D-Hare lighting it up again! - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

fluid.forty.one · 11-17-2008, 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

well Lebron is Lebron he is just one heck of a guy something Kidd was never and Harris will never be

wow

basketballgirl25 · 11-17-2008, 04:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, because Kidd did NOTHING to have people call him a Hall of Famer before he's even retired...

I hate your mother for being pro-life...

ok Kidd DID stuff before but now I totally forgot Nets sucked till he got ther I try to block out those bad day, but he isn't as good as he once was, not saying he isn't good still just not as good

fluid.forty.one · 11-17-2008, 04:16 PM

le sigh

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 08:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

(and your a blithering idiot if you think a 26-year-old Devin Harris is anywhere near as talented as a 36-year-old Jason Kidd...)

Call me a blathering idiot then, because at this point I in their careers I would take Devin 10 times out of 10, and I don't think there are many NBA teams would do otherwise.

Kidd was one of the greatest points ever, but he just can't get into the paint anymore. When you have a point guard who can't get into the paint, you're basically playing with a bucket on your foot. It's sorta like having a shooting guard who can't shoot, another problem we've had to deal with for years.

jthig32 · 11-17-2008, 08:33 PM

Once again, if the Mavs continue to struggle this season, the trade as a whole looks pretty bad (if New Jersey gets a high lotter pick next season is looks horrendous).

But Jason Kidd, right now, is still a good, solid step above Devin Harris on a basketball court. You can't always tell from the box score (Kidd's game has always been somewhat underrated statistically) but when you watch the games you see the effect he has on them.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 08:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

He's Jason Terry without a shot.

If you mean that he's a combo guard and not a pure point, that's one thing. But if you're comparing what they both actually contribute on the floor, then you couldn't be more wrong. Harris is constantly looking to attack the rim, and has the speed to do to it too. That alone makes him more valuable than Terry ever was.

I swear, to all of his detractors, it's like last season never happened. The guy was absolutely solid last year before his injury. He was a genuine NBA starting point guard. Was he Chris Paul or Deron Williams? No. But is Jason Kidd either? At this point in his career anyway? Hell no.

People can go on and on about "true point guards" and "quarterbacks" etc... But that doesn't change the fact that when we lost Devin, we lost an explosive if inconsistent player, and a real offensive threat.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Once again, if the Mavs continue to struggle this season, the trade as a whole looks pretty bad (if New Jersey gets a high lotter pick next season is looks horrendous).

But Jason Kidd, right now, is still a good, solid step above Devin Harris on a basketball court. You can't always tell from the box score (Kidd's game has always been somewhat underrated statistically) but when you watch the games you see the effect he has on them.

I just don't see it, man. When we're running a fast break, sure. But when we get into a half court game, it gets very very ugly. Kidd tries to set something up, but just can't get by his man. So what we usually end up with is the same thing we had under Avery; all the guys just pass the ball around the 3 point line until there's only a few seconds left and someone has to chuck up a bad shot.

To Kidd's credit, he can at least throw an entry pass, which for reasons beyond my understanding, the Dallas guards never seemed to know how to do against Miami or Golden State.

jthig32 · 11-17-2008, 08:50 PM

I think you overstate the problems in the half court. There's been several games where Kidd was an absolute asset in the half court, posting up and creating for others.

basketballgirl25 · 11-17-2008, 09:14 PM

The only problems Kidd has is one he isn't good at shooting and everyone see's that and two he can't guard quick guards, he couldn't even in his prime if anyone remembers the one finals

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 09:15 PM

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 09:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Tokey41

How foolish do the people who wanted Kidd here feel now? Or are they still hiding under the long shot hope that this team might actually turn it around and win us a ring?

I was given a lot of b.s trash talk from so many people when I was bashing this trade when it happened. I take solace in my vindication. Thank you Devin.

Umm yee great for Devin...but Kidd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Devin. The trade was still a good one and mann, watching Kidd out there is just soo much better then watching Harris..even when we lose.

GO MAVS

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 09:17 PM

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Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

The only problems Kidd has is one he isn't good at shooting and everyone see's that and two he can't guard quick guards, he couldn't even in his prime if anyone remembers the one finals

He's not a bad shooter when he sets his feet. The problem Kidd gives this team is that he isn't a scorer. He even misses bunnies in the paint. And with Damp out there its basically 3 on 5 out there. And I haven't been impressed with Kidd in the half court at all and that goes back to last season. He's at his best running the break. Something this team definately did need last season.

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 09:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If you mean that he's a combo guard and not a pure point, that's one thing. But if you're comparing what they both actually contribute on the floor, then you couldn't be more wrong. Harris is constantly looking to attack the rim, and has the speed to do to it too. That alone makes him more valuable than Terry ever was.

I swear, to all of his detractors, it's like last season never happened. The guy was absolutely solid last year before his injury. He was a genuine NBA starting point guard. Was he Chris Paul or Deron Williams? No. But is Jason Kidd either? At this point in his career anyway? Hell no.

People can go on and on about "true point guards" and "quarterbacks" etc... But that doesn't change the fact that when we lost Devin, we lost an explosive if inconsistent player, and a real offensive threat.

In his time here...Harris was never more valuable then Jet to this team. dreamm on

fluid.forty.one · 11-17-2008, 09:27 PM

Kidd may not be good at mid range shots but he has been our most consistant 3 point shooter this season.

And I agree with thig. Kidd has played great this year, even in the half court sets. You can especially tell when things fall apart when he goes to the bench.

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Umm yee great for Devin...but Kidd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Devin. The trade was still a good one and mann, watching Kidd out there is just soo much better then watching Harris..even when we lose.

GO MAVS

When Kidd's retired and a analyst for ESPN Harris won't even be 30.......

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 09:35 PM

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Originally Posted by AxdemxO

In his time here...Harris was never more valuable then Jet to this team. dreamm on

He sure as hell was against the Spurs 2 seasons ago. We don't win that series without him.

basketballgirl25 · 11-17-2008, 09:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

When Kidd's retired and a analyst for ESPN Harris won't even be 30.......

could and prob is ture

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 10:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

When Kidd's retired and a analyst for ESPN Harris won't even be 30.......

and Kidd will probably still be a better pg...

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 10:07 PM

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Originally Posted by AxdemxO

In his time here...Harris was never more valuable then Jet to this team. dreamm on

Last year, Harris was A LOT more valuable to this team than Terry. It wasn't even remotely close. I'll say it again. Devin was the second best player on the team.

Underdog · 11-17-2008, 10:07 PM

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Originally Posted by AxdemxO

and Kidd will probably still be a better pg...

+rep

(I bet Harris is washed up before 30...)

EDIT: don't get me wrong - I love Harris, but the human body can only take so many charges (and flopping) at the NBA level...

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Umm yee great for Devin...but Kidd>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Devin. The trade was still a good one and mann, watching Kidd out there is just soo much better then watching Harris..even when we lose.

GO MAVS

To each his own. Personally, I prefer point guards who can break a defense to guys who can't.

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 10:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

He sure as hell was against the Spurs 2 seasons ago. We don't win that series without him.

Yee I have heard that before. You can argue that. BUT its very simple. When it comes to giving players credit for those 2 or three successful years we had.... Dirk is #1 and Jet is #2..the rest have their place

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 10:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

To each his own. Personally, I prefer point guards who can break a defense to guys who can't.

Devin would have probably become more important this year or next year ..but to say that he was more important the last four years then JET to this teams success is crazy.

basketballgirl25 · 11-17-2008, 10:24 PM

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Originally Posted by AxdemxO

and Kidd will probably still be a better pg...

I don't think when Harris is 30 Kidd will be better I mean Kidd will be like what 41 or so. he could be like Armstrong was last year, but I don't think much more then that. Harris will never be as great as Kidd saying will be better then is kind of pushing it.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Devin would have probably become more important this year or next year ..but to say that he was more important the last four years then JET to this teams success is crazy.

Not the last four years, of course not. But last year, definitely. Devin had a sort of break out year. I didn't get to watch any preseason games last year, and I remember being skeptical when people were telling me how much he had improved since the Golden State loss. But he definitely did improve dramatically. From 05 to 07, yeah, Terry was of course the more important player. But last year Devin really came into his own as a player, and yes, I daresay as a point guard.

Favoring the trade, or preferring Kidd to Harris is one thing. But it is absolutely ridiculous the way some posters around here are just taking a shit on the guy for no reason.

You can argue that Kidd is a better player these days, but that is it. To act like Kidd is still an MVP level guy and light years beyond a player like Devin is absurd. I know it's early in the season, but Devin is putting up 23 ppg on .450 FG%. I would KILL to have those numbers in our starting lineup.

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 10:45 PM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Not the last four years, of course not. But last year, definitely. Devin had a sort of break out year. I didn't get to watch any preseason games last year, and I remember being skeptical when people were telling me how much he had improved since the Golden State loss. But he definitely did improve dramatically. From 05 to 07, yeah, Terry was of course the more important player. But last year Devin really came into his own as a player, and yes, I daresay as a point guard.

Favoring the trade, or preferring Kidd to Harris is one thing. But it is absolutely ridiculous the way some posters around here are just taking a shit on the guy for no reason.

You can argue that Kidd is a better player these days, but that is it. To act like Kidd is still an MVP level guy and light years beyond a player like Devin is absurd. I know it's early in the season, but Devin is putting up 23 ppg on .450 FG%. I would KILL to have those numbers in our starting lineup.

I agree with you somewhat. But Harris IMO has a long way to go to get to the level that Kidd is at. Its not all about stats.

Now having his 23ppg would negate other players and you should know by now that you cant just add a player and expect everyone else to stay at the same level. What would happen to Dirk, Josh?? Harris can put up numbers like tht cuz in NJ all hes got is VC and some other young. I dont think he would average over 20 on this Dallas team

AxdemxO · 11-17-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

I don't think when Harris is 30 Kidd will be better I mean Kidd will be like what 41 or so. he could be like Armstrong was last year, but I don't think much more then that. Harris will never be as great as Kidd saying will be better then is kind of pushing it.

really ; )..

basketballgirl25 · 11-17-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Harris can put up numbers like tht cuz in NJ all hes got is VC and some other young.

he's got Yi on the team who people say could be the next Dirk and even better then Dirk, I don't see it yet, but hopefully it happens

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

and Kidd will probably still be a better pg...

Yea it does a lot of good for the Mavs to have Kidd as an analyst while Harris is tearing it up in New Jersey......

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I agree with you somewhat. But Harris IMO has a long way to go to get to the level that Kidd is at. Its not all about stats.

No, it's not about stats. It's about ability. In this case, the ability to score, and get past the defense. Harris has it. Kidd doesn't.

Quote:

Now having his 23ppg would negate other players and you should know by now that you cant just add a player and expect everyone else to stay at the same level. What would happen to Dirk, Josh?? Harris can put up numbers like tht cuz in NJ all hes got is VC and some other young. I dont think he would average over 20 on this Dallas team

I disagree completely.

You're just not giving the guy his credit. Players' numbers usually are a bit inflated when they play on bad teams, but seriously, give credit where credit is due. The guy can flat out get to the rim.
The only reason he can put up those numbers is because he's only got VC and Yi? And what would he have here? Dirk and Josh... and who else?? Honestly, it's not like we're bursting with offensive talent here.

Quite the opposite I would say. Our problem is we don't have enough scorers. Not in the front court, and certainly not in the back court. Devin had quite a few big games for us and it never detracted from Josh or Dirk's production. Besides, if his scoring average was lower if he were still here, wouldn't it also be logical to assume that his assist numbers would be up?

I'm sorry, but the idea that Devin being here would take away from Dirk and Josh doesn't fly with me. Does Parker's superior scoring ability take away from Duncan and Manu? Do you think they wish they had traded him for Kidd when they had the chance? I mean, he's not a "true" point guard either. Something tells me they're ok with that.

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

+rep

(I bet Harris is washed up before 30...)

EDIT: don't get me wrong - I love Harris, but the human body can only take so many charges (and flopping) at the NBA level...

Nash takes more charges than Harris does and he's what? 35?

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Yee I have heard that before. You can argue that. BUT its very simple. When it comes to giving players credit for those 2 or three successful years we had.... Dirk is #1 and Jet is #2..the rest have their place

What successful years? IMO, beating the Spurs in the 2nd round of the playoffs was the biggest hump this team has ever overcome. Years of getting our asses kicked by them and to finally get over that had alot to do with Devin and Diop. Harris became a man in that round.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think you overstate the problems in the half court. There's been several games where Kidd was an absolute asset in the half court, posting up and creating for others.

Some nights are better than others, sure. But we're still playing with a bucket on our foot, because we have no reliable shooters or slashers in the backcourt. If we had gotten a Maggette or a Redd in the offseason, I might feel differently about the trade. But we didn't, so as it is, we are weaker for it.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 11:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

What successful years? IMO, beating the Spurs in the 2nd round of the playoffs was the biggest hump this team has ever overcome. Years of getting our asses kicked by them and to finally get over that had alot to do with Devin and Diop. Harris became a man in that round.

No kidding. When we made the trade, I specifically thought of how this would effect our matchup situation with the Spurs. Devin really shined anytime we played the Spurs.

Underdog · 11-17-2008, 11:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Nash takes more charges than Harris does and he's what? 35?

Yeah, and Nash's back is all jacked up because of it (not to mention that a pass/shoot guy can deal with injuries better than a slasher...)

Dtownsfinest · 11-17-2008, 11:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, and Nash's back is all jacked up because of it (not to mention that a pass/shoot guy can deal with injuries better than a slasher...)

I think the back problems have more to do with age and minutes he gets a night than it hasto do with taking charges IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No kidding. When we made the trade, I specifically thought of how this would effect our matchup situation with the Spurs. Devin really shined anytime we played the Spurs.

I agree. I can't believe how quickly we've forgotten Harris' impact he had against the Spurs 2 straight years. I know Spurs fans haven't forgotten it. That's what my main concern with the trade was. In had a guy in Harris who could go speed for speed with Paul, Deron and Tony Parker. And those are just guys in the West lol. I knew Kidd was a player. I just didn't think he was the player for this team and I sure as hell didn't think the Mavs were a Kidd away from winning a championship.

Underdog · 11-17-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No kidding. When we made the trade, I specifically thought of how this would effect our matchup situation with the Spurs. Devin really shined anytime we played the Spurs.

Too bad the Warriors weren't the Spurs...

Dirkadirkastan · 11-17-2008, 11:45 PM

Devin played fine against GS. Numerous other players didn't show up, some literally, some figuratively.

Underdog · 11-17-2008, 11:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Devin played fine against GS. Numerous other players didn't show up, some literally, some figuratively.

Devin played fine against Baron Davis?

(I have yet to hear a Devin defender cite anything other than his scoring ability as being an asset to this team...)

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I agree. I can't believe how quickly we've forgotten Harris' impact he had against the Spurs 2 straight years. I know Spurs fans haven't forgotten it. That's what my main concern with the trade was. In had a guy in Harris who could go speed for speed with Paul, Deron and Tony Parker. And those are just guys in the West lol. I knew Kidd was a player. I just didn't think he was the player for this team and I sure as hell didn't think the Mavs were a Kidd away from winning a championship.

Exactly. I don't doubt that Kidd is still a very useful player. But he wasn't the guy we needed, and indeed, this team is not built to make good use of his talents. Passing gurus like Kidd need to be surrounded by shooters and slashers. We don't have enough of either. This is doubly so in Kidd's case because he doesn't have the ability to score himself. We're not even a good passing team. Things would be very different if the guys on this team could all move the rock like the Webber/Vlade era Kings could. That would make up for or at least help offset the teams obvious lack of offensive potency.

Bottom line, before we made the trade, we had a couple of serious problems. After the trade, we have the exact same problems, plus a couple more. We needed to trade for a shooting guard, or a center who could score. Jason Kidd was not the missing piece.