Im sorry guys, I dont see Kidd leading this team anywhere

[SMC0007]

like anyone could even know that...

[EricaLubarsky]

Lakers have the best chance of making it to the finals.
Fisher 7ppg, 2.7apg, 2.5rpg in 27mpg. Oh, but he can hit the three, right? Only at 36%
Kidd 9ppg, 9.2apg, 5.3rpg in 36mpg...and shoots 40% from three

You can make the argument that Kidd is slowing down, sure. Just dont say a team needs a scoring point to win. Its ridiculous.

Rondo 14ppg
Gibson 6ppg
Fisher 7ppg

[iella]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Lakers have the best chance of making it to the finals.
Fisher 7ppg, 2.7apg, 2.5rpg in 27mpg. Oh, but he can hit the three, right? Only at 36%
Kidd 9ppg, 9.2apg, 5.3rpg in 36mpg...and shoots 40% from three

You can make the argument that Kidd is slowing down, sure. Just dont say a team needs a scoring point to win. Its ridiculous.

Rondo 14ppg
Gibson 6ppg
Fisher 7ppg

QFT. If only the numbers were enough to shut people up. Unfortunately...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

like anyone could even know that...

I laughed.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Lakers have the best chance of making it to the finals.
Fisher 7ppg, 2.7apg, 2.5rpg in 27mpg. Oh, but he can hit the three, right? Only at 36%
Kidd 9ppg, 9.2apg, 5.3rpg in 36mpg...and shoots 40% from three

You can make the argument that Kidd is slowing down, sure. Just dont say a team needs a scoring point to win. Its ridiculous.

Rondo 14ppg
Gibson 6ppg
Fisher 7ppg

A team might not necessarily nead a scoring point to win, but I might argue that this one does. Or if not a scoring point guard, at least a solid scoring guard at all, which is something this team hasn't had since Michael Finley was in his prime.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

A team might not necessarily nead a scoring point to win, but I might argue that this one does.

I challenge you to do so.

[CadBane]

No one needs a scoring PG. They do need a scoring GUARD though. (Kobe, Wade, Allen, Prime RIP, ect.)

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by CadBane

No one needs a scoring PG. They do need a scoring GUARD though. (Kobe, Wade, Allen, Prime RIP, ect.)

Exactly.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I challenge you to do so.

I just did.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just did.

Cute. But an argument and a statement are two different things.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Cute. But an argument and a statement are two different things.

Well it's pretty simple really. A weak backcourt has been the death knell of this team for quite some time now IMO. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any championship team that hasn't had a much stronger backcourt than the post-Nash Mavericks (save maybe the '99 Spurs would made up for it by having not one but two phenomenal low-post scorers.) This offense simply has no balance, nor has it ever in recent years. It's weak on the perimeter and weak inside. What we really need is a guard who can carve up defenses and score from anywhere on the floor (and yeah, an upgrade at center wouldn't hurt either.)

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well it's pretty simple really. A weak backcourt has been the death knell of this team for quite some time now IMO. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any championship team that hasn't had a much stronger backcourt than the post-Nash Mavericks (save maybe the '99 Spurs would made up for it by having not one but two phenomenal low-post scorers.) This offense simply has no balance, nor has it ever in recent years. It's weak on the perimeter and weak inside. What we really need is a guard who can carve up defenses and score from anywhere on the floor (and yeah, an upgrade at center wouldn't hurt either.)

Of course you need a strong backcourt, and of course upgrades are always good. But I'm still stuck on why this team specifically needs a scoring point guard.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Of course you need a strong backcourt, and of course upgrades are always good. But I'm still stuck on why this team specifically needs a scoring point guard.

I never said it did. You cleverly left out half of my post when you quoted me before.

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

A team might not necessarily nead a scoring point to win, but I might argue that this one does. Or if not a scoring point guard, at least a solid scoring guard at all, which is something this team hasn't had since Michael Finley was in his prime.

Suffice it to say I think you need at least prolific one scoring guard. If you've got a Kobe, or a Wade etc... then sure, you can get away with having a point guard with little to no scoring ability. But we don't, so we can't.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I never said it did. You cleverly left out half of my post when you quoted me before.

Right, I wanted to single it out so you'd quit smattering in subtle Kidd hate as if he's the primary reason for the backcourt issues.

Suffice it to say I think you need at least prolific one scoring guard. If you've got a Kobe, or a Wade etc... then sure, you can get away with having a point guard with little to no scoring ability. But we don't, so we can't.

How about this: Two efficient scorers that can create their own shot. Their position and style of play are secondary.

Then you need guys that can play defense and in an offensive system well enough so that the team isn't entirely dependent on the studs in isolation plays.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Right, I wanted to single it out so you'd quit smattering in subtle Kidd hate as if he's the primary reason for the backcourt issues.

There's no "Kidd hate." It's simple fact. We have no guards on this team that can carry the offensive burden, Kidd included. So, he may not be a "primary reason" but he's not exactly a secondary reason either.

I like Kidd just fine. I like Terry too. I also like JJB. But I don't think any of them are the right players to take this team to a title. That's not "hate." It's just an opinion based on years of observation, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

How about this: Two efficient scorers that can create their own shot. Their position and style of play are secondary.

I'm not sure I agree with the last part. You have to consider who your team is built around. I think any team built around Dirk Nowitzki needs an all-NBA caliber perimeter player.

Then you need guys that can play defense and in an offensive system well enough so that the team isn't entirely dependent on the studs in isolation plays.

I think we can all agree on that.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I'm not sure I agree with the last part. You have to consider who your team is built around. I think any team built around Dirk Nowitzki needs an all-NBA caliber perimeter player.

Well, you did start out by saying it needed to be a point guard. Then you were flexible enough to accept any guard. Then you admitted two post players worked fine. So why are we being restrictive?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Well, you did start out by saying it needed to be a point guard. Then you were flexible enough to accept any guard.

Indeed. I wish we had a point guard who'd put up 20+ per. I really wish we had a backcourt like San Antonio's, or the old Detroit teams'. I'd settle for Kidd at point if we had a superstar at the other spot.

Then you admitted two post players worked fine.

Indeed they do, but Dirk isn't a post player, so it doesn't apply to the Mavs.

So why are we being restrictive?

I dunno, because it's fun? Or maybe I'm not thinking about absolutes but rather what specifically applies to a team build around Dirk Nowitzki.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Or maybe I'm not thinking about absolutes but rather what specifically applies to a team build around Dirk Nowitzki.

So a post player is better off with another post player and a perimeter player is better off with another perimeter player? I would have figured, if anything, one of each would be ideal.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

So a post player is better off with another post player and a perimeter player is better off with another perimeter player? I would have figured, if anything, one of each would be ideal.

...I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Either you didn't understand me, or you're just being a smart ass. Either way, you're putting words in my mouth and it's not helping( although I enjoy the banter as much as I'm sure you do.) "A post player is better off with a post player blah blah blah..." Those are absolutes, and I just said I'm not talking about absolutes. I'm not talking about post players or perimeter players. I'm talking about Dirk, who is a truly unique player and falls into neither category.

The '99 Spurs circumstances don't apply to the Mavs because Dirk isn't Tim Duncan, and David Robinson is retired. Therefore, the Mavericks are not under any circumstances going to have two hall of fame low-post scorers to compensate for lack of scoring in the backcourt. They're different teams, with different players, in a different time, against different opponents. When you have two dominant players like Duncan and Robinson, you can throw a lot of conventional rules out the window. The Mavs don't have that luxury.

What that all means... I have no idea, because I don't even know what you're trying to get at anymore. If you're trying to get me to say that we can win a title with Kidd at point guard, then yes, I'll say that we can win with Kidd if we get an absolute stud at the 2 spot. I also think we could win with Terry or Howard if we had an equally studly player at point. The door swings both ways.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

...I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

I suggested that it only takes two guys, rather than two guys that must each play a specific position. The old Spurs had a 4 and a 5, the new Spurs have a 1 and a 4.5, the old Lakers had a 2 and a 5, the new Lakers have a 2 and a 4, the Celtics had a 3 and a 4, etc. I was challenging the notion that a 1 or 2 was strictly necessary.

That said, having a scoring guard around would be nice, absolutely. But why must he be a 1 or a 2? Why is he more effective then an elite scoring 3 or 5 with Dirk?

[dude1394]

I would say we need a scoring guard also. We also need a smart point guard and a leader at that spot also. I'm not sure devin was it.

If we did have a ginobbli-type player this team would be really, really good imo. And that would be with Jkiddo.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I suggested that it only takes two guys, rather than two guys that must each play a specific position. The old Spurs had a 4 and a 5, the new Spurs have a 1 and a 4.5, the old Lakers had a 2 and a 5, the new Lakers have a 2 and a 4, the Celtics had a 3 and a 4, etc. I was challenging the notion that a 1 or 2 was strictly necessary.

Let me put it this way. Our backcourt sucks. I think our chances would be better if our backcourt didn't suck.

That said, having a scoring guard around would be nice, absolutely. But why must he be a 1 or a 2? Why is he more effective then an elite scoring 3 or 5 with Dirk?

How many "elite scoring" centers are there in the NBA? Furthermore, do you think the Mavericks have a chance of acquiring any of them?

[Lor20]

what you need... I think... is a ball handler that can score.
at the end of games you dont see the lakers run plays through fisher - they give kobe the ball.... the cavs give it to lebron - the celtics often give it to pierce, spurts have parker^. they can all drive to the basket or shoot off the dribble if there is no open man.
We dont really have anyone who can do all three. Kidd can pass buth neither shoot nor drive, josh can drive but cant pass and isnt a great shooter, terry can shoot but cant create for himself and is not a great passer or driver, barea is similar to terry in that regard.
Dirk obviously cant be the guy to bring the ball up the floor.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Lor20

what you need... I think... is a ball handler that can score.
at the end of games you dont see the lakers run plays through fisher - they give kobe the ball.... the cavs give it to lebron - the celtics often give it to pierce, spurts have parker^. they can all drive to the basket or shoot off the dribble if there is no open man.
We dont really have anyone who can do all three. Kidd can pass buth neither shoot nor drive, josh can drive but cant pass and isnt a great shooter, terry can shoot but cant create for himself and is not a great passer or driver, barea is similar to terry in that regard.
Dirk obviously cant be the guy to bring the ball up the floor.

Huge negative, when the game is on the line, no one can handle the rock and get that bucket. Considering this, it's a wonder we're on a 10 game 1 point winning streak, what the longest since 59-60? Total team effort. A block by Marion, a fadeaway by Dirk, a Damp scare, total team effort, someone's contributed in some way. Kidd had that lob to Dirk. Would definitely like to see if we can swing a deal for Iggy or Martin.

[Dirkadirkastan]

At the end of games, we're running the ball through Dirk. Not Kidd, Howard, Terry, Barea, Martin, Iguodala, or Butler. Dirk is the reason we win so many close games.

[Bathouse Bear]

I still dont think Jason Kidd will lead this team anywhere.

We got a whopping 3 points from Kidd last night and we got a whopping 8 points and 6 assists on 30% shooting through this series.

With those type of numbers im sure the rest of the NBA is shaking in their boots.

You guys have totally made me change my mind.

Jason Kidd is awesome.

[Dirkadirkastan]

You know what's really annoying? When somebody creates a pessimistic diarrhea thread and it becomes their own personal favorite thread. Then they bump it every time something goes wrong with an "I told you so" as if they get some sort of self-satisfaction in their favorite team losing.

[sefant77]

Kidd can lead you to a title.

Just dont pair him in the backcourt with player types like Barea and Terry. And reduce his minutes.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Kidd can lead you to a title.

Just dont pair him in the backcourt with player types like Barea and Terry. And reduce his minutes.

Please let's stop saying this. As pathetic as Kidd was in the playoffs, I still know he can be a great contributor to a championship team if he's rested through the regular season. But we all know he can't "Lead" a team to a title. Come on now.

[sefant77]

My fault, with leading i meant as playmaker, not as THE cornerstone beside Dirk.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Bathouse Bear does touch on something.. The Mavs could definitely use more scoring out of Kidd. You saw Kidd hurt the team offensively quite a bit when Howard was out. The Mavs were in desperate need of another scorer at times, but Kidd just couldn't help out in that area. This is one reason why JJB is valuable. Kidd just doesn't make teams pay often enough with his penetration. He can get the assist off of penetration, but he doesn't scare teams with his ability to drive and score. So yeah, Kidd has some major faults offensively. But, he is what the Mavs have got. I think the Mavs can with him, but his inability to score off of the dribble is concerning.

Bump...

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

You know what's really annoying? When somebody creates a pessimistic diarrhea thread and it becomes their own personal favorite thread. Then they bump it every time something goes wrong with an "I told you so" as if they get some sort of self-satisfaction in their favorite team losing.

Dude, he had a valid point when others thought he was out of line. Don't be a pissy loser.

[jthig32]

Would someone have a point if they started a thread stating that Dirk couldn't lead a team to the title because he doesn't play good enough defense? Because that's the type of point Bathouse was making.

Jason Kidd had a bad series, no doubt. And we're starting to have work leak out that might help explain why he did. But over the course of the season, Jason Kidd was a MAJOR driving force behind this team and their 55 wins.

You can obviously pick apart his faults and point to what he doesn't do, as you can with every player, but unless your position is that the Mavs need a top 5 PG in the NBA to compete, complaining about Jason Kidd is a waste of time. He's one of the positives on this team, not one of the problems.

[Bathouse Bear]

Jason Kidd had a bad series, no doubt. And we're starting to have work leak out that might help explain why he did.

Thats the problem right there.

Every series Jason Kidd has played in a Mavs uniform this is what we have gotten from him.

Look at his results against New Orleans, San Antonio, Denver and San Antonio and they are beyond pathetic.

You Jason Kidd fans are acting like the San Antonio series was an anomaly when I knew 9 points 6 assists on 30% shooting was all we were gonna get from this guy.......because thats all he has done in the past.

You can obviously pick apart his faults and point to what he doesn't do, as you can with every player, but unless your position is that the Mavs need a top 5 PG in the NBA to compete, complaining about Jason Kidd is a waste of time. He's one of the positives on this team, not one of the problems.

Jason Kidd is the major problem on this team. We dont need a top 5 point guard, but we do need a point guard that can play good perimeter defense, and can score by creating his own shot.

The fact that so many people just ignore every single stat and still think Kidd is good for this team is mind blowing.

I knew this team wasnt going anywhere with Jason Kidd as our point guard and to keep it simple its because he cant score and he cant play defense.

You can survive if your PG is not a huge scorer, but he has to be a non-scorer while driving to the basket which exposes the defense for your other scorers. Granted, you have to finish enough that the defense respects your drive, but you can definitely dish more then score (i.e. see Kidd's games from 10 years ago). The fundamental problem was Kidd NEVER showed any drive to the basket in this series.

Nothing against Barea or Roddy B , but the reason they looked like they were playing at such a high level was that they were the only guards consistently driving and forcing the defenses' hand which allowed them to score or open it up for others.

You cant win in the Western Conference with Jason Kidd.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Thats the problem right there.

Every series Jason Kidd has played in a Mavs uniform this is what we have gotten from him.

Look at his results against New Orleans, San Antonio, Denver and San Antonio and they are beyond pathetic.

You Jason Kidd fans are acting like the San Antonio series was an anomaly when I knew 9 points 6 assists on 30% shooting was all we were gonna get from this guy.......because thats all he has done in the past.

He shot 46% from the field and 45% from three in last year's playoffs. Kidd was good in last year's playoffs. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And Jason Kidd is a quality defender. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know anything about basketball. He does struggle with quick PG's at times, but he guards SG's very well, and his overall team defense, the flexibility he provides in being able to guard different positions, and his ball hawking combine to make his an asset defensively.

Obviously Kidd would be an even better player if he could provide more pressure offensively. But his ability to hit threes helps make up for that deficiency. Having a deficiency doesn't automatically make you a bad player. Every player has things he doesn't do well. Shawn Marion provides zero offensive pressure of any kind, but he's a big asset because of what he brings defensively. Kidd is no different.

[Murphy3]

Jason Kidd is overrated. I like Kidd, but his offensive weaknesses are amplified on this team at this point. Do I think he can be a big part of a championship team? Yes, absolutely. However, there has to be more options on the court or his weaknesses on offense are just going to continue to be magnified and his strengths will not be properly utilized.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Obviously Kidd would be an even better player if he could provide more pressure offensively. But his ability to hit threes helps make up for that deficiency. Having a deficiency doesn't automatically make you a bad player. Every player has things he doesn't do well. Shawn Marion provides zero offensive pressure of any kind, but he's a big asset because of what he brings defensively. Kidd is no different.

This is a very fundamental concept that people seem to have a lot of difficulty understanding. I've said it several times, but once you move out of that very upper tier of players (and I'm talking Lebron, Kobe...that's about it), every single player in the NBA has at least one significant weakness. I don't understand why people complain about "so and so can't do X" when he does Y and Z really, really well.

The underlying assumption here, of course, is that a PG needs to be able to regularly penetrate and score to be effective, which is absolute nonsense.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Jason Kidd is overrated. I like Kidd, but his offensive weaknesses are amplified on this team at this point. Do I think he can be a big part of a championship team? Yes, absolutely. However, there has to be more options on the court or his weaknesses on offense are just going to continue to be magnified and his strengths will not be properly utilized.

The team as a whole was broken offensively way too often in the half court. So everyone's weaknesses are magnified. If Devin Harris was on the team HIS weaknesses would be magnified because we'd spend way too much time not having anyone on the court that would knock down an open three point shot.

At least with Kidd he eases the problem by getting sub-par offensive players easy shots at times.

And I think he was a great fit defensively and could continue to be if Roddy is a major part of the rotation next year. Kidd's ability to guard SG's is a major factor in allowing players like Jet and Roddy to play SG and not get killed defensively.

I'm not saying you can't do better than Kidd at PG and I'm not trying to say he's the perfect fit for the players we have around him. But the idea that you can't win with Jason Kidd as your PG is absurd.

[Murphy3]

I concur. If he's your PG going forward, then you obviously have to do what you can to make sure his weaknesses aren't amplified on the offensive end of the court. That's all.. If you can't do that, then Kidd probably isn't a good fit. Heck, if you can't do that, then the team isn't going anywhere anyway.

[Bathouse Bear]

And Jason Kidd is a quality defender. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't know anything about basketball. He does struggle with quick PG's at times, but he guards SG's very well, and his overall team defense, the flexibility he provides in being able to guard different positions, and his ball hawking combine to make his an asset defensively.

Im the one that doesnt know what Im talking about?

Did you not see George Hill repeatedly pump fake, go uncontested to the middle of the floor and hit a 17 foot jumper.

Okay......

Jason Kidd has been murdered by the opposing point guard in every series he has played in a Mavs uniform.

Having to hide him on defense means we have to have JJB or JET guard the Tony Parkers of the world....which only weakens their legs come the 4th quarter.

How the hell has Jason Kidd made this Mavs team better?

We are at such a disadvantage every time we have to face the Chauncey Billups, Tony Parkers, Deron Williams, Chris Pauls and Steve Nashs.