Let's add up the dirk votes - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 04-18-2006, 10:57 PM

It would be one thing if his numbers just jumped drastically once Nash arrived. But, they didn't. Yes, his shooting percentage is off the chart this season, but in his first year with Nash, it wasn't much higher than his career average. Plus, all of his other numbers are comparable with what he's done in other seasons.

His rebounding is up, but I don't see how anyone could attribute that to Nash. That is the major difference between Marion's numbers since Nash has arrived compared to before Nash arrived other than the shooting percentage this season.

chumdawg · 04-18-2006, 11:05 PM

Hey, nobody ever said Marion was a scrub. He's a hell of a player. Hell of a player.

Murph said that Nash should be discredited because Marion is as good as he is. That, I do not understand. That makes no sense to me, on any level that I can even imagine. You yourself seemed to suggest that Nash may have been a reason why Marion, a tremendous player by all accounts even without Nash, got better with him. Do you realize how much that is saying? Who could come to the Mavericks and make Dirk better than he is now?

I just don't get it--and probably never will--how playing with someone great somehow makes you less, or less valuable, a player. You are what you are. You have the value that you have. Hell, if you play alongside a better player, if you can simply keep him from sliding you are doing a tremendous job, a job above and beyond your talents. And if you can actually IMPROVE that player? Wow. Then you are truly valuable indeed.

To sum up, an exercise for thought: Who else could take a tremendous talent like Marion and make him even better? Kobe? Dirk? LeBron? And further, who could do it without sacrificing his own production? Kobe? Dirk? LeBron?

dude1394 · 04-18-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

To sum up, an exercise for thought: Who else could take a tremendous talent like Marion and make him even better? Kobe? Dirk? LeBron? And further, who could do it without sacrificing his own production? Kobe? Dirk? LeBron?

Yes I imagine all of those could do that. kobe wouldn't however.

orangedays · 04-18-2006, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

To sum up, an exercise for thought: Who else could take a tremendous talent like Marion and make him even better? Kobe? Dirk? LeBron? And further, who could do it without sacrificing his own production? Kobe? Dirk? LeBron?

To be fair, you have to consider that Kobe, Dirk, and LeBron are not point guards. Their primary role on a team is to score - Nash's primary role on a team is to distribute - so it begs the question to ask, "who could make Marion better without sacrificing production?" when Nash's "production" is measured, in large part, by his ability to give Marion opportunities to score.

And one player I would venture is Jason Kidd. I see Shawn Marion as a Kenyon Martin-type player, only better. A finisher. Put a premier, pass-first point guard on a team with Marion and he will be able to put up gaudy numbers (keeping in mind that Starbury is characterized by neither of those terms).

chumdawg · 04-18-2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

To be fair, you have to consider that Kobe, Dirk, and LeBron are not point guards. Their primary role on a team is to score - Nash's primary role on a team is to distribute - so it begs the question to ask, "who could make Marion better without sacrificing production?" when Nash's "production" is measured, in large part, by his ability to give Marion opportunities to score.

And one player I would venture is Jason Kidd. I see Shawn Marion as a Kenyon Martin-type player, only better. A finisher. Put a premier, pass-first point guard on a team with Marion and he will be able to put up gaudy numbers (keeping in mind that Starbury is characterized by neither of those terms).

Indeed it's true. And it's why they say that point guards and centers are the most valuable players in the league. So, if you will, those positions bring a built-in advantage when it comes to the MVP race (at a minimum).

grndmstr_c · 04-18-2006, 11:29 PM

Shoot, all the defensive attention Dirk draws...I'm pretty sure Marion would thrive playing alongsde Dirk. He'd probably love the hell out of it, too. Given how much everyone seems to love to overlook/dismiss Dirk's greatness, Shawn would probably get some more of that media love he's always whining about not getting over there in Phoenix.

chumdawg · 04-18-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Shoot, all the defensive attention Dirk draws...I'm pretty sure Marion would thrive playing alongsde Dirk. He'd probably love the hell out of it, too. Given how much everyone seems to love to overlook/dismiss Dirk's greatness, Shawn would probably get some more of that media love he's always whining about not getting over there in Phoenix.

Ahhh...shades of the age-old debate: Would you rather have Nash, Finley, and Dirk...or Kidd, Marion, and Dirk?

Hm.

Thespiralgoeson · 04-18-2006, 11:39 PM

Chum, I think all of the players you mentioned, and many more could "make Marion better" in terms of drawing the defense and giving him looks. By the definition of what "making your teammates better" seems to be, then yes, Marion would greatly benefit by playing next to Dirk, LeBron, Kobe, Iverson, Wade, Shaq, Duncan, Pierce, Arenas, McGrady, Yao, or any number of players that opposing defenses have to make game-plans for.

But frankly, and I've stated this before, I just believe the concept of "making your teammates better" is ridiculous to begin with. It's a myth, one of the many myths that the sports media thrusts upon us. It belongs in the same garbage heap as "Defense wins championships."

Thespiralgoeson · 04-18-2006, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Ahhh...shades of the age-old debate: Would you rather have Nash, Finley, and Dirk...or Kidd, Marion, and Dirk?

Hm.

Are we talking about Nash, Kidd, Finley, and Marion now or in 2003?

I'd probably go with Kidd and Marion. Since neither of them are reliable shooters, you'd need a 2 that can shoot the three.

chumdawg · 04-18-2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Chum, I think all of the players you mentioned, and many more could "make Marion better" in terms of drawing the defense and giving him looks. By the definition of what "making your teammates better" seems to be, then yes, Marion would greatly benefit by playing next to Dirk, LeBron, Kobe, Iverson, Wade, Shaq, Duncan, Pierce, Arenas, McGrady, Yao, or any number of players that opposing defenses have to make game-plans for.

But frankly, and I've stated this before, I just believe the concept of "making your teammates better" is ridiculous to begin with. It's a myth, one of the many myths that the sports media thrusts upon us. It belongs in the same garbage heap as "Defense wins championships."

Oh, thank God. Finally something we can agree in whole about.

Five-ofan · 04-19-2006, 11:09 AM

BTW dirk has an outside shot of catching lebron for hollingers effenciency rating title. Lebron is at 28.15 and dirk is at 28.14.

mary · 04-19-2006, 01:15 PM

It looks like Dupree needs to be slotted as a third place vote instead of first. I picked this up off of lakerstalk.net

Quote:

Michael (Ohio): DD, Tell me when you turn in your MVP vote tomorrow it will say "King" James on it! -Michael
David DuPree: Yes, it will -- in the No. 2 spot behind Kobe. My order: (1) Bryant; (2) James; (3) Nowitzki; (4) Nash; (5) Billups.

http://transcripts.usatoday.com/Chat...ipt.aspx?c=691

Milles · 04-19-2006, 01:46 PM

Dupre, said in one of his earlier talks, he does not have a vote, he was just responding to the question.

Who knows, maybe he now has one.

sike · 04-19-2006, 02:25 PM

just from what I've seen...looks like its Bron for MVP....

nowitzki_prophecy · 04-19-2006, 03:36 PM

If you're going for a LeBron type of choice,Kobe is much more suited for it.
He did exactly what LBJ did but in a much tougher conference,and i think with even less help.

orangedays · 04-19-2006, 04:00 PM

First

Steve Aschburner
Barbara Barker*
Mark Followill
Art Garcia
Bill Ingram
Frank Isola
Stan McNeal
David Moore
Eddie Sefko
Van Wade

100 pts.

Second

Percy Allen*
Bob Matthews
Sean Deveney
Pete May
Mike Monroe
Andrew Perna
Marc Stein
Ira Winderman*

56 pts.

Third

Marty Burns
Dave D'Alessandro
David DuPree
Jonathan Feigen
Israel Gutierrez

25 pts.

Fourth

Paul Coro*
Mark Montieth*
Jason Quick
Doug Smith
Sam Smith*
Sekou Smith*

18 pts.

Fifth

David Aldridge
Mike Kahn

2 pts.

Total: 201 pts.

* - Unconfirmed, slotting based on articles.
New insertions/changes bolded.

Notes: Added Sefko's #1 vote, Marc Stein listed Dirk 2nd to Nash in his Mid-Week Dime, Mike Monroe demoted Dirk to #2 behind Chauncey Billups, moved DuPree from #1 to #3.

sixeightmkw · 04-20-2006, 01:45 PM

isn't today the day they collect votes? Or do they start voting today?

jthig32 · 04-20-2006, 03:45 PM

I belive today is the deadline to have your vote in. But we won't know the results for at least another month I think.

mary · 04-20-2006, 03:47 PM

Last season it was officially announced during the second round of the playoffs, Game 1, if I'm not mistaken.

A couple of days before the game, the media was reporting that Nash had won it.

Male30Dan · 04-20-2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

First

Steve Aschburner
Barbara Barker*
Mark Followill
Art Garcia
Bill Ingram
Frank Isola
Stan McNeal
David Moore
Eddie Sefko
Van Wade

100 pts.

Second

Percy Allen*
Bob Matthews
Sean Deveney
Pete May
Mike Monroe
Andrew Perna
Marc Stein
Ira Winderman*

56 pts.

Third

Marty Burns
Dave D'Alessandro
David DuPree
Jonathan Feigen
Israel Gutierrez

25 pts.

Fourth

Paul Coro*
Mark Montieth*
Jason Quick
Doug Smith
Sam Smith*
Sekou Smith*

18 pts.

Fifth

David Aldridge
Mike Kahn

2 pts.

Total: 201 pts.

* - Unconfirmed, slotting based on articles.
New insertions/changes bolded.

Notes: Added Sefko's #1 vote, Marc Stein listed Dirk 2nd to Nash in his Mid-Week Dime, Mike Monroe demoted Dirk to #2 behind Chauncey Billups, moved DuPree from #1 to #3.

So what does this earn Dirk?

cchen39 · 04-20-2006, 05:06 PM

EJ announced his choice of MVP as following:

1. LeBron
2. Dirk
3. Nash
4. Kobe
5. Billups

You could catch the video at nba.com

V2M · 04-20-2006, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cchen39

EJ announced his choice of MVP as following:

1. LeBron
2. Dirk
3. Nash
4. Kobe
5. Billups

You could catch the video at nba.com

I'm disappointed in EJ. I thought he'd go with Dirk based on the advice from his buddies Charles & Kenny.

TheBlueVan · 04-20-2006, 05:37 PM

when do we find this out? the votes were due in today

jthig32 · 04-20-2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlueVan

when do we find this out? the votes were due in today

I think you find out sometime during the conference finals. If I remember correctly, we found out COY during our series with the Suns, and MVP was announced during last year's Conference Finals.

jthig32 · 04-20-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Last season it was officially announced during the second round of the playoffs, Game 1, if I'm not mistaken.

A couple of days before the game, the media was reporting that Nash had won it.

I thought we found out D'Antoni was coach of the year during our series.

I thought MVP was announced during the Conference Finals.

nah-vit-ski · 04-20-2006, 08:17 PM

If Dirk doesn't win Will any of you guys be EXTREMELY dissapointed or will you just get over it?

Thespiralgoeson · 04-20-2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nah-vit-ski

If Dirk doesn't win Will any of you guys be EXTREMELY dissapointed or will you just get over it?

If LeBron wins, I'll be fine. If Kobe wins, I'll be pissed, but I'll get over it. If Nash wins, then as far as I'm concerned the award is absolutely meaningless.

orangedays · 04-20-2006, 08:30 PM

I'd be pretty pissed. Not Ron-Artest-running-into-the-stands pissed, but maybe Antonio-Davis-casually-strolling-into-the-stands pissed.

Regardless, I've resigned myself to the stupidity of the national media. Dirk just isn't as much of a 'product' as the other guys. He deserves it. I know it, you know it - if they don't know it, well that's between them and the Big Guy.

mary · 04-20-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I thought we found out D'Antoni was coach of the year during our series.

I thought MVP was announced during the Conference Finals.

I seem to recall watching Dirk cheer for Nash during his mini-ceremony. I could be wrong.

Thespiralgoeson · 04-20-2006, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

I seem to recall watching Dirk cheer for Nash during his mini-ceremony. I could be wrong.

You are correct, Mary. Nash was presented with the award before game 1. I remember, because it gave me a bad feeling about the came, which proved to be not unfounded because we lost the game by 30.

dude1394 · 04-20-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nah-vit-ski

If Dirk doesn't win Will any of you guys be EXTREMELY dissapointed or will you just get over it?

I will be EXTREMELY dissappointed, but on the other hand I don't really expect much more from the dunk-a-thon that espn promotes.

There is:
- No way Steve Nash should be on the same platform as larry bird.
- No way a 4th or 7th seed team should have an MVP.

Listening to Marc Stein talking about "IF" the mavs had won the midwest division title Dirk would have won it, but because Steve did win their division makes me go nuts.

I'm surprised he didn't make the same case for Carmelo Anthony..he did win his division after all.

orangedays · 04-20-2006, 08:42 PM

The official announcement was made on May 8, 2005. Nash received his trophy on May 9, prior to Game 1 of the Dallas-Phoenix series.

EDIT: spiral beat me to it. damn.

Locked_Up_Tonight · 04-20-2006, 08:48 PM

When was the all-nba teams announced last year?

orangedays · 04-20-2006, 08:51 PM

May 18.

orangedays · 04-20-2006, 08:53 PM

A week before that (May 12) were the All-Defensive Teams and Defensive Player of the Year.

MVP (as previously mentioned) was announced May 8.

Coach of the Year was announced on May 10.

EDIT:

An interesting note, Shaq actually got more votes than Nash for All-NBA first team - 616 pts. to 606.

Nash's MVP took 1,066 pts. with 65 first-place votes. O'Neal was second with 1,032 pts and 58 first-place votes.

jthig32 · 04-20-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangedays

I'd be pretty pissed. Not Ron-Artest-running-into-the-stands pissed, but maybe Antonio-Davis-casually-strolling-into-the-stands pissed.

I hereby declare this an underrated line. Made me laugh out loud.

G-Man · 04-21-2006, 02:08 AM

Nash should lose simply because he isn't good enough to be among the rare few to win MVP more than once. To his credit, I've heard Steve make this point himself. Since 1987, only Jordan, Malone and Duncan have ever won it twice. Before them it was Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. Those guys dominated and intimidated the league. Stevie isnt even dominating the MVP talk this year. Great guy, great season, but history says it just shouldn't be.

Plus, I bet Steve would rather see his buddy Dirk win.

Thespiralgoeson · 04-21-2006, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Man

Nash should lose simply because he isn't good enough to be among the rare few to win MVP more than once. To his credit, I've heard Steve make this point himself. Since 1987, only Jordan, Malone and Duncan have ever won it twice. Before them it was Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. Those guys dominated and intimidated the league. Stevie isnt even dominating the MVP talk this year. Great guy, great season, but history says it just shouldn't be.

Plus, I bet Steve would rather see his buddy Dirk win.

No doubt. I often make the mistake of giving the impression that I dislike Nash personally or as a player. Nothing could be further from the truth. Don't get me wrong, I do hate him, but only because he's not a Maverick. Truthfully I think the guy is one of thost truly special individuals who represent everything that is good about the NBA. He's the ultimate team player, and just a real all-around nice guy.

I just think he's become overrated over the past year or so. And simultaneously, I think Dirk is as underrated as any player in the history of the league.

sike · 04-21-2006, 10:21 AM

Nash should lose because he was not the most valuable player to his team this season.

chumdawg · 04-21-2006, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Man

Nash should lose simply because he isn't good enough to be among the rare few to win MVP more than once. To his credit, I've heard Steve make this point himself. Since 1987, only Jordan, Malone and Duncan have ever won it twice. Before them it was Bird, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Russell. Those guys dominated and intimidated the league. Stevie isnt even dominating the MVP talk this year. Great guy, great season, but history says it just shouldn't be.

Plus, I bet Steve would rather see his buddy Dirk win.

If Malone is "worthy" of winning it twice, Steve Nash certainly is.