Tough JoHo question to answer for a big man.

[PepperTheMavsFan41]

Ok Answer this question.

GSW are on the brink. They will trade Dampier somewere. There willing to take Toine back, but they have to have Howard or no deal. In return we get Speedy Claxton.

Why do they do it? They might not, but they suck, there trying to get as many good pieces as they can.

What do you do?

[dalmations202]

Are you talking something like this?

Golden State trades: PF Clifford Robinson (11.9 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 3.1 apg in 34.4 minutes)
PG Speedy Claxton (10.1 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 4.4 apg in 26.5 minutes)
C Erick Dampier (11.9 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 32.2 minutes)
Golden State receives: SF Josh Howard (8.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 23.2 minutes)
PF Antoine Walker (15.3 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 5.2 apg in 37.3 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -10.2 ppg, -3.9 rpg, and -1.7 apg.

Dallas trades: SF Josh Howard (8.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 1.4 apg in 23.2 minutes)
PF Antoine Walker (15.3 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 5.2 apg in 37.3 minutes)
Dallas receives: PF Clifford Robinson (11.9 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 3.1 apg in 51 games)
PG Speedy Claxton (10.1 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 4.4 apg in 50 games)
C Erick Dampier (11.9 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 0.8 apg in 51 games)
Change in team outlook: +10.2 ppg, +3.9 rpg, and +1.7 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

[Drbio]

No. Dampier is having a good season and would be a nice addition, but look at his track record.....he is not guaranteed to be sturdy and reliable. It is refreshing to bring a guy in like Howard off the draft and have him play. I would like to see him develop here. The offer isn't bad, I just prefer to keep Howard at this point.

Walker should be able to bring more if you have to trade him.

[Poindexter Einstein]

"No thanks" to GS.

[LRB]

Bad deal for the Mavs, and I'm not sure if it would be great for the Warriors.

[Dirkenstien]

this is a big NO

[Nicky31]

You would have to be crazy including Howard in any deal at this point. He is making a name for himself as a rookie on a good quality team. Besides we would not get fair market value for him right now...

Bad trade for the Maverick's...

[PepperTheMavsFan41]

So If it were possible you wouldnt trade JoHo for Dampier striaght up?

[LRB]

Originally posted by: PepperTheMavsFan41
So If it were possible you wouldnt trade JoHo for Dampier striaght up?

No, I wouldn't. Dampier is approaching the end of his career and up untill this year he hasn't been anything to write home about. JHo is at the very beginning of his NBA career and he's definitely something to write home about.

[PepperTheMavsFan41]

End of his carrer? WHat is this his 8th season. Is Toine done? He came out the same year.

He is an Elite Rebounder
the 3rd best center in the west
Around what? 5 - 7 in the league.
Big body

JoHo is great. Young defensive swingman. Best rebounding guard in the league, but we have a Max player at his position.

[Drbio]

I still don't do it. Call it a hunch.

[LRB]

1st of all, Howard is more of a 3 than a 2, although he can play both positions. He now starts at the 3.

Dampier will turn 30 this year. 30 for a professional athelete means you're nearing the end of your career unless you're a very exceptional athlete. It is around 30 where your physical abilities start to diminish. It doesn't mean they go away overnight, but they certainly start to decline. Damp is also in his 8th season. Most NBA players don't last 8 seasons. 12 seasons is considered a long career, heck even 10 years is really good. Realistically we could expect him to stay at or near his current level for probably 4 seasons at most. Josh should be able to give us twice as many seasons.

Dampier has only been an elite rebounder this year. Damp's career average in rebounds is only about 1.3 over Josh Howards career average. Take away this year and Damp would only be averaging 0.7 more rebounds per game than Josh. Howard also averages more combined blocks and steals that Dampier does this year.

Who know how Damp would do in Nellie's system. Would he get very many minutes? We don't know. We do know that Howard does very well.

Will Dampier revert back to his prior form? Who knows. Can he score enough for Nellie? Big question mark there.

If Dampier had had more than 1/2 good season in 7.5 seasons, I might not be so doubtful. But right now I'll take Howard, it's much less of a risk and has a higher chance of payoff IMO.

[PepperTheMavsFan41]

Your absolutly right about Dampier, but a center is MUCH more valueable than a swingman.

Who helps the Mavs win more now?? Im trying to win a title.

A legit center who can bang like few out there, rebound and clog the middle.

Or, a defensive swingman. Although he is the best rebouder under the 6"7 in the league. As much we love JoHo. I think thats an easy question.

[Poindexter Einstein]

"a center is MUCH more valueable than a swingman"

Nope not true. It is only true if the two players are of roughly equal ability and talent. But big-n-mediocre does NOT have more value than medium-n-excellent. Portland learned that lesson the hard way in the mid-80s.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
"a center is MUCH more valueable than a swingman"

Nope not true. It is only true if the two players are of roughly equal ability and talent. But big-n-mediocre does NOT have more value than medium-n-excellent. Portland learned that lesson the hard way in the mid-80s.

True: But on this team, this year. A center would definately be more valuable than a swingman. We have Jamison, Walker, Howard, Dirk, and to a lesser extent Daniels, and Najera, even TAW, all of whom could play the 3 without moving Finley there like Nelson likes to do.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

True: But on this team, this year. A center would definately be more valuable than a swingman. We have Jamison, Walker, Howard, Dirk, and to a lesser extent Daniels, and Najera, even TAW, all of whom could play the 3 without moving Finley there like Nelson likes to do.

Then why didn't we keep Mamdou and cut Daniels? The blanket statement that a center is worth more than a swingman is ridiculous. Yes some centers are worth more than some swingmen. But not all centers are more valuable than all swingmen.

I disagree that this team needs a center more than Howard this year. With Bradley and Williams and occasionally Fortson we're got more than enough to meet our needs if Nellie would play them. Dampier won't help us if he's constantly on the bench in foul trouble, which would likely be the case if we gave up our best perimeter defender. And the Dampier of last year would be a step back IMO from Bradley and Williams.

I would only trade Walker for Dampier because we gain so much by losing Walker's negatives. This is not the case with Howard. Now if we could trade Howard for Yao, it would be a totally different story.

[Nicky31]

Originally posted by: PepperTheMavsFan41
Your absolutly right about Dampier, but a center is MUCH more valueable than a swingman.

Who helps the Mavs win more now?? Im trying to win a title.

A legit center who can bang like few out there, rebound and clog the middle.

Or, a defensive swingman. Although he is the best rebouder under the 6"7 in the league. As much we love JoHo. I think thats an easy question.

Then, I guess Cleveland and Denver should be in the hunt since they both have rookie swingman that Golden State would be willing to trade for in..(Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony)

[dalmations202]

Then why didn't we keep Mamdou and cut Daniels? The blanket statement that a center is worth more than a swingman is ridiculous. Yes some centers are worth more than some swingmen. But not all centers are more valuable than all swingmen.

I disagree that this team needs a center more than Howard this year. With Bradley and Williams and occasionally Fortson we're got more than enough to meet our needs if Nellie would play them. Dampier won't help us if he's constantly on the bench in foul trouble, which would likely be the case if we gave up our best perimeter defender. And the Dampier of last year would be a step back IMO from Bradley and Williams.

I would only trade Walker for Dampier because we gain so much by losing Walker's negatives. This is not the case with Howard. Now if we could trade Howard for Yao, it would be a totally different story.

You have a point. I guess my definition of Center, is different from yours. I do not consider a guy who is a 7' scrub, a Center. At best he would be a backup Center like, IMO Bradley. I think Bradley is a GREAT backup Center - he just isn't a starting Center.
Would I trade Michael Jordon in his prime for Patrick Ewing in his prime- no. Too much disparity in talent. Would I trade a good swingman for a good center - yes - especially when the weakness on the team I have is Center. Would you trade Howard for Darko then? What about Howard for Ben Wallace? IMO, this team this year, needs a Center. Not just any center, but a good quality one. I would trade any one of the Forwards not named Dirk for a Quality Center. Now the debate comes at "who is a Quality Center"?

[Poindexter Einstein]

DALM ....you are finally seeing the point: Dampier is desirable as a C if (and only if) he is a very good center, especially if you are trading Howard for him (cause Howard is going to be VERY good). Unfortunately, Dampier's ability is uncertain, because his "production" this year is atypical for him. He may be merely a mediocre player who is just having a good (but temporary) period.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
DALM ....you are finally seeing the point: Dampier is desirable as a C if (and only if) he is a very good center, especially if you are trading Howard for him (cause Howard is going to be VERY good). Unfortunately, Dampier's ability is uncertain, because his "production" this year is atypical for him. He may be merely a mediocre player who is just having a good (but temporary) period.

I agree and see your point.

Now to my point. A good quality center on this team, this year, is worth more than any of the forwards on the team - not named Dirk ( he is unique) because we have lots of talent at forward, and very little at the Center position.

I am not saying Damp is the answer (maybe, maybe not). I am saying that the next piece of the puzzle is to find that quality Center.
Howard will probably be very good for years to come, but he will not be the deciding factor THIS YEAR as to whether or not we win the title. Point being, if I could trade Howard for Shaq who is on his last legs - I would make that trade. Shaq will retire soon, and Howard will be an All-star soon, but the title would be in Dallas this year if this Hypothetical trade were made.

[LRB]

DALM there is a huge gap between Shaq and Dampier in talent. And Shaq is only 2 years older than Dampier, so odds are Damp doesn't have much time left. And even if we got Damp this year, there is no guarrantee that he would be able to do near as well in Nellie's system. He could very well revert back to the Dampier of old.

I don't think that Damp could but us over the top this year, because he would be too knew to the team come playoff time. We would needt to shoot for next year most likely. There's more to lead us to believe that Damp would revert to his old form next year than maintain his current form. And we have no idea how he would perform in the playoffs. But since we most likely will need to wait until next year when he has a full training camp and season to prepare for the playoffs, I have to ask would we be better with Ostertag and Howard or just Dampier. While Ostertag isn't a certainy, I would rate the odds of us getting him if we want him as much higher than Damp maintaining his current form.

If Dampier had more history of success, like Ben Wallace, then I'd say go for it. Bur right now it's too much of a risk.

[dalmations202]

I like Ostertag/Howard/Walker better than Dampier/Robinson as well. It still doesn't put us in any better shape this year though.
I even like it better than Ostertag/Dampier/Robinson which would still be a possibility.

I just don't know who is that next piece though. Walker will be worth more next year, and barring injury - they should actually be a little better. Still, they have been looking for a Center for years. I think Rasheed Wallace at the 5 would be what we would need. He has the O ability that Don covets, and yet has attitude, and can play some D. I think he wants to go to NY though, so I don't think it will work. Who are you going to get, that will be available next year then ? ?

[ddh33]

I'm on record as saying that this team could use a trade. But not Josh Howard.

Josh is more of what is right with this team than what is wrong with it. Maybe I overvalue him, but that is because he provides something that no one else on this team does. I would much rather move one of the more redundant parts.

[MikeB]

The only thing that makes this even a thought is that Dampier is HUGE. If you look at GS and the big men that they decide to get rid of it is amazing. Webber and Robert Parish come to mind. Parish was a so so player who blossomed when he left there and got in a system more condusive to his talents...now do I think Dampier would fit in here in Dallas...No...not with Nellie as coach. I think that the addition of Tags in the offseason(if we are able to accomplish this) along with what we have including Howard (who will only get better!) along with whatever we wind up getting for Walker (I believe he will be shipped out either in the summer or by the deadline next year)will set us up for a title run next season.

[PepperTheMavsFan41]

Some of you guys are blind.

Stop comparing JoHo to Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony and FREAKING Micheal Jordon.


Theres certainly a difference between those players.

Are you a better team if you trade a position you have a Strength at for a position were you have a major hole at???

OF course you are.

[LRB]

Are you a better team if you trade a position you have a Strength at for a position were you have a major hole at???

Actually right now I wouldn't say that we have a major hole at any postion. Bradley/Williams are more than adequate. Sure we could get better, but we could get better at every postion. However if we traded Howard we'd have a hole on the team because we'd like a shutdown perimeter defender.

Howard may not be Lebron, Carmelo, and surley not MJ, but Dampier isn't Shaq, Yao, or Wilt either. So look at the whole picture before you go calling someone blind. I'm not ready to trade the steal of the 2003 draft for an aging center who has been nothing more than a spare his whole career except for the last 1/2 season of a contract year. Sure if Dampier could come in and play like he has so far this season for the rest of the year and then for another 5 or 6 seasons, then I'd say that it would be well worth it. But the odds are that won't happen and won't even come close to happening.

We're OK at center this year, although we could get better. I would certainly consider trading Walker for Dampier, but not Howard. Howard is a perfect fit for this team and fills some major holes that we've had. He brings needed defense, offensive rebounding, athletism, and composure. I really think that Howard has what it takes to be a very good leader in a few years. You don't throw away a talent with this much upside over some highly risky gamble, which even if it pays off won't bring you a whole lot. Face it Dampier can't guard Shaq. He can't guard Duncan. And I even doubt that he can even guard Yao consistently. We're not going to beat the Spurs and Lakers by overwhelming them at the center position. We'll need to beat them at our other positions.

And while I agree that we need to lose a forward and Howard is not untouchable, it will still take a pretty good return in talent to trade Josh.

[FineCubanCigar]

Howard is Finley's future replacement, so that is a crappy trade.

[Nicky31]

Originally posted by: PepperTheMavsFan41
Some of you guys are blind.

Stop comparing JoHo to Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony and FREAKING Micheal Jordon.


Theres certainly a difference between those players.

Are you a better team if you trade a position you have a Strength at for a position were you have a major hole at???

OF course you are.

Pepper41,

The only reason I was comparing Josh Howard to these other players is that they basically play the same position (swingman)..I was just giving you some examples of how the importance of player's values change with major upside vs. position on the court. Thus are not usually not the first players you hear mentioned as being trade bait for a player such as Dampier's status (spare until the final year of his contract)...

What the Warrior's should have done if they were totally sold on Howard was try to make a trade with Dallas during the last draft for their first round pick for Dampier, and Dallas would have really considering making this deal I feel at the time, and then the Warrior's could have picked up Josh Howard in the draft. Instead of wanting him after he has shown major upside...(that's what being a great GM is all about, and that's what Nellie seems to be a master of is seeing talent and knowing potential in workout sessions vs. game time)...


The main reason I wouldn't trade Josh Howard is only because of the circumstances regarding Finley and his age and his performance doesn't always match his contract, and that Howard would be a good fit for Michael's replacement if he keeps showing improvement. I have a feeling Finley (because of his trade value) or Walker (because of his contract) and filters gets traded next season for a center and a backup point guard. These are the only options in my mind that make sense for the Mav's if they want to continue forward to becoming a championship team...

It's sad to mention Finley's name regarding a trade especially if they don't win it all this year. He is the most deserving on the Mav's team to win the championship I feel because he has seen and felt the lows in the Maverick's organazation, but more importantly has been a great guy to have in here in Dallas helping the community...

(I can remember it like it was yesterday)
Scottie Pippen proclaiming Michael Finley shouldn't play in the all-star game because he plays for the Dallas Maverick's...

[PepperTheMavsFan41]

we now have the most tradeable commodity in the NBA, the 15 million dollar expiring contract of Antoine Walker

[TheBaron]

Originally posted by: PepperTheMavsFan41
we now have the most tradeable commodity in the NBA, the 15 million dollar expiring contract of Antoine Walker

If he's a playoff legend we can keep him, if he's not his value will be higher next year than his value was at the trade deadline with him playing poorly and having more than a season on his contract.

[sike]

if big Damp were 3 years younger, I just may do this deal....but as is....no way.....though getting a REAL BIG MAN would be ever so sweet....keep dreamin' mav fans.....

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: TheBaron

If he's a playoff legend we can keep him, if he's not his value will be higher next year than his value was at the trade deadline with him playing poorly and having more than a season on his contract.

Playoff Legend = Helping getting this team to the Finals.


Remember that NVE helped the Mavs get to the WCF so Walker has to ONE-UP the Nick The Quick(now known these days as Nick the Old and Slow)

[OutletPass]

Sorry, but NVE 's shooting makes Walker look like a total clown.

Walker, at his present pace, will be the worst 3 point shooter (with 250 attempts) in NBA History.

I'll repeat it for MT...

The WORST 3 point shooter in NBA FREAKING HISTORY !!!

[OutletPass]

JHO has eclipsed Walker...

Walker is the 6th best on this team...at the very best.

[ddh33]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
JHO has eclipsed Walker...

Walker is the 6th best on this team...at the very best.

That's why I felt that Walker was expendable at the deadline. His biggest asset is not his scoring. I think his rebounding, ballhandling, and playmaking ability is most needed.

Now, I just hope that Antoine realizes his role and plays it well.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
Sorry, but NVE 's shooting makes Walker look like a total clown.

Walker, at his present pace, will be the worst 3 point shooter (with 250 attempts) in NBA History.

I'll repeat it for MT...

The WORST 3 point shooter in NBA FREAKING HISTORY !!!

So what's your point, OP?


I was just discussing "Playoff Legend" stuff and you throw this OBVIOUS crap out of left field... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

Walker.....worst 3-point shooter? Wow. Why would you say that? [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[Lonely PSU Mavs Fan]

I think whoever gets Dampier will regret it. It is a contract year for him, which is why his production is so high. I don't buy that he is just now "blossoming" and his production will stay at its current mark for the next 3 to 5 years. Once he gets his fat contract he will revert back to serviceable center erick dampier. I sure as heck would not want him. Only case in which i would like to see him in a mavs uniform would have been for the rest of this year, but not at the expense of howard. I think that if a rookie is showing signs of promise you HAVE to hold on to them.

[sike]

The WORST 3 point shooter in NBA FREAKING HISTORY !!!

the emphasis made me laugh...
back on topic...no, this team does not want to trade JHo....he is what they have been looking for and now that they have him.....it would take quite a player to pry him away!

[kingrex]

Josh Howard is the best defender on this team, and he can defend against all positions save the 5. Trading him away for Dampier will result be a net loss. Yes Dampier has been much improved this year. Yes he is a legit starting center which is a position long coveted by the Mavericks, however, by taking away the things that Josh Howard does and adding what Dampier does (factoring their relative age from each other), long-term this would be a net loss for the Mavericks.

I want to get Dampier, but not if it means trading Josh Howard.

I would trade Walker and pretty much anyone else (except the Big 3 of course). But not Josh Howard.