Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[Scoobay]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

The raw stat is not irrelevant.

I just looked at the career list for this metric. Marcus Camby is #5 and Carlos Boozer is #6 on the career list. Would you argue that they are the 5th and 6th best defensive rebounders since 1971?

In the 78/79 season Moses Malone grabbed 12 drp a night. His % that season was 21.9. That's below Dirks career % of 22 and Dirk has topped 21.9 nine times. Would you argue that Dirk had a better rebounding season than Moses Malones 78/79 season 9 times? Moses is #36 on this list, and I guarantee you there weren't 35 better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone.

The conclusions for some of this metrics, which is really just another way of crunching numbers to make an ESTIMATE, are not reasonable at all when you use them to start comparing who was better at what. I'm all for using metrics to add more analysis but the conclusions have to CONSISTENTLY make sense.How do you explain some of these inconsistencies?

doesn't defensive rebound rate take into account the pace of the game - if you've got games with a ton of shots going up,there's going to be more rebounds. so in that case raw numbers may not give you as much info.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Scoobay

doesn't defensive rebound rate take into account the pace of the game - if you've got games with a ton of shots going up,there's going to be more rebounds. so in that case raw numbers may not give you as much info.

Going by the description the estimate, and I stress estimate, takes the pace of the game into account. But my question is if you are using this metric to compare players and say stuff like "Dirk and Barkley were on the same level as defensive rebounders, and look at this metric as support", then don't you expect the conclusions that the metric spits out to make sense? Going down the list the conclusions don't make sense when you start comparing players. If you are saying Dirk and Barkley are on the same level based on the metric, then your conclusion would also make you say Moses Malone was only the 36th best defensive rebounder, and that Dirk had a better drb season than Moses's best drb season 9 times. Sometimes stats lie. When you use them for analysis the conclusions have to consistently make sense.

It's the same for PER, which says that David Robinson was more productive than Wilt and Kareem.

I'm interested to see how CadBane accounts for these inconsistencies. I've explained why I don't put much faith in some of these metrics. I would like to hear why some put a lot of reliance into them when some of the conclusions are clearly wrong (just from the state of using them to compare individual players).

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Going by the description the estimate, and I stress estimate, takes the pace of the game into account. But my question is if you are using this metric to compare players and say stuff like "Dirk and Barkley were on the same level as defensive rebounders, and look at this metric as support", then don't you expect the conclusions that the metric spits out to make sense? Going down the list the conclusions don't make sense when you start comparing players. If you are saying Dirk and Barkley are on the same level based on the metric, then your conclusion would also make you say Moses Malone was only the 36th best defensive rebounder, and that Dirk had a better drb season than Moses's best drb season 9 times. Sometimes stats lie. When you use them for analysis the conclusions have to consistently make sense.

It's the same for PER, which says that David Robinson was more productive than Wilt and Kareem.

I'm interested to see how CadBane accounts for these inconsistencies. I've explained why I don't put much faith in some of these metrics. I would like to hear why some put a lot of reliance into them when some of the conclusions are clearly wrong (just from the state of using them to compare individual players).

There ISN'T an inconsistency. For starters, you are BLATANTLY lying about what I said. Don't put fucking quotations around something I never said. I never said Barkley and Dirk were equal defensive rebounders, I said Barkley was a SLIGHTLY BETTER defensive rebounder...the metric AND raw stats conclude that.

Dirk's career DRB% is 22%. Barkley's is 23.7%.

Dirk's career DRPG is 7.1. Barkley's is 7.7.

Thus, Barkley's 1.3% edge = .6 in raw stats. How is that inconsistent?

As for Moses Malone, he only averaged 7.1 DRPG for his career (NBA)...the SAME number as Dirk! You love raw numbers so much, yet according to raw numbers, Dirk & Moses were equal rebounders.

Moses also has a BETTER DRB% than Dirk! 23.3% to 22%! So what exactly are you arguing? In fact, it's the METRIC stat that shows Moses as a better rebounder than Dirk and your RAW stats that show them as equal.

Man o man you are coming off foolish here.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by CadBane

There ISN'T an inconsistency. For starters, you are BLATANTLY lying about what I said. Don't put fucking quotations around something I never said. I never said Barkley and Dirk were equal defensive rebounders, I said Barkley was a SLIGHTLY BETTER defensive rebounder...the metric AND raw stats conclude that.

Dirk's career DRB% is 22%. Barkley's is 23.7%.

Dirk's career DRPG is 7.1. Barkley's is 7.7.

Thus, Barkley's 1.3% edge = .6 in raw stats. How is that inconsistent?

My apoligies on getting your statement incorrect. The cursing is not necessary though.

It's inconsistent because if you are using DRB% to conclude that Barkley is slightly better since he has a slightly better DRB%, then wouldn't you also have to conclude that 35 individuals were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone, since his DRB% has his 36th on the list? You are basically saying this is your conclusion based on the metric (they have near the same %). So wouldn't that theory hold for other comparisons, such as Moses Malone being 36th on the list?

Originally Posted by CadBane

As for Moses Malone, he only averaged 7.1 DRPG for his career (NBA)...the SAME number as Dirk! You love raw numbers so much, yet according to raw numbers, Dirk & Moses were equal rebounders.

Moses Malone played until he was 39. I have already mentioned this to you once, but when you are using numbers to compare players you have to take into account that one is currently playing and has yet to really hit their decline and one (ala Moses Malone or Karl Malone) is finished playing and their final average includes post prime years, which causes theur numbers to drop. Dirk has played 13 seasons and is 32 or 33. Go look at Malone's numbers from his first 13 years and I guarentee you his drb avg was not the same as Dirk's.

Originally Posted by CadBane

Moses also has a BETTER DRB% than Dirk! 23.3% to 22%! So what exactly are you arguing? In fact, it's the METRIC stat that shows Moses as a better rebounder than Dirk and your RAW stats that show them as equal.

I am arguing that if I use the metric in the same manner that you are using it, then the conclusions tell me that 35 people were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone. That's not an accurate conclusion. These are the types of inconsistencies that I'm referring to. The same goes for PER, which tells me that David Robinson was more productive than Kareem, Wilt and Hakeem.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

My apoligies on getting your statement incorrect. The cursing is not necessary though.

It's inconsistent because if you are using DRB% to conclude that Barkley is slightly better since he has a slightly better DRB%, then wouldn't you also have to conclude that 35 individuals were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone, since his DRB% has his 36th on the list? You are basically saying this is your conclusion based on the metric (they have near the same %). So wouldn't that theory hold for other comparisons, such as Moses Malone being 36th on the list?



Moses Malone played until he was 39. I have already mentioned this to you once, but when you are using numbers to compare players you have to take into account that one is currently playing and has yet to really hit their decline and one (ala Moses Malone or Karl Malone) is finished playing and their final average includes post prime years, which causes theur numbers to drop. Dirk has played 13 seasons and is 32 or 33. Go look at Malone's numbers from his first 13 years and I guarentee you his drb avg was not the same as Dirk's.



I am arguing that if I use the metric in the same manner that you are using it, then the conclusions tell me that 35 people were better defensive rebounders than Moses Malone. That's not an accurate conclusion. These are the types of inconsistencies that I'm referring to. The same goes for PER, which tells me that David Robinson was more productive than Kareem, Wilt and Hakeem.

What ARE you arguing?

You say that Moses' DRB% is lower because he played until he was 39...this is in part true. So why are you surprised that X amount of guys have better DRB% than him, when you already conclude that his DRB% (AND raw DRPG) is lower bc he played so late in his career?

Malone, in his PRIME had a higher DRB% than Dirk in his prime...so I'm not seeing the point of contention.

If we look at MM's PRIME, I'm guessing he is no longer 35th. He's 35th, in part, because as we've already established, his rebounding declined with age.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What ARE you arguing?

You say that Moses' DRB% is lower because he played until he was 39...this is in part true. So why are you surprised that X amount of guys have better DRB% than him, when you already conclude that his DRB% (AND raw DRPG) is lower bc he played so late in his career?

Malone, in his PRIME had a higher DRB% than Dirk in his prime...so I'm not seeing the point of contention.

If we look at MM's PRIME, I'm guessing he is no longer 35th. He's 35th, in part, because as we've already established, his rebounding declined with age.

I am not trying to argue Dirk vs Moses Malone. I am simply using Malone as an example of how the metrics conclusions have some inconsistencies, which is why I don't rely on them. In the case of Malone, he is 36th on the list. Tons of the players above him played full careers as well. There werent 35 better rebounders than Moses. Marcus Camby and Carlos Boozer are 5th and 6th on the list. They aren't the 5th and 6th best defensive rebounders that we have seen. The PER metric also has tons of these conclusions that don't make sense, such as David Robinson being above Wilt and Kareem.*

That's all I'm arguing and questioning you about. The metric is producing some results that don't make sense, as far as comparing players. And PER completely discounts defense (look at Bruce Bowens PER for example).*