When West and Haywood come back...

[mavs777]

Mavs will obviously have a ton more options I love Rick but it's time to stop using the Kidd/VC backcourt it doesn't work on either end. Evertime VC is on the floor (whether at 2 or 3) I think West or Roddy have to be, also would be nice if he stops shooting so jump shots. Haywood is going to be such an added pressence if you have been focusing on center defense (as I have) you can tell Ian has been beyond bad defensivly when penetration is headed his way. Also no more Odom/Dirk lineups and hopefully when they return much less Odom on the floor.

Ideal rotation
PG: Kidd 28/West 14/ Jet 6
SG: West 16/Jet 20/Roddy 12
SF: Marion 32/Vince 16
PF: Dirk 36/ Lamar 12
C: Haywood 32/Mahinmi/Wright 16

[Kante]

Like i said, most of the struggling is because West is injured. Brought so much to the table, damn.

[j0Shi]

Funny how things turn out over a season. Haywood is underappreciated all the way, because you always think of Tyson in the back of your head. West not only has played well, but allows the Mavs to use much more lineups that are favorable. Move Carter to the backup 3, relieve him and Marion of big minutes and stuff.

I disagree on JET as point though. West should entirely backup Kidd and then you have the option to adjust playing times between Terry and Roddy depending on who's playing better.

[markus1234]

Haywood is great but his health is very shaky. Minor things can stop him for days and weeks An ankle sprain, lower back, knee issue...and he might be done for a whole playoff series. Like last year vs. MIA.

He is not a quick healer, that's for sure.


ps:

Ideal rotation
PG: Kidd 20/West 24/ Jet 4
SG: West 10/Jet 28/Roddy 10
SF: Marion 32/Vince 16
PF: Dirk 36/ Wright 12
C: Haywood 32/Mahinmi/Wright 16

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Haywood is great but his health is very shaky. Minor things can stop him for days and weeks An ankle sprain, lower back, knee issue...and he might be done for a whole playoff series. Like last year vs. MIA.

He is not a quick healer, that's for sure.


ps:

Ideal rotation
PG: Kidd 20/West 24/ Jet 4
SG: West 10/Jet 28/Roddy 10
SF: Marion 32/Vince 16
PF: Dirk 36/ Wright 12
C: Haywood 32/Mahinmi/Wright 16

He's not a quick much of anything. See the lack of jump balls won. I don't know when was the last time I've seen dirk ask to touch the ball after a tip. I wonder if he will still ask for it if we win a tip, it's been so long.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Kante

Like i said, most of the struggling is because West is injured. Brought so much to the table, damn.

No he didn't. Thing is, our offense sucks all year long, no matter who plays. That's the sad reality about our offense. We were able to win games thanks to our defense, which went to absolute s**t, once Haywood was out. Our offense won't improve, unless numerous players starts to play better, and Haywood can be a more effective screener.

If you guys really think West will be a difference maker, that tells me 2 things, you didn't watch our games carefully enough when he was playing, and/or we're in a really sad state.

The guy had a handful of good games this year, and has basically the same scoring numbers (on volume, and effectiveness as well) as Roddy, virtually giving out the same assist per game PER36, with slightly more turnovers. I would also argue that Roddy played better defense this year. Now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying Roddy was great, what i'm saying West is basically giving us the same painfully average production from the guard spot, even as a PG. If you really think we're gonna be a much better team because of Delonte freakin' West, well, as i said, we're really in a sad state at the moment.

[Kante]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No he didn't. Thing is, our offense sucks all year long, no matter who plays. That's the sad reality about our offense. We were able to win games thanks to our defense, which went to absolute s**t, once Haywood was out. Our offense won't improve, unless numerous players starts to play better, and Haywood can be a more effective screener.

If you guys really think West will be a difference maker, that tells me 2 things, you didn't watch our games carefully enough when he was playing, and/or we're in a really sad state.

The guy had a handful of good games this year, and has basically the same scoring numbers (on volume, and effectiveness as well) as Roddy, virtually giving out the same assist per game PER36, with slightly more turnovers. I would also argue that Roddy played better defense this year. Now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying Roddy was great, what i'm saying West is basically giving us the same painfully average production from the guard spot, even as a PG. If you really think we're gonna be a much better team because of Delonte freakin' West, well, as i said, we're really in a sad state at the moment.

The rotations were better. He coverd the quick PG's = Marion does not have to = More energy on offense. He did score the ball pretty well, assuming the overall offense is/was not the best.

He started and allowed Carter to back up Marion, so yes, i think the Mavs really need him!

[j0Shi]

I consider West one of these role-players from which two should have a good game per night to make us competitive. Of course that requires the core (Dirk, Terry, Kidd, Marion, Haywood) to have a good game every night. And that's not the case either.

But I think West has matched my requirements better than anyone.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by dude1394

He's not a quick much of anything. See the lack of jump balls won. I don't know when was the last time I've seen dirk ask to touch the ball after a tip. I wonder if he will still ask for it if we win a tip, it's been so long.

Have we even won a jump ball this season? I really don't think we have.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No he didn't. Thing is, our offense sucks all year long, no matter who plays.

West was OK, but Dirk played really bad, that's why we sucked on offense. Now Dirk is finally "Dirk".

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by LSMF

Have we even won a jump ball this season? I really don't think we have.

I pay pretty close attention. I remember one in the arena. Our little section actually raised a cheer.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

If you guys really think West will be a difference maker, that tells me 2 things, you didn't watch our games carefully enough when he was playing, and/or we're in a really sad state.

We're 4-9 since Delonte (our ONLY PG aside from Kidd) went down with his injury...

Define "difference-maker."

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Underdog

We're 4-9 since Delonte (our ONLY PG aside from Kidd) went down with his injury...

Define "difference-maker."

You're obviously not saying we lost those games, because Delonte wasn't playing, do you? Also, i would be careful about that PG-label. Delonte West is a PG-sized combo guard. If he's a point guard, then Roddy, and JET are point guards as well. Just look at West's PER36 assist numbers in his career, and his pedestrian assist per turnover ratio.

Delonte is as combo, as a player can be. JET actually had seasons where he averaged 8 assists. Stats say West is combo, eye test says the same. But let's forget that for a moment, what i wanna ask, why do you think he's such a difference maker for us? You certainly don't think Roddy is a difference maker, because he's not. Yet, he gives us virtually the same production than West, almost the same assist numbers, same scoring efficiency, while scoring a little more, with a little less turnovers.

And i could argue, he's playing better defense, and has probably a higher PER. Again, this is not so much about Roddy, but the fact that you guys are waiting for West like he's some kind of savior, when in reality, he doesn't give us anything this year Roddy or JET can't give. Which is... Pretty average. Our rotations can improve, yes, we get back our depth, but individually, West aren't gonna make us better. Haywood is just so much more important for this team.

[j0Shi]

The point about West is clearly that he allows them to play lineups that have worked well so far this season. He changes the whole dynamic of the rotation for the better.

The discussions are always the same. Take JJB, Roddy, West, who have always and will always be criticized, because they can't run the team like a true point (on this board, it's pretty much summed up with "nobody besides Kidd can get the ball to Dirk").

But we had success with a score-first backup last year, so what? We don't need a "true" backup point.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

You're obviously not saying we lost those games, because Delonte wasn't playing, do you? Also, i would be careful about that PG-label. Delonte West is a PG-sized combo guard. If he's a point guard, then Roddy, and JET are point guards as well. Just look at West's PER36 assist numbers in his career, and his pedestrian assist per turnover ratio.

In this case, PG = "guy who can run an offense." Terry can't, Roddy can't, DoJo can't. West is the only guy aside from Kidd who can, and that's become painfully obvious with our lack of ball movement in the last couple weeks.

Also, there's the issue of rotations that jOShi brings up in the above post.

If you don't think West is a difference-maker on this team, then explain to me why we went from 19-11 with him to an overall record of 23-20 without him...

[adonis]

West and Haywood's main contributions are defense. Our defense has been atrocious without the two and that's the reason we're 2-8.

[Budapest Maverick]

What statistical evidence do you have, that shows me West can run our offense any better than others not named Kidd? Because i don't think there is any that would reflect that (or at least i didn't run into any, and i'm kind of a stat geek), but my problem is, that my eyes also don't tell me that. And i watched all of our games, minus the one last night. One more thing, uhm, Kidd is playing!?

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by adonis

West and Haywood's main contributions are defense. Our defense has been atrocious without the two and that's the reason we're 2-8.

No, Haywood's missing presence what made our defense fold (and team chemistry+schedule) anything West does on the defensive end, Roddy can do just as well, joshi keep giving you guys the proof of that, if your eyes wouldn't tell you that. Roddy is great on defense this year.

[markus1234]

Opponents respect/fear D.West. Guys like Dojo or Roddy look like kids in a man's game. Too much softness and inexperience.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Opponents respect/fear D.West. Guys like Dojo or Roddy look like kids in a man's game. Too much softness and inexperience.

1) They are kids

2) Dojo isn't soft, inexperienced clearly... but not soft. I think he has talent, he just needs to lern to shoot the 3 ball better.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

1) They are kids

2) Dojo isn't soft, inexperienced clearly... but not soft. I think he has talent, he just needs to lern to shoot the ball better.

second part is fixed

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

In this case, PG = "guy who can run an offense." Terry can't, Roddy can't, DoJo can't. West is the only guy aside from Kidd who can, and that's become painfully obvious with our lack of ball movement in the last couple

I could not agree more. Our backup point without jjb/delonte is atrocious.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, Haywood's missing presence what made our defense fold (and team chemistry+schedule) anything West does on the defensive end, Roddy can do just as well, joshi keep giving you guys the proof of that, if your eyes wouldn't tell you that. Roddy is great on defense this year.

Without West more minutes go to VC, Jet, Kidd, and Dojo who are all not as good defenders as west are.

[b_o_r]

LOL @ BG How you going to make an edit and not correct his spelling?


West, Haywood, Brandan are sorely missed, but there will have to be additional issues that will have to be addressed to get the boat righted.

1. Terry needs to get it together. He is playing as an individual right now. I know he is worried about his contract but Tyson and JJB played with uncertain futures last year and they had career years. It wasn't like the Mavs didn't make some sort of offer to those two. Right now, he is playing himself out of the Mavs even offering him a contract.

2. Carter is bench material. He more productive as a spot up shooter and anchoring the 2nd team.

3. Marion's offense is sorely needed at this point but its being wasted guarding speedy PG's. DJ/Roddy/West have to start at the SG.

4. Does the team want Lamar Odom on the court?

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

1) They are ? kids

2) Dojo isn't soft, inexperienced clearly... but not soft. I think he has talent, he just needs to lern to shoot the 3 ball better.

1st part fixed.

Roddy Beaubois 24. February 1988

Russell Westbrook 12. November 1988

Kevin Wesley Love 7. September 1988

...and so on...and so on.

ps: and yes, DoJo is soft. A big soft baby. Opponents could not care less about him. Softness is also lack of consistency, low BBIQ and average skills. It is not only about muscles... Do Jo reminds me of Brandon Bass...



You do not win anything with those type of players...

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by markus1234

1st part fixed.

Roddy Beaubois 24. February 1988

Russell Westbrook 12. November 1988

Kevin Wesley Love 7. September 1988

...and so on...and so on.

ps: and yes, DoJo is soft. A big soft baby. Opponents could not care less about him. Softness is also lack of consistency, low BBIQ and average skills. It is not only about muscles... Do Jo reminds me of Brandon Bass...



You do not win anything with those type of players...

I don't think you can be more clueless about basketball.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by mavs777

I don't think you can be more clueless about basketball.

I do not think you can make more pointless comments.

[adonis]

Originally Posted by markus1234

I do not think you can make more pointless comments.

+1

[CadBane]

Underdog bringing the goods.

West is so crucial to this team for a litany of reasons.

1. Only guy that can and will consistently get to the rim, particularly off the Dirk screen. (No, Roddy can't/won't).

2. Our best perimeter defender. Allows Kidd to stay off of quick PGs (like Isaiah Thomas...)

3. A respectable three-point shooter so the spacing isn't shit and opposing teams won't pack the paint so hard.

4. It cuts into Terry and Roddy's minutes at the 1, where Delonte is the better option.

5. Arguably our best ball-handler.

6. It cuts into Roddy's minutes period. (Yes, I consider this a good thing.)

7. It should put VC back on the bench where he might actually make a shot again.

So yeah, I can't wait to have West back.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by CadBane

1. Only guy that can and will consistently get to the rim, particularly off the Dirk screen. (No, Roddy can't/won't).

Delonte West attempts at the rim in 2011/12 : 57 attempts 33 made field goals, 57% completion rate.

Roddy attempts at the rim in 2011/2012 : 53 attempts, 37 made field goals, 69% completion rate.

They're almost the same in minutes. The truth is, both shooting much more jumpers than they should. Can we finally put this myth to rest?

Originally Posted by CadBane

2. Our best perimeter defender. Allows Kidd to stay off of quick PGs (like Isaiah Thomas...)

Well, he is a good defender, if i remember correctly though, Roddy's defensive stats are even better this year, including pick&roll defense, but yes, West can certainly help in that department.

Originally Posted by CadBane

3. A respectable three-point shooter so the spacing isn't shit and opposing teams won't pack the paint so hard.

West is shooting 32% from deep this year. That's really average, he's right there with Terry, and Roddy in that department this year, so why are they gonna suddenly pressure him? Why are we going to play better with him because of his 3-point shot, when he's putting up the same average numbers from deep, like every other guards on the roster?

Originally Posted by CadBane

4. It cuts into Terry and Roddy's minutes at the 1, where Delonte is the better option.

Again, he's virtually putting up the same assist/to ratio than Roddy, very pedestrian numbers from both, they're not really PG's. Which isn't a problem imo, but you expect them to play pure point. They're both combo guards. They won't do it. You know Roddy won't, you should expect the same thing from West.

Originally Posted by CadBane

5. Arguably our best ball-handler.

Doesn't really do anything with it, even if true, as proved above, doesn't really attack the rim much, doesn't really assist much from penetration plays, inconsistent pull-up shooter, again, what will he give us on the attack? In reality, not science-fiction, guys.

Originally Posted by CadBane

6. It cuts into Roddy's minutes period. (Yes, I consider this a good thing.)

You consider that a good thing, because you overrate West's season, and clearly have no idea what you're talking about in this subject. In reality, West is just as average this year, as Roddy, and JET.

Originally Posted by CadBane

7. It should put VC back on the bench where he might actually make a shot again.

Why do we have to wait for him to come back to do that?

Originally Posted by CadBane

So yeah, I can't wait to have West back.

So no, you're wrong.

[markus1234]

West plays against starters, Roddy played lots of garbage time this season where he could pad his stats. Makes no sense to compare their numbers. Roddy ain't that good, really.

Of course West is far from perfect. He needs to learn how to pass the ball to Dirk and he should take high % shots only. There is too much A.Iverson in his game for my taste...

Ball movement made us strong last year, and this year (older guys) we need it even more.

[j0Shi]

Why are you talking West vs. Roddy when the real topic is Roddy vs. Terry

[CadBane]

I'm wrong that having West back will help our team? What a moron.

[4DN1]

It's disappointing year after year to see Haywood still out there for the Mavs when I know there's a chance to get someone a little better out of a trade with him. He costs way more than he should and he's extremely sloppy and just simply does not have his head in the game a lot of the time. If they continue to work with Mahinmi I'll go as far as saying he'd be a better starter.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by markus1234

West plays against starters, Roddy played lots of garbage time this season where he could pad his stats. Makes no sense to compare their numbers. Roddy ain't that good, really.

Of course West is far from perfect. He needs to learn how to pass the ball to Dirk and he should take high % shots only. There is too much A.Iverson in his game for my taste...

It's astonishing how many dumb things you said this weekend, you are on fire. Needless to say, you're wrong. first of all, West started 9 games on the bench this year, on top of that Roddy comes in against starters in first quarter around the 8 minute mark, and again, plays mostly against starters in the beginning of the second half, barely plays in the fourth, when everyone healthy, we also didn't really blew out much team this year, when would he pad his stats?

Also, if those are his padded (?) stats, that's really sad. Again, my argument is not about Roddy being better than West. My question, why would you think he's gonna make a difference for us, when he's just as average as Roddy this year? They're not horrible, but they're pretty average. Our improvement won't come from either, but it certainly won't come from West. If it will happen, it will be a team effort, JET improving, West improving, Roddy improving, Ian getting back to form, Haywood comes back, and producing (that's the most important, actually).

[grndmstr_c]

One thing about Delonte. My guess is that Kidd, JET, Marion and Dirk all simply have an easier time finding their comfort zones when Delonte's out there than when Booby's out there. It's nothing to do with who shoots or handles better. It's just veteran know-how and decisiveness. I don't know if this team will ultimately be able to get over the damage that the lockout, the championship hangover, and Lamar Odom have wrought, but I do think that the resiliency and cohesiveness will benefit measurably from West's return.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by 4DN1

It's disappointing year after year to see Haywood still out there for the Mavs when I know there's a chance to get someone a little better out of a trade with him. He costs way more than he should and he's extremely sloppy and just simply does not have his head in the game a lot of the time. If they continue to work with Mahinmi I'll go as far as saying he'd be a better starter.

Fail.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by CadBane

I'm wrong that having West back will help our team? What a fucking moron.

I take that as a compliment from you. No, your reasons why you want him back, are what wrong. Chances are, he won't give us penetration, and he won't give us consistent outside shooting. But he will give us depth, and will give us defense, the problem? The guy he's gonna knock out of the rotation (Roddy) is virtually giving us the very same production. Why would we become better then? Tell me.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by 4DN1

It's disappointing year after year to see Haywood still out there for the Mavs when I know there's a chance to get someone a little better out of a trade with him. He costs way more than he should and he's extremely sloppy and just simply does not have his head in the game a lot of the time. If they continue to work with Mahinmi I'll go as far as saying he'd be a better starter.

Mahinmi has a pretty long way to go before he's a starting center. Probably another three years and that is assuming he works hard and beefs up some more.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Why are you talking West vs. Roddy when the real topic is Roddy vs. Terry

Roddy versus terry is no contest, roddy fails.