D-Hare lighting it up again! - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Thespiralgoeson · 11-17-2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Too bad the Warriors weren't the Spurs...

Devin may have been overmatched in that series, but I will always always maintain that Avery lost us that series. Any competent coach could've made a couple of very simple, elementary adjustments that I believe would have won us that series.

But it's a moot point anyway because as I said before, it was after that very series that Devin started to really show progress.

Tokey41 · 11-17-2008, 11:59 PM

This is getting ridiculous, of course you'd rather have the talent of Jason Kidd. But on this team that's not enough for ANYTHING to be accomplished and thus you take Harris because a) Even if you hated the guy he was infinitely more enticing as a trade piece, b) we wouldn't give up draft picks for quite literally two years in which the team was either eliminated in the first round again or missed the playoffs (yeah i'm calling it if we stay constructed as we are), c) No matter how well Jason Kidd has played this season... it hasn't amounted to any wins, and d) We had an insane megolomaniac coach who blurred everything. If we had a coach who wasn't choking Harris on a leash he probably would be the same player we're seeing in NJ today.

And at the end of the day it's all moot because the trade went down and we're stuck here. For some reason I keep expecting the front office to have some sort of ace in the hole but how much faith can a fan possibly have at this point in their competence?

Thespiralgoeson · 11-18-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Devin played fine against Baron Davis?

(I have yet to hear a Devin defender cite anything other than his scoring ability as being an asset to this team...)

What other things are there to talk about? What makes Dirk so great besides his scoring ability? I mean, really, basketball is pretty simple. There's scoring, passing, defending, and rebounding. Kidd is obviously a better passer and rebounder. Devin is obviously a better scorer. Defense is really a contestable issue. I've heard a lot of arguments for Kidd being the better defender and vice-versa. Really I think it's too close to really be an issue; Devin is a better individual defender and Kidd is a better team defender.

Dtownsfinest · 11-18-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Exactly. I don't doubt that Kidd is still a very useful player. But he wasn't the guy we needed, and indeed, this team is not built to make good use of his talents. Passing gurus like Kidd need to be surrounded by shooters and slashers. We don't have enough of either. This is doubly so in Kidd's case because he doesn't have the ability to score himself. We're not even a good passing team. Things would be very different if the guys on this team could all move the rock like the Webber/Vlade era Kings could. That would make up for or at least help offset the teams obvious lack of offensive potency.

Bottom line, before we made the trade, we had a couple of serious problems. After the trade, we have the exact same problems, plus a couple more. We needed to trade for a shooting guard, or a center who could score. Jason Kidd was not the missing piece.

I agree. I actually think getting Kidd gave us more problems than we had before. I wonder if possible is there a shooting guard out there the Mavs could snag? Mike Redd maybe? I think he's hurt now but I wonder if the Bucks are out of the playoff hunt by the All Star break would they think about a fire sale? I guess giving up Yi and getting Jefferson sort of took them out of rebuilding mode I guess. I hope its an option though.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-18-2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

This is getting ridiculous, of course you'd rather have the talent of Jason Kidd. But on this team that's not enough for ANYTHING to be accomplished and thus you take Harris because a) Even if you hated the guy he was infinitely more enticing as a trade piece, b) we wouldn't give up draft picks for quite literally two years in which the team was either eliminated in the first round again or missed the playoffs (yeah i'm calling it if we stay constructed as we are), c) No matter how well Jason Kidd has played this season... it hasn't amounted to any wins, and d) We had an insane megolomaniac coach who blurred everything. If we had a coach who wasn't choking Harris on a leash he probably would be the same player we're seeing in NJ today.

And at the end of the day it's all moot because the trade went down and we're stuck here. For some reason I keep expecting the front office to have some sort of ace in the hole but how much faith can a fan possibly have at this point in their competence?

Well said. Devin for Kidd straight up would be one thing (salaries notwithstanding.) But we really overpaid for Kidd. Diop plus draft picks? Yeah we got Diop back, but it cost us the MLE do to it.

Someone in another thread opined that if we tried to trade Dirk right now, we might not get as good a deal for him as New Jersey got for Kidd. I agree with this. It was just a bad trade. We not only traded a young guy for an old guy, but we overpaid to do it.

dirno2000 · 11-18-2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Favoring the trade, or preferring Kidd to Harris is one thing. But it is absolutely ridiculous the way some posters around here are just taking a shit on the guy for no reason.

I brought this up about a month ago. A lot of people that supported Devin when he was here have attempted to tear him down in order to build Kidd up. It's not necessary. Kidd should be able to stand on his own merits. The fact that we have to trash Devin tells me that there's some doubt.

I'm floored that anyone can still call this a good trade. We got bent over by Rod Thorn...and that was before Devin started putting 30 point 10 assist games.

Kidd, for his part, has played better than I expected. You can tell he's really trying to make this thing work. Unfortunately his lack of scoring is just as big of a problem as Devin's lack of playmaking.

basketballgirl25 · 11-18-2008, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I agree. I actually think getting Kidd gave us more problems than we had before. I wonder if possible is there a shooting guard out there the Mavs could snag? Mike Redd maybe? I think he's hurt now but I wonder if the Bucks are out of the playoff hunt by the All Star break would they think about a fire sale? I guess giving up Yi and getting Jefferson sort of took them out of rebuilding mode I guess. I hope its an option though.

I so hope Bucks aren't out of the playoff hunt by All Star break, I love Jefferson and he deserves to make it to the playoffs this year and hope he does because he was one of the best Nets

Underdog · 11-18-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I brought this up about a month ago. A lot of people that supported Devin when he was here have attempted to tear him down in order to build Kidd up. It's not necessary. Kidd should be able to stand on his own merits. The fact that we have to trash Devin tells me that there's some doubt.

I'm floored that anyone can still call this a good trade. We got bent over by Rod Thorn...and that was before Devin started putting 30 point 10 assist games.

Kidd, for his part, has played better than I expected. You can tell he's really trying to make this thing work. Unfortunately his lack of scoring is just as big of a problem as Devin's lack of playmaking.

It isn't "trash talk" about Devin - it's pointing out why we couldn't win it all with him (ever) and what we gained by trading him... Sure, we lost his slashing ability, but we gained a point guard to play the point guard position...

Don't get me wrong - I would have rather packaged JET and kept Devin at the 2, but it is what it is and Dirk seems to be a lot happier with Kidd's style of play than Devin's (I have yet to see him yell at Kidd the way he yelled at Harris on a regular basis...)

The blame doesn't lie on Kidd's shoulders - it lies on Cuban & Donnie's for not making another (obvious) move to pick up a slasher after we got Kidd... We traded one problem for another and we still don't have a legitimate shooting guard or low post threat (I also blame Stack for his part in costing us our greatest trade asset - the KVH contract...)

At best, we'd be treading water with Devin... We took a gamble with Kidd and it could have paid off if the front office had the balls/brains to make another move... It's still not too late to add a missing piece to this team, but if it doesn't happen by the All-Star break, then we're probably blowing it up (and that would still be the case if Devin was on our roster...)

basketballgirl25 · 11-18-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

It isn't "trash talk" about Devin - it's pointing out why we couldn't win it all with him (ever) and what we gained by trading him... Sure, we lost his slashing ability, but we gained a point guard to play the point guard position...

Don't get me wrong - I would have rather packaged JET and kept Devin at the 2, but it is what it is and Dirk seems to be a lot happier with Kidd's style of play than Devin's (I have yet to see him yell at Kidd the way he yelled at Harris on a regular basis...)

The blame doesn't lie on Kidd's shoulders - it lies on Cuban & Donnie's for not making another (obvious) move to pick up a slasher after we got Kidd... We traded one problem for another and we still don't have a legitimate shooting guard or low post threat (I also blame Stack for his part in costing us our greatest trade asset - the KVH contract...)

At best, we'd be treading water with Devin... We took a gamble with Kidd and it could have paid off if the front office had the balls/brains to make another move... It's still not too late to add a missing piece to this team, but if it doesn't happen by the All-Star break, then we're probably blowing it up (and that would still be the case if Devin was on our roster...)

I just have a coment on this, Dirk did seem happy last year after the Kidd trade, but so far this year I think he looks a little off even when he has a good game like vs knicks. Don't get me wrong or anything the only reason I don't like Dirk is because he is really great, but I think he is losing a step or two, prob because of playing this summer though. Mavs wouldn't have won with Harris, but mavs won't win with Kidd either unless they get real real lucky, at least the team took a gamble with Kidd but unless a really good player is traded to Mavs I don't see them winning.

Underdog · 11-18-2008, 12:18 PM

FINtastic · 11-18-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I find your stress reduction kit interesting and would like to purchase one.

Tokey41 · 11-18-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

It isn't "trash talk" about Devin - it's pointing out why we couldn't win it all with him (ever) and what we gained by trading him... Sure, we lost his slashing ability, but we gained a point guard to play the point guard position...

Don't get me wrong - I would have rather packaged JET and kept Devin at the 2, but it is what it is and Dirk seems to be a lot happier with Kidd's style of play than Devin's (I have yet to see him yell at Kidd the way he yelled at Harris on a regular basis...)

The blame doesn't lie on Kidd's shoulders - it lies on Cuban & Donnie's for not making another (obvious) move to pick up a slasher after we got Kidd... We traded one problem for another and we still don't have a legitimate shooting guard or low post threat (I also blame Stack for his part in costing us our greatest trade asset - the KVH contract...)

At best, we'd be treading water with Devin... We took a gamble with Kidd and it could have paid off if the front office had the balls/brains to make another move... It's still not too late to add a missing piece to this team, but if it doesn't happen by the All-Star break, then we're probably blowing it up (and that would still be the case if Devin was on our roster...)

The point that we can't win with Devin is beyond moot when the same goes for Kidd. There's no way we are winning it with him. And Cuban and Donnie are to blame for the trade because we gave up too much for Kidd so we couldn't get a slasher and again that's why the trade was a bad move. NJ should have been having a fire sale and instead they come out ahead (or at least even to those who are STILL in favor of the trade).

jthig32 · 11-18-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I find your stress reduction kit interesting and would like to purchase one.

Ironically, I actually have a poster that looks essentially just like that sitting on my desk as we speak.

Weird.

basketballgirl25 · 11-18-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

The point that we can't win with Devin is beyond moot when the same goes for Kidd. There's no way we are winning it with him. And Cuban and Donnie are to blame for the trade because we gave up too much for Kidd so we couldn't get a slasher and again that's why the trade was a bad move. NJ should have been having a fire sale and instead they come out ahead (or at least even to those who are STILL in favor of the trade).

why should Nets of been having a fire sale? We were a medicore team, and wanted to still try to make the playoffs last year, yes we didn't but at least kind of tried.

Underdog · 11-18-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

The point that we can't win with Devin is beyond moot when the same goes for Kidd. There's no way we are winning it with him. And Cuban and Donnie are to blame for the trade because we gave up too much for Kidd so we couldn't get a slasher and again that's why the trade was a bad move. NJ should have been having a fire sale and instead they come out ahead (or at least even to those who are STILL in favor of the trade).

So what does crying about it accomplish?

Isn't this entire discussion "moot" since the trade already happened???

Maybe we should look to the future for answers instead of harping on the past... Do you have any good suggestions on how to get a slasher in our lineup? What about Gerald Green - could he be our next Devin?

buddha08 · 11-18-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Maybe we should look to the future for answers instead of harping on the past...

We look at history so as not to repeat our mistakes in the future. That's why this thread is important. Do you trust Cuban and Donnie not to make another such mistake?

Underdog · 11-18-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buddha08

We look at history so as not to repeat our mistakes in the future. That's why this thread is important. Do you trust Cuban and Donnie not to make another such mistake?

So then the conversation should be "fire Donnie" rather than "Kidd vs Harris," should it not?

And there's a big difference between learning from the past and living in the past...

DirkFTW · 11-18-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Hrlp, I nrrd to reutrn your kit plaese. I uesd it immediately on sceren wihtout readnig teh instructions, but I still hvae sterss and I think my comupter is almost beokrn.

fluid.forty.one · 11-18-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

So then the conversation should be "fire Donnie" rather than "Kidd vs Harris," should it not?

And there's a big difference between learning from the past and living in the past...

+pretend rep

Underdog · 11-18-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

Hrlp, I nrrd to reutrn your kit plaese. I uesd it immediately on sceren wihtout readnig teh instructions, but I still hvae sterss and I think my comupter is almost beokrn.

FINtastic · 11-18-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

Hrlp, I nrrd to reutrn your kit plaese. I uesd it immediately on sceren wihtout readnig teh instructions, but I still hvae sterss and I think my comupter is almost beokrn.

lmao. Posts like these really make me wish the rep feature was still working.

Tokey41 · 11-18-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

So what does crying about it accomplish?

Isn't this entire discussion "moot" since the trade already happened???

Maybe we should look to the future for answers instead of harping on the past... Do you have any good suggestions on how to get a slasher in our lineup? What about Gerald Green - could he be our next Devin?

There are people who still can't believe that Cuban let Nash walk, I don't think your going to get rid of the Harris talk in less than a year. As for a slasher, Green is apparently our answer for now. Maybe Stack can help net something like a Mike Miller or Michael Redd, then this trade wouldn't look so bleak.

But when you factor in the disgusting overpaying of Diop you can't deny how reckless the front office has been when signing players.

Thespiralgoeson · 11-19-2008, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

So what does crying about it accomplish?

Isn't this entire discussion "moot" since the trade already happened???

Maybe we should look to the future for answers instead of harping on the past... Do you have any good suggestions on how to get a slasher in our lineup? What about Gerald Green - could he be our next Devin?

Well, then pretty much every discussion we ever have about anything basketball related ever is moot, because we're not NBA execs and have no control over anything. Nothing we ever say here, past or present, ever "accomplishes" anything. It's a forum, dude. We're here to talk basketball, and that's what we're doing.

The Kidd trade sucked.

dirno2000 · 11-19-2008, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

It isn't "trash talk" about Devin - it's pointing out why we couldn't win it all with him (ever) and what we gained by trading him... Sure, we lost his slashing ability, but we gained a point guard to play the point guard position...

It's comforting to think that we never could have won with Devin but I doubt it's true. Even if it were true now whose to say it will be a year from now? I'm sure T-Wolves fans thought they'd never win a championship with 25 year old Chauncy Billups.

We lost slashing, gained a point guard yet we're no better on the floor. I love nothing more than to watch a pure PG run a team but I also understand that you don't need one to win in the NBA.

Quote:

Don't get me wrong - I would have rather packaged JET and kept Devin at the 2, but it is what it is and Dirk seems to be a lot happier with Kidd's style of play than Devin's (I have yet to see him yell at Kidd the way he yelled at Harris on a regular basis...)

Dirk's happiness shouldn't be a concern. If we win Dirk will be happy. Kobe openly campainged for Kidd and ripped Bynum on and off the floor. Superstars don't always know best.

Quote:

The blame doesn't lie on Kidd's shoulders - it lies on Cuban & Donnie's for not making another (obvious) move to pick up a slasher after we got Kidd... We traded one problem for another and we still don't have a legitimate shooting guard or low post threat (I also blame Stack for his part in costing us our greatest trade asset - the KVH contract...)

You're ignoring the fact that sending two first rounders and Diop to New Jersey made it next to impossible to get an impact swing player in here. The trade left us with very few bullets in the gun.

Quote:

At best, we'd be treading water with Devin... We took a gamble with Kidd and it could have paid off if the front office had the balls/brains to make another move... It's still not too late to add a missing piece to this team, but if it doesn't happen by the All-Star break, then we're probably blowing it up (and that would still be the case if Devin was on our roster...)

Again, the trade severely hampered out ability to blow it up. Devin has more trade value than Kidd and we gave away a potential 2010 lottery pick.

Pulling out of the deal would have put us in a better position to compete now or to rebuild later.

ty · 11-19-2008, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ironically, I actually have a poster that looks essentially just like that sitting on my desk as we speak.

Weird.

Why desk? Why not brick wall?

jthig32 · 11-19-2008, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty

Why desk? Why not brick wall?

I don't have a brick wall at my office.

basketballgirl25 · 11-20-2008, 06:48 PM

interesting read for anyone who wants too
http://www.northjersey.com/sports/ne..._of_Cuban.html

RaphAC · 11-22-2008, 08:21 AM

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/devin_harris/

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jason_kidd/

wow..Im sure this has been posted, but so far devin is showing us up....

Underdog · 11-22-2008, 08:31 AM

SOMEBODY has to score when you're not playing with Dirk...

Dallas2009CHAMPS · 11-22-2008, 09:01 AM

Devin might be good and young but give him just one injury and look at him wither like an overbroiled carrot..

Kidd, however, is old, lost a step or two, might not be as good as his better days... but if the mavs want to win now.. they made the right choice.. believe me.. Kidd is hungry for that ring and come playoff time.. He'll be playing like a BAD BAD WOLF.. Mark my words

Dirkenstien · 11-22-2008, 10:08 AM

If you actually watch the Nets games it's not difficult to see why we traded him for Kidd. He's quick and has decent skills, but that's about it. He makes terrible decisions, doesn't have a good outside shot, is a pretty bad defender and can't lead a team. Calderon got basically anything he wanted against Devin and kept driving past him into the lane and then dishing off for the easy assist baskets (15 assist 26 points against Devin).

When the game was on the line Carter was the one handling the ball and creating his own shots to keep the Nets alive.

basketballgirl25 · 11-22-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

When the game was on the line Carter was the one handling the ball and creating his own shots to keep the Nets alive.

when the game was on the line later in the fourth yeah Cart did more, but Harris got Nets back in the game earier in the fourth, I'm not taking anything away from Kidd saying Harris is the better player, because Kidd is the better player, but I think Harris is the better player playing with VC, they mesh better together then Kidd and Carter did.

alby · 11-22-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

If you actually watch the Nets games it's not difficult to see why we traded him for Kidd. He's quick and has decent skills, but that's about it. He makes terrible decisions, doesn't have a good outside shot, is a pretty bad defender and can't lead a team. Calderon got basically anything he wanted against Devin and kept driving past him into the lane and then dishing off for the easy assist baskets (15 assist 26 points against Devin).

When the game was on the line Carter was the one handling the ball and creating his own shots to keep the Nets alive.

Winner.

basketballgirl25 · 11-22-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

Winner.

kind of winner, if it wasn't for Harris at the start of the fourth we wouldn't have been in the game for Carter to make those shots, it was a great effort by both of them. I'm still happy we WON, now we got to beat the Clippers tonight

dirno2000 · 11-22-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

SOMEBODY has to score when you're not playing with Dirk...

Somebody has to score when you are playing with Dirk. He doesn't average 50 a game.

cowdog80 · 11-22-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinemablend

Doesn't seem to hurt the Spurs any. Tony Parker is no quarterback. He and Harris really have about the same skill set, except Harrs is better defensively and he's a better 3 point shooter.

Tony Parker's come a long way as the Spurs QB. He's not the prototypical PG, more like the QB who looks for the running lane first, then puts the ball up to his ear to throw it.

But you can notice a definite shift in their offense running through him over the past 2 years compared to Duncan (up until about 2004) and Ginobili (2005-2006).

cowdog80 · 11-22-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I think the back problems have more to do with age and minutes he gets a night than it hasto do with taking charges IMO.

I agree. I can't believe how quickly we've forgotten Harris' impact he had against the Spurs 2 straight years. I know Spurs fans haven't forgotten it. That's what my main concern with the trade was. In had a guy in Harris who could go speed for speed with Paul, Deron and Tony Parker. And those are just guys in the West lol. I knew Kidd was a player. I just didn't think he was the player for this team and I sure as hell didn't think the Mavs were a Kidd away from winning a championship.

Agreed. When the Kidd trade was announced, Spurstalk was much happier than this site.

FINtastic · 11-22-2008, 06:13 PM

I might have to give Devin some props. I saw a highlight last night where he crossed over a guy, started driving, and then stopped on a dime and hit a 17 footer. I have no way of knowing whether that's a reliable move for him or not these days since I only saw that one highlight, but he sure looked smooth doing it. If he's doing that with any consistency, then maybe he is taking the next step. A move like that on a super-quick player like Devin is going to be really hard to stop.

I don't know, it was just one highlight but it did leave me impressed.

dirno2000 · 11-22-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

If you actually watch the Nets games it's not difficult to see why we traded him for Kidd. He's quick and has decent skills, but that's about it. He makes terrible decisions, doesn't have a good outside shot, is a pretty bad defender and can't lead a team. Calderon got basically anything he wanted against Devin and kept driving past him into the lane and then dishing off for the easy assist baskets (15 assist 26 points against Devin).

When the game was on the line Carter was the one handling the ball and creating his own shots to keep the Nets alive.

And despite all his faults New Jersey, a team picked by many to finish last in the East, is 5-3 with him in the line up. You can take any player in the league and pick apart his game to find the negatives but in the end it's all about the positives to outweighing those negatives right?

Bayliss · 11-22-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

And despite all his faults New Jersey, a team picked by many to finish last in the East, is 5-3 with him in the line up. You can take any player in the league and pick apart his game to find the negatives but in the end it's all about the positives to outweighing those negatives right?

How many games will Devin play this year, Dirno?