Dirk vs. Kobe... the playoffs - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

Silly Mavs fans. Using some irrelevant never heard of made up formula to discredit Kobe and credit Dirk.

You'd better tell your mommie that you are using her computer...She's not going like you viewing barney the dinosaur on her system. Don't be upset that you are not intelligent enough to understand math.

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobe24

5 rings

Dirk - 0

Keep crying some more. Preparing for the offseason yet?

Last recourse from dumb*** fans who lose arguments. Sounds so spurs-like...How many have kobe won without another all-star on the team...How many finals has he taken them too? Damn trolls, waste of electrons.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Tjeg, I've have to say that you've represented yourself fairly well here. Thank you. It is a pleasure to see a fan from another team come on this site and present their thoughts and beliefs in such a capacity.

Thanks.
I have no doubt that dirk is a great player but all i'm saying is everytime kobe has a team that can win they usually win or come close.
For example after shaq left the team was poor, he demanded for a trade or better players and immediately the lakers got gasol they were in the finals and have been there ever since(no transition period). Kobe might not be better at carrying a bad team(some are very good at it like lebron) but give him a good team and they go all the way.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 09:56 PM

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

chumdawg · 04-30-2011, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

Dirk has had more than decent collections of players around him, that's for sure, even if he hasn't had a Robin type. But it's frightening to imagine a decent supporting cast plus a guy like Vince Carter in his prime.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 10:16 PM

Oh sure, he's not surrounded by 14 Wang Zhizhi's... but he's not surrounded by Pau Gasol or Shaquille O'Neal... Dirk plus a mediocre supporting cast gets you 50 wins. Dirk plus a pretty good to good supporting cast made it to the finals. Dirk plus Shaq in or near his prime plus a mediocre to decent cast gets you domination of the NBA.

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 10:20 PM

The only all-star dirk has ever played with was nashie...for way,way too short of a time. Since then nothing really.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

That's why I feel Dirk could have been greater especially with these stats you just showed but unfortunately if you take a look at other factors(2006 finals, 2007 first round) all these will always be used against him and nobody will pay attention to some of these stats and performances. He has to breakthrough and beating the defending champions is where it starts.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 10:29 PM

I'm not sure if an elite center or an elite guard is what dirk needed, imagine kobe and dirk playing together it would be has effective has kobe and gasol, because dirk is very effective in the post and kobe will attract a lot of attention away from him.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 10:31 PM

The problem is, Dirk could average 30 a game and be extremely efficient..be the best player on the court and the Mavs still have an uphill road. That's kinda the problem.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjeg

I'm not sure if an elite center or an elite guard is what dirk needed, imagine kobe and dirk playing together it would be has effective has kobe and gasol, because dirk is very effective in the post and kobe will attract a lot of attention away from him.

In my opinion..either would have been tremendous. At this point in his career, I'd probably say an elite guard. Earlier in his career, I might have leaned towards and elite center.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

The problem is, Dirk could average 30 a game and be extremely efficient..be the best player on the court and the Mavs still have an uphill road. That's kinda the problem.

i agree, like I said in the MacMahon thread the lakers have a higher margin for error which also gives kobe a higher margin for error. At the end of the day dirk's teamates have to come through for him , if not Dirk will take the blame irrespective of his performance.

nowhereman · 05-01-2011, 12:11 AM

Dirk is currently a better player and historically a better player. Not to say Kobe isn't pretty good tho. He's right up there with guys like Clyde Drexler and Dominique for one of the top 5 or so shooting guards of all time. Guy just got really lucky to get Phil, Shaq, and Pau. But we've all seen his true colors. The only list he tops is the historically overrated player list.

nowhereman · 05-01-2011, 12:12 AM

Remember when the Lakers offered the Mavs kobe for dirk after Kobe went into his diva mode, and the mavs refused?

To this day, that was the right decision.

LA24KB4L · 05-01-2011, 12:44 AM

Kobe > dirk all day.. mavs choke so much, i guess texas teams has a thing of #1 seed loosing to a #8 seed? lol.. but thats the past.. lets see how quiet this forum gets when the game will go 4-0, 4-1 Lal>dal. Pau will shut down dirk

LA24KB4L · 05-01-2011, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Last recourse from dumb*** fans who lose arguments. Sounds so spurs-like...How many have kobe won without another all-star on the team...How many finals has he taken them too? Damn trolls, waste of electrons.

Lol, no sh!t you cant win a champion without a good cast.. MJ with pippen and with alot of shooters.. just by comparing Kb to MJ means KB that great.. while dirk ? hitler?

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA24KB4L

Lol, no sh!t you cant win a champion without a good cast.. MJ with pippen and with alot of shooters.. just by comparing Kb to MJ means KB that great.. while dirk ? hitler?

Your hilarious you must do real well at stand up comedy.

BTW Smart guy Hitler was not German he was Austrian.

mavs777 · 05-01-2011, 12:56 AM

yikes laker trolls. ban em

chumdawg · 05-01-2011, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA24KB4L

Kobe > dirk all day.. mavs choke so much, i guess texas teams has a thing of #1 seed loosing to a #8 seed? lol.. but thats the past.. lets see how quiet this forum gets when the game will go 4-0, 4-1 Lal>dal. Pau will shut down dirk

Well, you're certainly not going to last here if you can't communicate more intelligibly than that. But to speak to your argument...we'll see. And I doubt we'll see you here if it doesn't go your way.

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, you're certainly not going to last here if you can't communicate more intelligibly than that. But to speak to your argument...we'll see. And I doubt we'll see you here if it doesn't go your way.

The moment that clown compared Dirk to Hitler on the bias of Dirk be German I knew he lacked intelligence. That being said I'm a terrible X & O's guy, but even I can carry on a more intelligent basketball conversation then these trolls.

mac222b · 05-01-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

The moment that clown compared Dirk to Hitler on the bias of Dirk be German I knew he lacked intelligence. That being said I'm a terrible X & O's guy, but even I can carry on a more intelligent basketball conversation then these trolls.

And on a personal note, every time you post it makes me happy because i get to eyeball the Mavs girl in your sig. Win-win!

dude1394 · 05-01-2011, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA24KB4L

Lol, no sh!t you cant win a champion without a good cast.. MJ with pippen and with alot of shooters.. just by comparing Kb to MJ means KB that great.. while dirk ? hitler?

wow...you may be the dumbest poster I've seen in 10 years or so. And that is saying a lot...

Budapest Maverick · 05-01-2011, 03:56 AM

Pau never in his life shut down Dirk, in fact, Dirk outrebounds him in their battles, has more steals, and even blocks as well. All that while averaging a whooping 5 points more than Pau. Dirk historically destroyed Gasol in their matchups, if i remember correctly even when he was with the german team. With that said, Gasol can cause us some problems, and in the last two years, he usually plays very well against us. He will be a tough cover, no doubt, but then what is Dirk?

Thespiralgoeson · 05-01-2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

I think this sums up how I feel about both players and therefore any "Kobe vs Dirk" debate.

I for one have never ever bought the notion that Kobe was in any way an overrated player. Nor have I ever bought the notion that he was in any way a selfish player who was holding his teammates back until Gasol arrived. He is without question the 2nd best player ever at his position, and for my money one of the top 10 greatest players ever at any position. I think he deserves every bit of the acclaim and praise that he gets.

That I think there is not that much of a gap between Kobe and Dirk has nothing to do with Kobe being overrated and everything to do with Dirk being one of the most monumentally underrated athletes in the history of professional sports. The fact that he's kept this team a perennial 50+ win team for the past decade despite being the only constant and not having anything close to another "star" playing next to him is an accomplishment that few others can claim. The dude is a guaranteed 50-wins. In the post-Jordan era, the only other players I would say that about are Duncan and Shaq. (One could also put Lebron in that category, but his sample size is a lot smaller, so it's a bit more difficult to tell.)

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:06 AM

Let me get this straight.

Dirk says it's all about winning it all. That nothing else matters. Before it was about making it to the play-offs. Then it was about making it out of the first round. Now it's about winning it all.

Yet you guys say that it's all about the stats. It's not about the rings. Not the one ring, the two rings, or the five.

It's the stats.

Figures.

Perennial losers.

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Let me get this straight.

Dirk says it's all about winning it all. That nothing else matters. Before it was about making it to the play-offs. Then it was about making it out of the first round. Now it's about winning it all.

Yet you guys say that it's all about the stats. It's not about the rings. Not the one ring, the two rings, or the five.

It's the stats.

Figures.

Perennial losers.

Perennial troll.

For the fans stats matter for Dirk the ring is all that matters. Name me one player in the NBA whose ultimate goal is not the ring?

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

Perennial troll.

Aww. C'mon now. That's just rude!

Is that anyway to treat guests? I made a good point, don't you think?

By the way, the fact that it was my first post leads me to question whether or not you know the meaning of the word, "perennial."

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Aww. C'mon now. That's just rude!

Is that anyway to treat guests? I made a good point, don't you think?

By the way, the fact that it was my first post leads me to question whether or not you know the meaning of the word, "perennial."

I was being sarcastic.

Look at it this way at Dirks stage of his career every year he has to have his eye on the ring.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-01-2011, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Aww. C'mon now. That's just rude!

Is that anyway to treat guests? I made a good point, don't you think?

By the way, the fact that it was my first post leads me to question whether or not you know the meaning of the word, "perennial."

If you've seen one post from a troll, you've seen them all. I'll at least give you credit for having a grasp on the English language that seems to elude most trolls. So you are a well-spoken troll, but a troll nonetheless. Eat sh*t and kill yourself, troll.

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If you've seen one post from a troll, you've seen them all. I'll at least give you credit for having a grasp on the English language that seems to elude most trolls. So you are a well-spoken troll, but a troll nonetheless. Eat sh*t and kill yourself, troll.

I have a song just came up on my iTunes that is perfect for Dirk "My Time is Now".

Budapest Maverick · 05-01-2011, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Let me get this straight.

Dirk says it's all about winning it all. That nothing else matters. Before it was about making it to the play-offs. Then it was about making it out of the first round. Now it's about winning it all.

Yet you guys say that it's all about the stats. It's not about the rings. Not the one ring, the two rings, or the five.

It's the stats.

Figures.

Perennial losers.

It's about winning it all, to him, that is all is missing from his legacy, but to compare players, you have to take a look at the advanced stats, and prime impact. Stats don't lie. Basketball is a team sport, and you need multiple all-stars to win in this league. No matter how you put it, Dirk never had that. Do you really think Dirk doesn't win playing besides Shaq? Do you really think he doesn't win with a Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Artest supporting cast? Or with a prime Parker, and Manu Ginobili, and with Bowen, one of the best perimeter defender of all-time?

Dirk never had a real low-post presence playing next to him (something a lot of people think you can't win without, Kobe couldn't to this day...), he never had a truly great coach. He never had an elite perimeter defender. He never even had a legit all-star in his prime, playing next to him. A guy who makes it every other year. Forget about superstars. Yet, every advanced stat screaming to you, that he's just as good as those high impact players in the last decade.

Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Garnett. His adjusted +- ratings, PER, Win shares, everything shows you he's up there with them (actually, Bryant is the odd man out, his prime impact is not near to those guys). So Dirk is up there, he just happens to not won a ring yet, because he simply never had the supporting cast those guys had. It's really that simple.

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If you've seen one post from a troll, you've seen them all. I'll at least give you credit for having a grasp on the English language that seems to elude most trolls. So you are a well-spoken troll, but a troll nonetheless. Eat sh*t and kill yourself, troll.

Can eating feces kill you? Huh. Never thought about that. But considering all the toxins that are in feces, it probably could. I'll take your word for it.

I don't agree that for fans, it's all about stats. I couldn't give less of a flying fuc& about stats. Considering the Lakers show virtually no respect for the regular season, it really is all about the championships. There's a reason why a city doesn't have parades for stats or the regular season. Well, at least Los Angeles doesn't. Does Dallas?

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

It's about winning it all, to him, that is all is missing from his legacy, but to compare players, you have to take a look at the advanced stats, and prime impact. Stats don't lie. Basketball is a team sport, and you need multiple all-stars to win in this league. No matter how you put it, Dirk never had that. Do you really think Dirk doesn't win playing besides Shaq? Do you really think he doesn't win with a Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Artest supporting cast? Or with a prime Parker, and Manu Ginobili, and with Bowen, one of the best perimeter defender of all-time?

Dirk never had a real low-post presence playing next to him (something a lot of people think you can't win without, Kobe couldn't to this day...), he never had a truly great coach. He never had an elite perimeter defender. He never even had a legit all-star in his prime, playing next to him. A guy who makes it every other year. Forget about superstars. Yet, every advanced stat screaming to you, that he's just as good as those high impact players in the last decade.

Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Garnett. His adjusted +- ratings, PER, Win shares, everything shows you he's up there with them (actually, Bryant is the odd man out, his prime impact is not near to those guys). So Dirk is up there, he just happens to not won a ring yet, because he simply never had the supporting cast those guys had. It's really that simple.

If what you say is true, then there's a good reason Dirk has "the stats." Because he plays with scrubs. I remember Kobe going on 40 pt. games several years ago. He even scored 81 once. Now that's a stat. You know why? Because he played with scrubs. Your GM and owner must suck for perennially surrounding a great player with scrubs.

There's that word again - perennial

Thespiralgoeson · 05-01-2011, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Can eating feces kill you? Huh. Never thought about that. But considering all the toxins that are in feces, it probably could. I'll take your word for it.

I didn't say "kill yourself by eating sh*t." I said, "eat sh*t and kill yourself." Meaning first one, then the other. First you should eat some sh*t, and then you should kill yourself.

Quote:

I don't agree that for fans, it's all about stats. I couldn't give less of a flying fuc& about stats. Considering the Lakers show virtually no respect for the regular season, it really is all about the championships. There's a reason why a city doesn't have parades for stats or the regular season. Well, at least Los Angeles doesn't. Does Dallas?

I'm sorry, I apparently missed this assertion from anyone here that it's "all about stats." Granted, I've only skimmed through this thread, but I haven't seen anyone say that.

If you can find the quote, please post it. Thanks.

Oh, and also, eat sh*t and then kill yourself, troll.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-01-2011, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Your GM and owner must suck for perennially surrounding a great player with scrubs.

No argument here. Those guys suck.

Quote:

There's that word again - perennial

F*ck off and die, troll.

(And just so you know, I'm not saying you should die by way of f*cking off. Rather, I think you should f*ck off, and I hope you die. Just being clear.)

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I didn't say "kill yourself by eating sh*t." I said, "eat sh*t and kill yourself." Meaning first one, then the other. First you should eat some sh*t, and then you should kill yourself.

I'm sorry, I apparently missed this assertion from anyone here that it's "all about stats." Granted, I've only skimmed through this thread, but I haven't seen anyone say that.

If you can find the quote, please post it. Thanks.

Oh, and also, eat sh*t and then kill yourself, troll.

So you got my point. By structuring your sentence in the manner you did, you suggested that I "eat shit and kill" myself. You might as well have said, "go play on train tracks and kill yourself."

I'd love to stick around and teach you not only how to structure your sentences, but to also read the rest of the posts. But I simply do not have the patience.

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:51 AM

I may have had a bit much to drink. But I can't help but laugh at the fact that I'm a "dark cuban."

LMAO.

I kill myself.

Hey! I'm doing as you suggest! I'm killing myself!!!

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 05:51 AM

I would hope Mavs fan's have more class then to go on a Lakers forum and talk trash about the team and their fans.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-01-2011, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

So you got my point. By structuring your sentence in the manner you did, you suggested that I "eat shit and kill" myself. You might as well have said, "go play on train tracks and kill yourself."

I'd love to stick around and teach you not only how to structure your sentences, but to also read the rest of the posts. But I simply do not have the patience.

Nor do I have the patience for people who misinterpret a grammatically correct sentence and then purport to know something about sentence structure that the rest of us don't. I sure as hell don't have the patience for trolls who post on rival teams' message boards for no other reason than to annoy the regular posters, especially when said trolls offer no kind of intelligent debate or insight of any kind.

So since neither of us has the patience for the other, our discussion should end here. But before you enter the previously unoccupied territory that is my ignore list, let me at least bid you a proper farewell.

F*ck you and your mother and your sister. If you have kids, I hope they die in a car fire. Goodbye forever, troll.

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:56 AM

Who's talking trash?

I call this a constructive dialogue.

Lakers lose a game? Then I'm talking trash.