Mavs 87 Hawks 95 (UGH UGH UGH) - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

thurst0509 · 03-20-2009, 11:55 AM

Those refs were atrocious last night and Dirk was absolutely right when he got the T for screaming "And 1" at the ref. I rewinded and watched it in slow motion and Evans fouled Dirk at least three times on that play. He clearly pushed Dirk in the back with two hands, TWICE, and then hacked him on the arm during the shot.

And I don't care what anyone says with regard to our offensive attack in the first half not being aggressive enough to earn freethrows. With Dirk's offensive skill and the difficulty that poses to defenses, there's no way the Hawks committed ZERO shooting fouls in the first half. That is an absolute embarrassment to the ref squad to allow the Hawks to shoot so many more freethrows for such a long stretch of the game.

I know the refs aren't the reason the team lost and that they could have taken the game with some smarter play and better shooting down the stretch, but jeez it is hard to watch.

ghazi · 03-20-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

This team is full of one dimensional players who don't even do that one thing good. In the draft thread I recommended looking at a guy like Stephen Curry in the draft if he's leaving and someone told me this team is full of shooters. Not in my eyes. Not outside of Dirk and JET and JET can't even hit 3's like he use to.

Hawks are not contenders...

BGMaverick9 · 03-20-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Does this team have a Jamison on it right now to even trade though? I think the difference between now and 2003 is we had trade value. A lot of it. Right now? Josh? Maybe? Jet?

Stack, Josh, Damp and borderline with Jet but Jet will probably remain.
That's a lot of money/contracts that can be shed for teams that want to get under the cap or just shed salary. The thing now is it might not necessarily have to be a Jamison-caliber player, just Jamison-caliber money.

Then you could add S&T options with Bass, Carroll and he decreasing salary can be involved in a deal as well.

Dtownsfinest · 03-20-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Hawks are not contenders...

Why not? They took the NBA champions to 7 games last season. They're not favorites to win but IMO when you're in the 1-8th spot in your conference you're a contender. That includes the Mavs even if they see the Lakers in the 1st round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Stack, Josh, Damp and borderline with Jet but Jet will probably remain.
That's a lot of money/contracts that can be shed for teams that want to get under the cap or just shed salary. The thing now is it might not necessarily have to be a Jamison-caliber player, just Jamison-caliber money.

Then you could add S&T options with Bass, Carroll and he decreasing salary can be involved in a deal as well.

Point taken but aside from Pau Gasol last year what has sign and trades ever brought a team in return? Doesn't it just bring you back guys in return who are overpriced, underachievers who their current team doesn't want?

ghazi · 03-20-2009, 12:50 PM

Fair, even though that's a very generous use of word "contender".

As far as contenders to win it all, they aren't.

Sportstudi · 03-20-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thurst0509

Those refs were atrocious last night and Dirk was absolutely right when he got the T for screaming "And 1" at the ref. I rewinded and watched it in slow motion and Evans fouled Dirk at least three times on that play. He clearly pushed Dirk in the back with two hands, TWICE, and then hacked him on the arm during the shot.

And I don't care what anyone says with regard to our offensive attack in the first half not being aggressive enough to earn freethrows. With Dirk's offensive skill and the difficulty that poses to defenses, there's no way the Hawks committed ZERO shooting fouls in the first half. That is an absolute embarrassment to the ref squad to allow the Hawks to shoot so many more freethrows for such a long stretch of the game.

I know the refs aren't the reason the team lost and that they could have taken the game with some smarter play and better shooting down the stretch, but jeez it is hard to watch.

You're absolutely right with Dirk. It's just annoying to watch him getting shoved over and over again by the defenders without getting any call. Zero shooting fouls by the Hawks in the first half - absolutely ridicoulus.

Dtownsfinest · 03-20-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Fair, even though that's a very generous use of word "contender".

As far as contenders to win it all, they aren't.

Maybe. So you don't believe any team that enters the post season has a chance at winning it all? The chip will probably be won by the Cavs, Celtics, Magic, Spurs or Lakers but everyone has the same record going into the post season.

jthig32 · 03-20-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Does this team have a Jamison on it right now to even trade though? I think the difference between now and 2003 is we had trade value. A lot of it. Right now? Josh? Maybe? Jet?

I don't think you're remembering that trade correctly. Jamison didn't have a ton of trade value. He had a max contract and had gone through a relatively obscure season in Dallas. He wasn't the offensive player he is now because he hadn't added his three point shot yet. We did get a high pick in return for him but Stack was in the deal because Washington didn't want him.

I'm not saying he was a salary dump or anything but he wasn't some huge trade chip. I think Josh will have that level of trade value if not more, because of his salary status.

We have plenty of weapons to make trades this offseason, and our salary exceptions should be more valuable if many teams are unwilling to use them due to economy issues.

Dtownsfinest · 03-20-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think you're remembering that trade correctly. Jamison didn't have a ton of trade value. He had a max contract and had gone through a relatively obscure season in Dallas. He wasn't the offensive player he is now because he hadn't added his three point shot yet. We did get a high pick in return for him but Stack was in the deal because Washington didn't want him.

I'm not saying he was a salary dump or anything but he wasn't some huge trade chip. I think Josh will have that level of trade value if not more, because of his salary status.

We have plenty of weapons to make trades this offseason, and our salary exceptions should be more valuable if many teams are unwilling to use them due to economy issues.

I disagree. A 6th man of the year who was scoring at 50% from the field? When I heard about the Mavs getting Stack and the lottery pick I thought that was about right for a all star and that's what Jamison was. And it took Nick Van Exel to get Jamison. Van Exel had his highest trade value of his career at that time due to the post season prior. Jamison had value. His contract was a bit unpleasant but with his age, 6th man of the year, 50% from the field............I think he was more trade value then you give him credit for.

BGMaverick9 · 03-20-2009, 01:44 PM

I think the combined values of the players I mentioned will clearly make us players in the offseason. The talent we would bring should definitely improve the team, it'll just hurt further down the road with the length of the salaries. But it's keeping the window open and recharging the team.

A Bass S&T might bring you a player you mentioned Dtownsfinest, or it could just reopen the negotiating process with a team like Detroit. You might be trading Bass for a role player to fill another need on the bench.

Either way, I think the FO will FINALLY realize they've gone with the same core for WAAAAAAY too long. I really expect Josh, Damp and Stack gone and the restructure the core as just Dirk, Kidd and Jet.

jthig32 · 03-20-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I disagree. A 6th man of the year who was scoring at 50% from the field? When I heard about the Mavs getting Stack and the lottery pick I thought that was about right for a all star and that's what Jamison was. And it took Nick Van Exel to get Jamison. Van Exel had his highest trade value of his career at that time due to the post season prior. Jamison had value. His contract was a bit unpleasant but with his age, 6th man of the year, 50% from the field............I think he was more trade value then you give him credit for.

They got a lottery pick and a guy the Wizards desperately wanted to get rid of.

When we traded Jamison he was a solid offensive player who played terrible defense and had never made an all star game.

As I said before, Josh (even coming off surgery) will have as much trade value as Jamison did then because of the differences in contract situations.

tcat075 · 03-20-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

They got a lottery pick and a guy the Wizards desperately wanted to get rid of.

When we traded Jamison he was a solid offensive player who played terrible defense and had never made an all star game.

As I said before, Josh (even coming off surgery) will have as much trade value as Jamison did then because of the differences in contract situations.

jthig is onto something. Josh has a somewhat expiring contract, and that will be just as appealing to buyers as Josh himself will be.

ty · 03-20-2009, 02:39 PM

Dirk will never get the respect he deserves.

Sportstudi · 03-20-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty

Dirk will never get the respect he deserves.

One of the biggest problems for Dirk is he has the best of both worlds in terms of his game, size and skills, but that in turn gets him the worst of both worlds in terms of officiating. Perimeter players get a lot of touch foul calls. Post players have to be hammered to get a call. The undeserved problem with Dirk is he is physically a post player but he has a perimeter game. A touch foul makes a bigger difference when you are trying to score from 15 feet away. Getting hammered 2 feet away from the basket has less of an effect on a player. To say it plain and simple, Dirk is ahead of his time.

thurst0509 · 03-20-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sportstudi

One of the biggest problems for Dirk is he has the best of both worlds in terms of his game, size and skills, but that in turn gets him the worst of both worlds in terms of officiating. Perimeter players get a lot of touch foul calls. Post players have to be hammered to get a call. The undeserved problem with Dirk is he is physically a post player but he has a perimeter game. A touch foul makes a bigger difference when you are trying to score from 15 feet away. Getting hammered 2 feet away from the basket has less of an effect on a player. To say it plain and simple, Dirk is ahead of his time.

Bingo. That's always been a problem, sometimes more than others. It was a huge problem last night - the refs were calling fouls as if he was a traditional 7-footer operating near the basket.

ty · 03-20-2009, 04:19 PM

Can't believe some people here are actually worried about the Lakers because of Gasol and Bynum. One guy Dirk has torched every year he's faced him in the playoffs, and the other guy is still quite unproven in my eyes, averaging 13-8 in '08 and coming off the psychological battle of two injuries. Meh.

The only player on the Lakers that anybody here should be afraid of is Mamba Bryant. No team has an answer for that guy.

That being said, who the F cares if we play the Lakers in the first round. Sure, I'd rather play the Spurs because we own the city of San Antonio...but, eventually...you're gonna have to play the Lakers guys. Might as well get it over with. I'm going out on the limb by saying this, but I sure as hell would rather play them than NO (we're a horrible matchup against them).

On another note, why would any idiot want to miss the playoffs? This is definitely not the year that I want to break our 8 season playoff streak. Let next season worry about next season. You're a loser if you miss the playoffs.

You will find a very small percentage of NBA players that actually want to be fishing in April.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 03-20-2009, 04:25 PM

WHY IS THE THREAD TITLE HAVING A BABY/SEX?

Thespiralgoeson · 03-20-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty

Can't believe some people here are actually worried about the Lakers because of Gasol and Bynum. One guy Dirk has torched every year he's faced him in the playoffs, and the other guy is still quite unproven in my eyes, averaging 13-8 in '08 and coming off the psychological battle of two injuries. Meh.

They've only faced each other once. And Gasol was the best player on that team. With the Lakers, you could argue that he's not even the 2nd best player.

Quote:

On another note, why would any idiot want to miss the playoffs? This is definitely not the year that I want to break our 8 season playoff streak. Let next season worry about next season. You're a loser if you miss the playoffs.

Honestly, how much more of a winner are you if you're out of the first round in 5 games? Frankly, I'd rather not watch them lose.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-20-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Frankly, I'd rather not watch them lose.

I have an idea that may help you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dfeOS8FPZw

BGMaverick9 · 03-20-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

They've only faced each other once. And Gasol was the best player on that team. With the Lakers, you could argue that he's not even the 2nd best player.

Honestly, how much more of a winner are you if you're out of the first round in 5 games? Frankly, I'd rather not watch them lose.

That doesn't mean Gasol is that much better. I'm not taking just the playoffs into account with this. Based off what I remember, Damp was able to muscle up on Gasol and cause him issues, Memphis or LA. It seems like this year Gasol was able to get over a hump. Is that because he got better or Damp just stinks now?

The only two people I'd really concern myself with the Lakers if Damp can do his f'n job are obviously Kobe and then Ariza. Ariza's defense/athleticism can cause a lot of problems and give more opportunities for the Lakers to score, which is what we'd want to avoid at all costs.

Financially, I know you're probably better off getting in the playoffs opposed to not being in. I know that's not an issue to me or you...but it's still a factor.

There is simply the option of not watching if it's that big of a deal to you.

TheMaverick · 03-20-2009, 11:23 PM

ty wins.

LonghornDub · 03-21-2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walter

Well, maybe not much difference between 12 and 16 but what about the 14th pick vs no pick at all? If I'm not mistaken, the mavs gave up this years pick in the kidd trade but it's lottery protected. So 9th seed= pick, 8th seed= no pick.

Call it a loser's mentality if you like, but i'll take a late lottery pick over no pick and the right to be crushed by the lakers in 4-5 games. Besides, I don't think sacrificing 4 meaningless games in the present for a chance at adding talent for the future is all that bad a trade. Besides, losing out on talent will only prolong the losing in the future. So, isn't it possible that losing now will actually yield more wins in the next, say, 5 years than making the playoffs this year would? Thats all im saying.

Even if we dont yield a ton of talent from a late lottery pick, it would still be worth it to me to at least have a chance at making an upgrade vs having no chance, which is what would happen if we made the playoffs this year. And make no mistake, we would have a chance: Thaddeus Young, Al Thornton, Jason Thompson, and Brandon Rush all were drafted between 12 and 14 the last couple years and all of those guys would be a big help to us right now. Sure we are just as likely to end up with Yaroslav Korolev as we are Al Thornton, but at least we would have a chance at a big upgrade; who knows, maybe we get lucky.

You got to see the big picture, there is a future beyond the next couple months. So as much as people like to say that we should only be concerned with the here and now, that really only works when you have a very good chance at winning a title in the next couple years, something this team simply does not have the potential to do.

The goal is to win a championship, not win every regular season game or lose in the first round.

First, the Mavs have a pick this year.

Second, I see the big picture plenty. The big picture is that having a middle-of-the-first-round draft pick is simply not that valuable, and the chance that it turns into a franchise-caliber player is probably less than the chance that the Mavs can beat the Lakers, or any other #1-seed in any year. If you'd give up a chance--however small--to pull off an incredible first round upset for a chance at a Brandon Rush, then I can't help you.

LonghornDub · 03-21-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Honestly, how much more of a winner are you if you're out of the first round in 5 games? Frankly, I'd rather not watch them lose.

Then don't watch, bro. Nobody's going to force you. Personally, I hope you're around here with us chereing and jeering (and hopefully not watching a masscare), but if not, that's your loss.

But either way, there is a significant difference between being in the playoffs versus not, even if you get swept. If nothing else--and there's definitely a lot more to it than this--it's four more days of gut-wrenching anticipation for the die-hard fans like ourselves.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-21-2009, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Then don't watch, bro. Nobody's going to force you. Personally, I hope you're around here with us chereing and jeering (and hopefully not watching a masscare), but if not, that's your loss.

Don't be a smartass. How about this; I'd rather they not suffer through another first round ass-kicking. I don't have it in me not to watch the Mavs; even when I know they have no chance.

Quote:

But either way, there is a significant difference between being in the playoffs versus not, even if you get swept.

Is there? Frankly I don't see much of one.

horse900703 · 03-21-2009, 07:38 AM

disappointed~

TheMaverick · 03-21-2009, 09:50 AM

I rather watch some playoff games than go fishing.

LonghornDub · 03-21-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Don't be a smartass. How about this; I'd rather they not suffer through another first round ass-kicking. I don't have it in me not to watch the Mavs; even when I know they have no chance.

I'm not being a smartass. I'm telling you: I hope you're around, but if you aren't comfortable with the significant possibility of watching them lose, then don't watch. Don't sit there and hope that they don't make it because you don't want to deal with the disappointment.

Quote:

Is there? Frankly I don't see much of one.

Yes, there is. Ask any athlete--well, any athlete who actually cares about his team--whether he'd rather be in the postseason and get killed in the first game, or not be there at all. Go ask the members of the 15 and 16 seeds in the NCAA Tourney whether they would have preferred a spot in the NIT, where they might have had a chance of advancing a few rounds, versus getting decimated by UNC, UConn, et al in the first round. It's an easy choice every time.

There's a reason the NBA gives out lottery picks to the teams that aren't in the playoffs. It's a device to try and create parity in the league over time, and it's meant to give the organization and the fans some sort of excitement because they didn't get to enjoy the excitement of the playoffs.. A lottery pick is a consolation prize, not a goal.

Until the NBA starts giving out lottery picks to teams that get swept in the first round, your argument that there's not much difference has no support in the way the system is actually run.

Robillion · 03-21-2009, 12:41 PM

If I could predict the future 100% of us losing in the first round easily then I would rather go fishing for the lottery. BUT this is basketball and there is ALWAYS that chance that your team can get hot at the end and win a series then carry that momentum forward. Nothing is ever already decided 100% in basketball IMO. (well besides the last time we went to the finals)

dude1394 · 03-21-2009, 12:57 PM

I was so happy to see jet NOT taking nothing but 3pointers. When he falls into that trap he becomes very,very pedestrian..no matter how many he's hitting.

He doesn't get to the line and he doesn't kick the ball out. He's the best we have at getting into the lane and making a shot...

Thespiralgoeson · 03-21-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not being a smartass. I'm telling you: I hope you're around, but if you aren't comfortable with the significant possibility of watching them lose, then don't watch. Don't sit there and hope that they don't make it because you don't want to deal with the disappointment.

Too late. That's just the way it is. I'd rather Dirk rest his body and look forward to next season than take punishment for no reason. At this point playing the Lakers is practically a formality. That being said, stop telling me how I should practice my fanhood. "If you don't like, then don't watch..." That's a nice way of saying "go to hell." I don't appreciate it.

Quote:

Yes, there is. Ask any athlete--well, any athlete who actually cares about his team--whether he'd rather be in the postseason and get killed in the first game, or not be there at all. Go ask the members of the 15 and 16 seeds in the NCAA Tourney whether they would have preferred a spot in the NIT, where they might have had a chance of advancing a few rounds, versus getting decimated by UNC, UConn, et al in the first round. It's an easy choice every time.

I'm not an athlete, I'm a fan. And I don't see much of a difference. For a young team that's making it for the first time, yeah, it's huge. But for a team that was a title contender just a couple of seasons ago, a team that is still under the delusion that it can compete, nah, I'd rather them be put out of their misery than suffer another beatdown.

Quote:

There's a reason the NBA gives out lottery picks to the teams that aren't in the playoffs. It's a device to try and create parity in the league over time, and it's meant to give the organization and the fans some sort of excitement because they didn't get to enjoy the excitement of the playoffs.. A lottery pick is a consolation prize, not a goal.

Until the NBA starts giving out lottery picks to teams that get swept in the first round, your argument that there's not much difference has no support in the way the system is actually run.

All the more reason for me to want them NOT to make the playoffs...

Dirkadirkastan · 03-21-2009, 05:29 PM

All right, then. Go to hell, thespiralgoeson.

AxdemxO · 03-21-2009, 05:44 PM

Next season is next season and wer still in this season. So whoever said it ir right. If you dont like whts going on and cant stand it and cant support the team the way they are rite now. The take a ll vacation and see ya next season. The Mavs are still in this thing whether you like it or not, and am sure Dirk and the rest of the players dont have the same attitude about it as you : )

GO MAVS

Zki41 · 03-21-2009, 05:56 PM

Golden State was a #8 seed in 2006-2007. I think that's all the proof you need that making the playoffs as an eighth seed is far better than making the lottery ... especially considering this is a very weak draft class, the difference between #14 and where we land won't be that huge. The important thing is, if we do make the playoffs, we have a chance. If we get stomped, that sends a message to our front office that moves need to be made.

BGMaverick9 · 03-21-2009, 08:47 PM

How would you feel though if the team was making sure they didn't wanna get in the playoffs just to get some rest because they already felt defeated and said "we don't have a chance to win." They just go ahead and lay down, would that make you feel any better?

twistaeffect2004 · 03-21-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

All right, then. Go to hell, thespiralgoeson.

Harsh.

God forbid some of us don't have our pom-poms handy.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-21-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

Harsh.

God forbid some of us don't have our pom-poms handy.

If he doesn't want it the nice way, maybe he'll appreciate the direct way. That's all.