier.

So, what do you think? Is Jason Kidd still a top 50 player in this league? Is he even a top tier point guard? Because if you agree with that list, TJ Ford, Monta Ellis, Jose Calderon, Brandon Roy, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, and I'm assuming Steve Nash are all players who play the point guard position at least some of the time that are better than Kidd.

LSMF · 09-16-2008, 05:36 PM

This list has to be wrong...

DubOverdose · 09-16-2008, 05:39 PM

#50......maybe

Tokey41 · 09-16-2008, 07:01 PM

Age, potential, contract... I can see why some of these guys rank above Kidd if all variables are considered. If your looking at pure talent level then yes Kidd is a top 50 player (you would be an idiot not to take him over say TJ Ford).

Not that I agree with the rankings anyways. Morons.

dirno2000 · 09-17-2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Age, potential, contract... I can see why some of these guys rank above Kidd if all variables are considered. If your looking at pure talent level then yes Kidd is a top 50 player (you would be an idiot not to take him over say TJ Ford).

Not that I agree with the rankings anyways. Morons.

TJ Ford quietly had a damn good season behind Calderon. He's going to surprise some people this year.

StackAttack · 09-16-2008, 08:30 PM

Yeah, Ford's definitely on that list based almost entirely on age and potential.

Rick41 · 09-16-2008, 09:38 PM

Watch Dirk end up being #23 with Pau, Yao and Turkoglue ahead of him.

grndmstr_c · 09-16-2008, 09:45 PM

Those rankings are horrible. And that has nothing to do with Kidd's presence/nonpresence on the list.

As to the thread title, I'm sure you could make an argument that he's top 50, and I'm sure you could make an argument he's not. Honestly, though, when you get that far down I think it's very hard to differentiate. The effectiveness of guys in the Top-50 discussion (as opposed to those in the Top-10 discussion, for example) tends to be more dynamic based on how well they fit with teammates/systems. There's a short list of players (Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, etc.) who are talented enough (and close enough to their prime) to shine regardless of circumstance.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 09-16-2008, 09:48 PM

I think he'll still be on the list, coming up very soon.

And yes I would put him above 'Melo. But not Baron Davis or Tony Parker. But besides those two there's not many players on that list so far that have proven anything. Kidd lead his team to back to back Finals. (ok Allen Iverson has proven himself in the past but I think Kidd's better than A.I.)

Darth Ape · 09-16-2008, 10:02 PM

I know jose calderon is good... but putting him this high is turning my mind into soup

AxdemxO · 09-16-2008, 10:17 PM

Yes hes top 50..where exactly I cant say. But as many have pointed out this list isnt exactly all that good and many player can easily be moved around or in/out

MaVs 41 BaLler · 09-16-2008, 10:32 PM

josh howard at 48...pfft

you put danny granger ahead of him??

who the hell is danny granger?

Rick41 · 09-16-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

josh howard at 48...pfft

you put danny granger ahead of him??

who the hell is danny granger?

actually a pretty decent "baller"

Tokey41 · 09-16-2008, 10:37 PM

You probably haven't heard of him, he's the guy who doesn't get high and mouth off during the offseason. He's about as good as Howard really.

LonghornDub · 09-16-2008, 10:46 PM

It doesn't matter much to me whether Kidd is top 50, as long as he does what he needs to for the team.

horse900703 · 09-17-2008, 09:08 AM

I wonder where is dirk?

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 09:13 AM

I think Jason Terry is a top 50 Nba Player, if Biedrins and T.J.ford made this list then so should Jason Terry.

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

I think Jason Terry is a top 50 Nba Player, if Biedrins and T.J.ford made this list then so should Jason Terry.

Yeah, and Stackhouse too - he's better than LeBron!

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, and Stackhouse too - he's better than LeBron!

I'm guessing you disagree with me that Jet should be on this list. Lets compare Jet to T.J Ford.

Jet's career - 15ppg, 5 apg. Jet has never missed more than 4 games in a season. T.J.ford's Career- 11ppg, 6 assists. T.J.Ford played only 51 games last season.

Jet Career- 15ppg, 5 apg
Andris Biedrins Career- 7pts, 7 rebs, 1 block.

Looking at the stats Jet's numbers are better than both T.J.Ford and Biedrins numbers but yet they made this list and he didn't (Unless they put him in the top 21 which I doubt). And Jet has more impact on games because of his consistent clutch shooting. I have proved my point that Jet should have made this list, now I'll be waiting for you Underdog to prove yours.

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

I'm guessing you disagree with me that Jet should be on this list. Lets compare Jet to T.J Ford.

Jet's career - 15ppg, 5 apg. Jet has never missed more than 4 games in a season. T.J.ford's Career- 11ppg, 6 assists. T.J.Ford played only 51 games last season.

Jet Career- 15ppg, 5 apg
Andris Biedrins Career- 7pts, 7 rebs, 1 block.

Looking at the stats Jet's numbers are better than both T.J.Ford and Biedrins numbers but yet they made this list and he didn't (Unless they put him in the top 21 which I doubt). And Jet has more impact on games because of his consistent clutch shooting. I have proved my point that Jet should have made this list, now I'll be waiting for you Underdog to prove yours.

This isn't a list of the top-50 CAREER players, it's a list of top-50 CURRENT players and JET certainly isn't one of them...

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

This isn't a list of the top-50 CAREER players, it's a list of top-50 CURRENT players and JET certainly isn't one of them...

And Andris Effin Biedrins and T.J ford are?

BGMaverick9 · 09-17-2008, 10:27 AM

Outside of the top 5, maybe 10...I don't know how you can honestly speculate their rankings, and be consistent across the board. A lot of things going into account, roles on the team, leadership, clutch, etc etc.

I don't care where Kidd is on that list. As long as he can still be Jason Kidd and he's a Maverick, that's good enough for me.

EricaLubarsky · 09-17-2008, 03:23 PM

Top 100 is only roughly top 25%

Is terry a star? no. Is he better than most guys that don't even have guaranteed contracts, or play more than 10mpg? Hell Yeah.

StackAttack · 09-17-2008, 06:26 PM

The only person on the list I really have a problem with is Shane Battier. I don't necessarily agree with the rest of the rankings, but I think a valid argument could be made in any player's favor for their position on that list. Shane Battier's probably the best role player in the league, but that's the problem. The King of the Scrubs. I mean, if you agree with that list, then Houston's Big Three doesn't include Ron Artest.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 06:32 PM

Like I said Kidd def. is, Jet could go wither way. But I just notice an interesting thin. J.R. Smith isnt on there?? I know most people dont think of him as top 50 and I dont necessarily either. But I am using to to prove a point. The guy is a better player then several people on there and soo this list is basically not valid..because its hard to rate that many players and once you do soo many of them can be moved around. So this thread become kinda usless...unless you arguing underdog who seems to think that JET just suks that bad all though hes been there for us year after year...

CanadianMavsFan · 09-17-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Without really thinking about it, I'd say "Yes" right away. But I've been following Fanhouse's NBA Top 50 feature, and it doesn't look like Kidd's going to make the cut. Granted, only Nos. 50-22 have been revealed, but I doubt anyone, even here, is going to rank Kidd above the likes of Melo.

The list to date:

22. Carmelo Anthony, Denver
23. Kevin Martin, Sacramento
24. Andrew Bynum, L.A. Lakers
25. Tony Parker, San Antonio

26. Caron Butler, Washington
27. David West, New Orleans
28. Allen Iverson, Denver
29. Tracy McGrady, Houston
30. Baron Davis, L.A. Clippers

31. Brandon Roy, Portland
32. Josh Smith, Atlanta
33. Jose Calderon, Toronto
34. Rasheed Wallace, Detroit
35. Shawn Marion, Miami

36. Antawn Jamison, Washington
37. Monta Ellis, Golden State
38. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City
39. Rudy Gay, Memphis
40. Tyson Chandler, New Orleans

41. Corey Maggette, Golden State
42. Shane Battier, Houston
43. Ron Artest, Houston
44. Danny Granger, Indiana
45. T.J. Ford, Indiana

46. Michael Redd, Milwaukee
47. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte
48. Josh Howard, Dallas
49. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia
50. Andris Biedrins, Golden State

Of course I'm not saying that just because Fanhouse said so it makes it true, but looking at that list...the only person I'd really even think about putting Kidd ahead of is Shane Battier.

So, what do you think? Is Jason Kidd still a top 50 player in this league? Is he even a top tier point guard? Because if you agree with that list, TJ Ford, Monta Ellis, Jose Calderon, Brandon Roy, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, and I'm assuming Steve Nash are all players who play the point guard position at least some of the time that are better than Kidd.

This list is retarded. What has Andrew Bynum done to be ahead of guys like Tony Parker and Tracy Mcgrady? Battier > Josh Howard, Iguodala, and Ron Artest!?!?!? Jose Calderon in the top 30? I live in Toronto and am a Raptors fan, but damn that's way too high.

grndmstr_c · 09-17-2008, 07:35 PM

A couple things:

1) I don't think you can just take the best player off each team and assume that you have the top 30 right there. Take the Knicks, for example. There are days when I don't think there's a single guy on their roster that I'd take over Kidd, Josh, or JT. Just to back that up with some stats, knickerblogger's league leaders rankings for last year (based on PER), have Dirk, Kidd, Josh, and JET all in the top 56.

2) I think Mavs fans who are sleeping on JET are going to be pleasantly surprised this coming year. Carlisle's got a good history with catch and shoot guys (Rip and even more so Reggie) and I think a motion offense is going to suit JET's skillset much better than Avery's one-on-one drudgery. I'm expecting a good year from him.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

A couple things:

1) I don't think you can just take the best player off each team and assume that you have the top 30 right there. Take the Knicks, for example. There are days when I don't think there's a single guy on their roster that I'd take over Kidd, Josh, or JT. Just to back that up with some stats, knickerblogger's league leaders rankings for last year (based on PER), have Dirk, Kidd, Josh, and JET all in the top 56.

2) I think Mavs fans who are sleeping on JET are going to be pleasantly surprised this coming year. Carlisle's got a good history with catch and shoot guys (Rip and even more so Reggie) and I think a motion offense is going to suit JET's skillset much better than Avery's one-on-one drudgery. I'm expecting a good year from him.

good pints : )...Go JET...GO MAVS......F the haters and doubters

fluid.forty.one · 09-17-2008, 08:23 PM

Jet really isn't that great anymore.. I bet you could find 100 players in the league that you could at least make a good argument against JET with.

Oh and if we're talking about just this upcoming year, then I would def put Kidd on that list.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Jet really isn't that great anymore.. I bet you could find 100 players in the league that you could at least make a good argument against JET with.

Oh and if we're talking about just this upcoming year, then I would def put Kidd on that list.

What makes Jet not soo great. I am not saying hes top 50 in the NBA, but the guy gets his 15-20 pts and many nites more a game, gets his 5 assists a game, a few rebounds, a steal here and there....and most of all hes clutch and a good team mate.

fluid.forty.one · 09-17-2008, 09:17 PM

I'm saying he's not as good as he used to be... there were many times last season when I cringed when he took a shot. He had some pretty nasty slumps.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'm saying he's not as good as he used to be... there were many times last season when I cringed when he took a shot. He had some pretty nasty slumps.

Okk i can understand that...but everyone goes through that including Dirk..KOBE (playoffs) and other great shooters. I have always felt that people underestimate what Jet brings to this team. The last couple of years have been tuff..yes...but they have been tuff for all the players. I just think this year will be a frsh start with Kidd here and a new coach and I expect great things

fluid.forty.one · 09-17-2008, 09:40 PM

honestly I'm not sure how much I'm liking JETS fit on this team anymore. I don't really like him playing the 2 with Kidd on the court (who would guard the 2s, Kidd? I think most of the SGs in the league are too young and fast for Kidd) and I don't like him taking the PG spot when Kidd is resting.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

honestly I'm not sure how much I'm liking JETS fit on this team anymore. I don't really like him playing the 2 with Kidd on the court (who would guard the 2s, Kidd? I think most of the SGs in the league are too young and fast for Kidd) and I don't like him taking the PG spot when Kidd is resting.

While I agree that Jet could use some more size, i completely disagree with you thinking that he cant get the job done. I think he will be great alongside Kidd and we will see his hooting at its best. I think when it comes to guarding SG's Kidd mite be a step slower but mentally hes 5 steps ahead of all of them and that helps a lot and I think we will see one of the younger guys Wright/Green get some of that too. Now I think JET is the perfect bakup to Kidd. The guy can score which is not exactly Kidds strength and he will do fine in the limited time he sees at pg when it comes to running the team. But I guess well see whn the season starts : )

Tokey41 · 09-17-2008, 10:04 PM

Jet is now Stackhouse for this team (top 100 is ridiculous for an old, streaky, jumpshooting, two guard who is also undersized). But that said what does that make Stackhouse now? Well, he's an expiring... so trade bait at least. Gotta like that.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Jet is now Stackhouse for this team (top 100 is ridiculous for an old, streaky, jumpshooting, two guard who is also undersized). But that said what does that make Stackhouse now? Well, he's an expiring... so trade bait at least. Gotta like that.

Yee keep hating..well seee

Dtownsfinest · 09-17-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Jet is now Stackhouse for this team (top 100 is ridiculous for an old, streaky, jumpshooting, two guard who is also undersized). But that said what does that make Stackhouse now? Well, he's an expiring... so trade bait at least. Gotta like that.

When's the last time the Mavericks traded an expiring contract? I thought Cuban was done with that?

spreedom · 09-17-2008, 10:10 PM

Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Martin are better than Brandon Roy? Yeah right, pass the bong...

Would anyone here rather have either of those two players starting for us at the 2/3 spot instead of Roy? I definitely wouldn't. And where is Joe Johnson? Better be in that top 20, or I'm going to kill a man.

grndmstr_c · 09-17-2008, 11:00 PM

JET's a better fit now, since the Kidd trade, than he was before the Kidd trade. I honestly don't see how anyone can feel differently. Just to hit on the two most obvious things:

1) JET's a great catch-and-shoot guy. Before the trade, Dallas didn't have anyone who was particularly noteworthy at getting the ball to the open man. Now they've got one of the best.

2) JET's undersized. Before the trade, whenever Dallas wanted to play JET at the 2 they had to play very small in the backcourt, which made them unusually vulnerable to power players in the backcourt. Now, with Kidd, they can play JET at the 2 and not worry about having two guys on the court who are in danger of getting overpowered defensively. Having Kidd to pair with JET isn't exactly a bad thing in the rebounding game, either.

The concern about quick players is justified for the Mavs I think, but that's doesn't all fall on JET. The problem there is that the Mavs simply don't have ANY first-rate man-to-man defenders at the guard spots right now (though Kidd is still an excellent team defender).

And seriously, how many backup point guards are there in the NBA who you'd honestly rather have on the court than JET. Especially on this team as its currently constructed, where JET's your obvious number three scorer. Barbosa comes to mind, but that's about it.

fluid.forty.one · 09-17-2008, 11:06 PM

he might have been a worse fit before but that doesn't mean he's a good fit now. Idk it's just a shame JET isn't a little bigger. He isn't a point guard and he's too small to be a star SG.