I know Dallas would do this

[Nash13]

Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (17.4 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.0 apg in 37.7 minutes)
PF Danny Fortson (3.6 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 0.2 apg in 12.4 minutes)
PG Tony Delk (6.2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.8 apg in 16.8 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Michael Doleac (4.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg in 14.3 minutes)
SF Keith Van Horn (15.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.5 apg in 34.7 minutes)
SF Clarence Weatherspoon (3.6 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 14.5 minutes)
PF Mike Sweetney (1.3 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.1 apg in 4.7 minutes)
PF Slavko Vranes (1.3 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.1 apg in 4.7 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -2.4 ppg, -2.4 rpg, and -2.9 apg.

New York trades: C Michael Doleac (4.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.6 apg in 14.3 minutes)
SF Keith Van Horn (15.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.5 apg in 34.7 minutes)
SF Clarence Weatherspoon (3.6 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 14.5 minutes)
PF Mike Sweetney (1.3 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.1 apg in 4.7 minutes)
PF Slavko Vranes (1.3 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.1 apg in 4.7 minutes)
New York receives: PF Antoine Walker (17.4 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.0 apg in 28 games)
PF Danny Fortson (3.6 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 0.2 apg in 22 games)
PG Tony Delk (6.2 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23 games)
Change in team outlook: +2.4 ppg, +2.4 rpg, and +2.9 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


Our lineup:
Nash/Best/Daniels
Finley/Howard/Wahad
Jamison/Van Horn/Weatherspoon
Dirk/Sweetney/Najera
Doleac/Bradley/Vranes

Thomas was already going to let go of Vranes, and Doleac and Weatherspoon don't play enough to matter. The only part Thomas might have a problem with is Sweetney. They need another point guard also.

[Chicago JK]

I don't think so Nash. I got blasted for posting a Walker trade for Kurt Thomas, Van Horn and the two foreign kids (Lampe and Milos). I don't think I would do that trade but I thought I would get more of a even response than I got.

Sweeney was a heck of a college player but he is only around 6'7 and is not a leaper. The knicks just released Vranes and are in the process of buying out Weatherspoon's contract.

[Jamisonite]

i wouldnt

[Nash13]

That's actually a good thing. Weatherspoon was a throw in for salary purposes, and Vranes maybe be signed for less.

Sweetney is much much like Brand, but isn't at his level yet. Plus we get a SF that's better fit for this team, and two new centers.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: Nash13
That's actually a good thing. Weatherspoon was a throw in for salary purposes, and Vranes maybe be signed for less.

Sweetney is much much like Brand, but isn't at his level yet. Plus we get a SF that's better fit for this team, and two new centers.

Keith Van Horn is a nice player but Unlike Walker, he's TISSUE-PAPER SOFT.

I wouldn't do that trade if I was offered a million dollars!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[LRB]

We could get these guys for something cheaper than Walker. If we give up Walker we need to get more in return.

[bernardos70]

No Van Horn! Really, what does he bring to this team that we need right now? And Vranes is a project player, at best.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: bernardos70
No Van Horn! Really, what does he bring to this team that we need right now? And Vranes is a project player, at best.

I think the idea is just to dump Walker. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[Nowitzki 4 3!!]

Keith Van Horn doesn't solve ANY of the mavs problems

[Nash13]

For those who have seen Van Horn play lately, he's been doing good for himself. LRB is right, i would like to see Walker go, because not only is Van Horn better fit for a team like Dallas, but he knows his role. He won't try to go out their and try to take over. It will also give Jamison the starting Spot. Like i said before, i'd rather have Van Horn/Jamison than Walker/Jamison. Right now, this team needs less stars.

Vranes is a project, but what better option do we have right now? Doleac was also mention in the deal.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Nowitzki 4 3!!
Keith Van Horn doesn't solve ANY of the mavs problems

I'm pretty sure that he would create problems. Who would he guard?

[MikeB]

Van Horn is not what we need at all. A no defense playing soft white jump shooter...wait...maybe he does belong here...lol. I say NO. Walker gives us some semblance of toughness and confidence...we need Toine to stay.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

KVE? we got rid of our big white stiff, we don't need another.

[Simon2]

I don't think Walker will be in any trades right now. Nellie is just in love with the guy.

[Nash13]

My point is, that we have too many stars on this team. If Keith Van Horn were on this team, it would give both Jamison and Dirk an opportunity to improve their season/numbers without being a liablity on offense. It would also mean less turnovers, less bad shots, and maybe, just maybe, more wins.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

Originally posted by: Nash13
My point is, that we have too many stars on this team. If Keith Van Horn were on this team, it would give both Jamison and Dirk an opportunity to improve their season/numbers without being a liablity on offense. It would also mean less turnovers, less bad shots, and maybe, just maybe, more wins.

which poses the question:
Do we really need them to have better seasons/numbers if doing so makes them a liability on offense?

[Nash13]

My point is, they won't be a liability at all on offense.

I look at this situation like i'm a fan of another team. This team would gel a lot faster if it weren't for Walker. To me, it's seems like the rest of the players are waiting on Walker to gel with them since he seems to been the center of our offense. Now if we traded for Van Horn, we'd still have a solid SF rotation, plus Dirk will once again be the center of the offense. Add in the fact that we'd have 2 MORE CENTERS on this team. On paper, it looks like we have less talent, but i think that's been our downfall so far.

[Jamisonite]

Ok i look at it like this Van Horn is crazy over paid and the only other guy worth mentioning is Sweetney and id rather have Fortson as of right now than Sweetney. Doleac and The euro dont even play much now..if they cant make an impact in the east how the hell will they in the west

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

I see. It just looks a little biased toward Dirk/Jamison and against Walker. In any case, I still pass on this one. You point out theories and suppositions but the numbers don't favor us in any category. Not a chance I take at this point.

We give up too much and get too little.

We now have even more of a logjam at the forward spots, made even worse by the addition of legit centers.

We give up two options for running the point (IMO the biggest weakness right now) and don't get any in return.

TRADE DECLINED

[Nash13]

I look at it like this. Van Horn is not the only overpaid player in the league, leads disappear when Fortson enters the game, and if you had two capable Centers in Mutumbo and Thomas, the two other Centers are going to be left hanging.

And as far as the Euro goes, you could've made that same arguement for Dirk when he was a rookie.

It's like when Davis left Cleveland, James averaged more points. When Brad Miller left Indiana(being held back by O'Neal), he averaged more. When Malone left Utah, Kirelinko averaged more points. If Walker left Dallas, a lot of people will average more points, i.e. the two people in your signature Jamisonite.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

Dirk and Jamison will have better numbers, but will the team actually win more games because of it? It's arguable...you're not helping your case with the bias thing I brought up.
Malone was the franchise player in Utah. It's quite obvious that when he leaves someone will take up the slack, but again, will they win more games JUST because AK gets more points. Not likely.

and how will miller's numbers look when Webber is back?

[Nash13]

How about this:


Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 37.7 minutes)
PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 12.0 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Kurt Thomas (11.3 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.0 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (14.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 31.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +5.3 ppg, +2.0 rpg, and -1.7 apg.

New York trades: SF Keith Van Horn (16.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.6 apg in 34.7 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.3 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.0 minutes)
New York receives: PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 29 games)
C Bruno Sundov (2.3 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 0.0 apg in 4 games)
PF Ira Newble (4.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.3 apg in 22 games)
C DeSagana Diop (2.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 16 games)
Change in team outlook: -0.2 ppg, +3.2 rpg, and +3.4 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Bruno Sundov (2.3 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7.3 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (14.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 31.1 minutes)
PF Ira Newble (4.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.3 apg in 21.1 minutes)
C DeSagana Diop (2.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.6 minutes)
Cleveland receives: PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 23 games)
SF Keith Van Horn (16.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25 games)
Change in team outlook: -5.1 ppg, -5.2 rpg, and -1.7 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

I think Silas does this because he doesn't think Ilgauskus will pan out. He'd have some problems with Van Horn, but he'd really like a player like Fortson. Fortson and Silas's game is very similar.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

This one I'd consider.

[Nash13]

PFuzz, i'm not a Walker hater, i'm glad that somebody's averaging good numbers. Too me it was obvious in the Memphis game that Jamison would be better off starting than riding the pine. Now if Walker left, Dirk, the better shooter, shot attempts will go up while we wouldn't lose offense by adding Van Horn.

My overall point is Dirk will come back to what he was, as would Jamison, if Walker left, while we wouldn't decrease on offense with Van Horn. Really, the Big 3 would be closer to what they once were with one less big scorer. I think that's a good thing.

[mavs_afroman]

Originally posted by: Psychedelic Fuzz
Dirk and Jamison will have better numbers, but will the team actually win more games because of it? It's arguable...you're not helping your case with the bias thing I brought up.
Malone was the franchise player in Utah. It's quite obvious that when he leaves someone will take up the slack, but again, will they win more games JUST because AK gets more points. Not likely.

and how will miller's numbers look when Webber is back?

Its different in the Mavs case though. They actually won more games at this point last year with Dirk, Fin, and Nash taking a majority of the shots.

I can see both sides though. Walker has played well so it is possible that the team could suffer without him. At the same time, without him Dirk, Fin, and Jamison should all get more shots and HISTORICALLY, not at all time this year, they have been better shooters and scorers than Walker. I tend to agree with the latter and Nash13 but both are possible.

Still, I wouldn't do that trade because I'd much rather wait on a trade for Ratliff or another good shotblocking center.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

Point taken. I just think that Dirk will get to the way he was regardless, and as that happens, I think Walker's decision making will improve. I think we're seeing it improve already, but Dirk will take the team back, if not now, then in the playoffs. No secret that I like Walker, and with your first trade, one would think that when trading 3 players for 5, that would give us the edge in at least one category, but it's just too lopsided. The second trade however is growing on me.

[Nash13]

PFuzz, i don't think Walker can get much better than this. He still make sloppy turnovers and bad decision. One thing that's making him look better is the fact that Jamison has had good games as of late. And when i saw Jamison do so well against Sacramento, and then do bad against an ever worse defense of Memphis, it was clear that ultimately, there's not room big enough for the Toine's. Because in the Sacramento game, when Jamison had a good first half, Walkers numbers suffered.

I've also seen Dirk improve over the past couple of game. And in the games that Dirk's played well, it was Walker's game who suffered. That's how i came to the conclusion that Jamison and Dirk will have better seasons if Walker left.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: Nash13
PFuzz, i don't think Walker can get much better than this. He still make sloppy turnovers and bad decision. One thing that's making him look better is the fact that Jamison has had good games as of late. And when i saw Jamison do so well against Sacramento, and then do bad against an ever worse defense of Memphis, it was clear that ultimately, there's not room big enough for the Toine's. Because in the Sacramento game, when Jamison had a good first half, Walkers numbers suffered.

I've also seen Dirk improve over the past couple of game. And in the games that Dirk's played well, it was Walker's game who suffered. That's how i came to the conclusion that Jamison and Dirk will have better seasons if Walker left.

You make a very valid argument, nash13.


However, I reiterate that the only trade cuban makes at the deadline is the rumored Travis best for Melvin Ely trade 'cause our biggest need is INTERIOR DEFENSE. Cuban will determine Walker's fate this offseason(though I think it will all be up to what Walker wants to do)

[kingrex]

I disagree with the assertion that our problem this year is that we have too much talent. We can NEVER have too much talent. The problem, I would offer instead, is slightly related to the assertion in that we have guys who do NOT yet know their roles.

The 2 factors that contribute to players knowing their roles is the coaches decisiveness and the players willingness. In other words, coach Nelson needs to finally decide how his player rotation is going to go rather than keep his revolving starting line-ups. I understand this at the beginning of the season but as the season goes on players need to understand their roles and the coach plays a big role in this. Lately, I've seen Nellie shorten his rotation, but he still hasn't settled on a set starting lineup.

The second factor is for the players to be willing to accept their roles. I'm not convinced that Nellie has talked to his players about who the primary option should be. At times on the court, this team is unclear as to who they need to go-to for late-in-the-game shots. We don't really have a guy that does the "dirty work" among the "Big 5". That's why guys like Fortson, Najera & Josh Howard are often plugged-in late in games instead of the all the "Big 5".

I made all these points to say this. We don't need to trade Walker for less offense and not much defense. If we trade Walker this season, it is to upgrade our defense and interior offense. The intitial trade that brings Van Horn here doesn't do that. The second trade regarding Zarunas does, but I have my doubts about Zarunas staying healthy all season.

So, I understand your point about brining Van Horn and the gang here to fill roles, but I'm not convinced that Walker won't fill his "role" on this team as rebounder, passer and 3rd/4th option on offense as the season goes on. It is up to Nellie to decide Walker's role and on Walker to willingly accept it.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Nash13
How about this:


Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 37.7 minutes)
PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 12.0 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Kurt Thomas (11.3 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.0 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (14.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 31.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +5.3 ppg, +2.0 rpg, and -1.7 apg.

New York trades: SF Keith Van Horn (16.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.6 apg in 34.7 minutes)
C Kurt Thomas (11.3 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 2.1 apg in 34.0 minutes)
New York receives: PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 29 games)
C Bruno Sundov (2.3 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 0.0 apg in 4 games)
PF Ira Newble (4.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.3 apg in 22 games)
C DeSagana Diop (2.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 16 games)
Change in team outlook: -0.2 ppg, +3.2 rpg, and +3.4 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Bruno Sundov (2.3 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 0.0 apg in 7.3 minutes)
C Zydrunas Illgauskas (14.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 31.1 minutes)
PF Ira Newble (4.8 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.3 apg in 21.1 minutes)
C DeSagana Diop (2.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.6 minutes)
Cleveland receives: PF Danny Fortson (3.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 23 games)
SF Keith Van Horn (16.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 1.6 apg in 25 games)
Change in team outlook: -5.1 ppg, -5.2 rpg, and -1.7 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

I think Silas does this because he doesn't think Ilgauskus will pan out. He'd have some problems with Van Horn, but he'd really like a player like Fortson. Fortson and Silas's game is very similar.

No way Cleveland does this trade. You don't give up 3 centers for an undersized PF with no offense and soft SF. Just won't happen.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: LRB

No way Cleveland does this trade. You don't give up 3 centers for an undersized PF with no offense and soft SF. Just won't happen.

Walker is not soft. But Cleveland won't do this deal. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img]

[LRB]

Originally posted by: MightyToine

Walker is not soft. But Cleveland won't do this deal. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img]

MT, look at the deal a little closer. Cleveland doesn't get walker, they get Keith Van Horn, the soft SF to whom I was referring. NY gets Walker. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[mavs_afroman]

Originally posted by: MightyToine

You make a very valid argument, nash13.


However, I reiterate that the only trade cuban makes at the deadline is the rumored Travis best for Melvin Ely trade 'cause our biggest need is INTERIOR DEFENSE. Cuban will determine Walker's fate this offseason(though I think it will all be up to what Walker wants to do)

I doubt that actually. Why would Cuban wait till the offseason? If he then decides he doesn't want Walker we get nothing in return. At least now, he can trade and get something back for him.

[Nash13]

Ok, How about this:

Dallas trades: PG Travis Best (3.2 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 13.6 minutes)
PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 37.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (14.6 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.5 apg in 30.4 minutes)
C DeSagana Diop (2.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -3.1 ppg, +1.1 rpg, and -4.9 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas (14.6 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.5 apg in 30.4 minutes)
C DeSagana Diop (2.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.6 minutes)
Cleveland receives: PG Travis Best (3.2 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 25 games)
C Eddy Curry (13.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 22 games)
SF Eddie Robinson (4.6 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.2 apg in 24 games)
PF Marcus Fizer (6.4 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.8 apg in 17 games)
Change in team outlook: +10.3 ppg, +2.0 rpg, and +2.8 apg.

Chicago trades: C Eddy Curry (13.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 30.6 minutes)
SF Eddie Robinson (4.6 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 1.2 apg in 17.1 minutes)
PF Marcus Fizer (6.4 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.8 apg in 14.2 minutes)
Chicago receives: PF Antoine Walker (17.3 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 5.1 apg in 29 games)
Change in team outlook: -7.2 ppg, -3.1 rpg, and +2.1 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

[sike]

I dont think the knicks have anything the Mavs would be interested in....unless we are just trading our trash......

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

to begin where we left off last night...

PFuzz, i don't think Walker can get much better than this. He still make sloppy turnovers and bad decision. One thing that's making him look better is the fact that Jamison has had good games as of late. And when i saw Jamison do so well against Sacramento, and then do bad against an ever worse defense of Memphis, it was clear that ultimately, there's not room big enough for the Toine's. Because in the Sacramento game, when Jamison had a good first half, Walkers numbers suffered.

I've also seen Dirk improve over the past couple of game. And in the games that Dirk's played well, it was Walker's game who suffered. That's how i came to the conclusion that Jamison and Dirk will have better seasons if Walker left.[/quote]

When one of the big five gets hot and takes over, the others' scoring totals will suffer. If one were to leave, the others' numbers get better. It's common sense and I'm not disputing that.
What I'm saying is that you put too much stock in that. It won't necessarily translate into more wins.

Walker WAS a turnover machine, but his turnovers are down to the point where he averages less than Nash does. In memphis he made some very nice passes, including one where he went up for a shot, decided AGAINST THE BAD SHOT and passed to Jamison who was right on his heels. Dirk is getting better with every game now, and Walker may be losing points, but he's getting closer to the triple double.
I think these 5 guys are classy and team oriented enough to live with slight decreases in numbers, and each one will grow into his own niche as the season goes on, and the turnovers will keep going down as walker starts making better decisions and the rest of the team gets more familiar with the offensive sets and plays.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: mavs_afroman

I doubt that actually. Why would Cuban wait till the offseason? If he then decides he doesn't want Walker we get nothing in return. At least now, he can trade and get something back for him.

What makes you think Cuban will WAIT till the offseason? I guarantee you that at the Trading deadline, Best for ELY will be a reality. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[StupidDannyAInge]

This thread is hilarious. Anyone who has ever watched Keith Van Horn's career knows what kind of player he is.
He has had a few good offensive games in New York recently but he does nothing else.


Nash is averaging the most turnovers on this team but I find it ironic that Walker is the problem.
(I am not calling Nash a problem. He is a great passer. I am njust saying the diea of said problem)

By the way Sike (If you read this) Here is a little proof to your awards. I wonder where I ever got that idea that what you say never happened on this board.lol

[sike]

[quote]
Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge
This thread is hilarious. Anyone who has ever watched Keith Van Horn's career knows what kind of player he is.
He has had a few good offensive games in New York recently but he does nothing else.[q/]

With i agree in total!



[quote]
[i]Nash is averaging the most turnovers on this team but I find it ironic that Walker is the problem.
(I am not calling Nash a problem. He is a great passer. I am njust saying the diea of said problem)[q/]

good to hear

[i]By the way Sike (If you read this) Here is a little proof to your awards. I wonder where I ever got that idea that what you say never happened on this board.lol

I always read you StupidDA, you make me laugh!

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]