Comparing Tony 2 Cal ...

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

When you compare Cal to Tony, you guys always miscount something ?

1) He's more popular than Tony, so he can bring more fans to a ball game.
Ichiro is a good example, he brings more Asians to the game.
so Safeco Field is always crowded with people and they cheer for the team,
and OTHER players try their BEST to make a GOOD impression on their fans,
and THAT help you team play BETTER,
so Cal is doing BETTER than Tony in that matter.

2) You guys said AL hurlers are braver than NL pitchers, eh ?
Do you think Roger Clemens will just stand on the mound and
let Tony get away with a single ?
Tony would have gotten drilled at his knee or head
and that could have caused a season-ending or career-ending injury.
I asked before, how many times have Tony played against AL pithers ?
Cal has been in the AL, and Tony in the NL.

3) Cal had been playing SS for the most of his career,
SS is a TOUGH position, a hot spot,
it demands such a great deal of intensity from a player both physically and mentally.
it could easily wear you down.
As you can notice, all good batters play either firstbase men or outfielders.
There's not enough catchers or shortstops who could hit well ...
so I will say ARod is better than Jr, Nomar is better than Tony.

4) In baseball, Leftie has such advantage.
Ichiro again, as far as I know, he hit about 40 IN-field hits this year.
40 is a great number, Right-Handed hitter CAN NOT hit such numbers.
If Nomar were a leftie, he would have hit over .400 last year,
and he could average over 200 hits per year !!!
He's the FIRST RIGHT-handed back2back batting champs since Joe DiMaggio.
Rightie always has a disadvantage in batting average.
Remember Cal is Right-Handed, but Tony is Leftie.

5) You guys think he hit over 3000 hits along with over 400 homers
b/c he had enough at bats ? C'mon man, do you believe he played
all those years in his BEST shape ?
NO, with his nagging injuries.
Look at Nomar, he's a bit rusty these days with the injury,
it's really HARD to hit 3000 and 400 with injuries.
Lance's overcoming the cancer is greater than his 3-peat.
Playing with injuries is greater than his 3000 and 400.
Thats why we all call both guys an IRON-man, nobody calls Tony an ironman.

6)Aren't you supposed to give more respect to ONE-handed majorleaguer ?
Why ? b/c it's really difficult to do that.
I'm sure the judge gave more points to Spud Webb in the dunk contest,
b/c he was the smallest man on that court ...
so considering all these, you gotta give Cal MORE respects
and MORE points than Tony.

YOU can't say Tony is a better player than Cal IMHO ...

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

I'm terribly sorry about the double posts, It just happened ...

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

I was so stupid to post the message at the wrong forum [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]
Is there any way to delete this post ?

[Big Boy Laroux]

wait, cal ripken only has one hand?! did i miss something? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Murphy3]

hmmm..

well, you come up with some interesting points...but, i'm gonna have to go with my original statement...
although i'd like to have both..if i had to choose one over the other..i would take tony gwynn...anyday.

[Murphy3]

and yes, i respect cal alot as a person because of his streak.. but it doesn't make me respect him much more as a ball player.. if anything, there were times when he should have set out to help hhimself get out of a slump..this would have been good for the team....but he chose to keep the streak alive..which became more important than the actual game and the actual team...to me, there's a bit of selfishness in that.... doing what's not best for the team so that you can achieve a personal record....

i look at greg maddux..he had a chance to set the major league record for most consecutive innings without a walk....but he ended his streak with complete class and dignity...by doing something that needed to be done to put his team in better position to win.
maddux was pitching and there was a runner on second base relatively late in the game...late enough to where he needed to set up the double play to try and keep any additional runs from crossing the plate.
so what did he do? he intentionally walked the batter to put runners on first and second to set up the double play.. exactly what was best for the team to have a better shot at winning the game.
he sacrificed his personal record for the good of the team.. whereas cal did the opposite at times..the streak became more important than the team itself at times....which is something i do not respect

[Murphy3]

and you can't say that nomar would have hit .400 last year if he was a lefty..there's so many things that go into hitting. fenway park is taylor made for nomar...he can sit there and knock doubles off of the shallow GreenMonster...
there are some parks with friendly right fields..but most parks have friendly left field fences...this favors the right handed hitters...

so to simply say that if nomar were a lefthanded hitter that he would have hit .400 last year cannot be done...
you're taking one thing into consideration..that's it. yes, he might have hit a bit higher if he were lefthanded...

but you cannot hold that against tony gwynn...being lefthanded.. that is rediculous.

[TheKid]

You took the words out of my mouth Murph. Holding that lefty thing against Gwynn is like saying Shaq shouldn't be the MVP because he's so big. That means nothing. Gwynn very RARELY strikes out, now don't tell me that has anything to do with him being a lefty. It has ALOT to do with him having great hand eye coordination.

Also, no one is saying Cal sucked because the guy is a hall of famer on the first ballot. However I think the reason the two was compared was because the question was thrown out there, who would you take out of the two. I would take Gwynn. In his prime, with runners in scoring position, Gwynn (if you look at the percentages) drove in runs more than not only Cal but the majority of players in both leagues during that time.

Also your theory about American League pitchers being braver than National league pitchers I disagree with. I don't think so. I think American League pitchers get more brave because they don't have to bat. So they don't care about throwing at a batter because a player on their team is going to get hit, not them. National League pitchers now, if they do something stupid, they could very well be hit with a pitch. That's why you'll see the majority of major fights in the American league. The last three years, there have been a handfull of major fights that have broken out from people throwing at batters and they have been in the American League too. That doesn't make a player more brave in my opinion.

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

"American League pitchers being braver than National league pitchers"
I said that, but I metioned it b/c several guys said about Sammy's antics
and he should get drilled and said American pitchers would be brave enough
to hit Sammy, if Sammy were in AL.
So I think it can also apply to Tony's case ...

"but most parks have friendly left field fences...
this favors the right handed hitters...",
I think that will help a Right-hand hit more homeruns than singles.
I was talking about singles not doubles or triples or dingers ...
C'mon, Lefties always have some advantages in batting average,
everyone knows that lefties has better chance to hit more singles than righties,
and that will increase your batting average ...

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

Yeah, Maddux did a great thing,
I'll tell you, I was surprised nobody metioned about Maddux's class act.
He ended his own streak for his team, that was GREAT !!!

BTW, Genie had come and gone ?
Who brought this post to this lounge forum ?

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

"Holding that lefty thing against Gwynn is
like saying Shaq shouldn't be the MVP because he's so big."
yeah ? What if Mike Finley led his team
like the way Iverson did last year ?
Won't you give him the MVP ?
I won't hesitate to do that, consider this Iverson is really SMALL,
it's really hard for a small guy like him to lead in points
and lead his team to #1 in their division !!!
So I'd rather give MVP to Allen than Shaq ...
What I'm saying is if a rightie hit 3000 hits
and a leftie hit the exact same number,
then we should give MORE respect to a Right-handed man.
and I would give MORE points if a woman made a flying dunk
in the dunk contest than anybody including MJ, VC ... that's my point.

"Also your theory about American League pitchers being braver
than National league pitchers I disagree with."
I tell ya, It was an AL pitcher Clemens who hit Piazza in his head,
NOT an NL pitcher, and made him suffer concussion(I'd say "HUGE brain damage&quot.
maybe that hit has something to do with Piazza's stats this year - AfterEffect.
I've seen many boxers and kickboxers suffering mental disorder,
unable to control their body after their retirement
because of getting lots of hits in their head before, Yes "Brain Damage".
And I watch Nomo hit Ichiro REALLY HARD, the sound of hitting his back was so loud,
Man, I thought Nomo busted Ichiro's spine !!!
I've NEVER seen Nomo hit someone really hard like that in NL.
and I saw coupla days ago Tiger's pitcher trying hit Ichiro in his head ...
Right in his head, that was really close ...
Ichiro is really hot these days, he hit about .480 with Runner In Scoring Position,
also hit nearly .500 with RISP and 2 OUTS ...
What if your team is desperate for wildcard and you face Ichiro,
would you let him hit RBI single ? No !!! Hit him in the head REALLY HARD,
and THAT way your team have better chance to sweep the series and
have a better place in the wildcard chase ...

So I'm asking you how many times Tony got hit REALLY BAD ?
How about this ? One day hit by Clemens in Tony's head,
Next day hit by Big Unit in his rib and 2 days later
hit by Pedro in his ankle in his early career ?
Do you think he could still play really well ?
I don't think he could be ALIVE ?
You know, he's not only the greatest, ALSO luckiest player ALIVE !!!

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

"there were times when he should have set out
to help himself get out of a slump ...
this would have been good for the team ..."

Murphy3, according to your theory, Andruw Jones has to take a day off for a while,
because after the All-Star break he's just hitting 187,
man, that's terrible, take a look at Livan Hernandez, he's a pitcher,
but his career batting average is 245
(Andruw's hitting ONLY 248 this year) and this year 318 ...
He hit 12 hits in just 4 games this year ... UNBELIEVABLE !!!

but you know what, Andruw Jones is the ONLY player
who's been playing every game and EVERY INNING so far this year,
what does this mean ? Is this kid trying to break Cal's record ?
Any food for thought ?

[Murphy3]

neets, you like to be a bit extreme...
maybe andruw jones does need a game off....yes, cal played at times out of selfishness to keep his streak alive...he didn't always do things for the good of the team...you don't have a streak as long as he did and not do some things out of selfishness

[NotEnuffEyesToSee]

You seem you don't understand what I was trying to say,
what I was trying to say is A. Jones is still playing
because he can play D ...
and I'm saying Cal has been playing not only to keep his streak
but also to play D for his team ...
Remember he was a Golden Glove winner,
without Omar Vizquel, he would have won more Gloves,
As a 41-year-old man, he STILL can play great D ...

I've been told "if you struggle in your offense,
try to focus on your defense much harder ...
then out of sudden, you'll be able to get out of your slump."
If you're really angry, you can take a deep breath
and that might help you feel better,
but there's ALWAYS ANOTHER to do that,
just try to do something different thing, then you forgot the anger,
and you'll feel much better soon ...

Yeah, take a day off might be a good idea to get out of your slump.
but keep playing and focusing on your D also help you out ouf the slump
and also help your team, too ...

Look at Ichiro, I know he had a terrible slump in July,
and 0 for 15 slump once but he kept playing for his team b/c he can play D.
and Suddenly he was able to get out of that and now just 2 away to hit 200 hits.

[Murphy3]

you don't get what i'm saying..that's the problem..
there were times that he played when he shouldn't have been playing because of nagging injuries that affected him offensively and defensively...were he wasn't actually helping the team..just keeping the streak alive.

it's great that you're passionate about this and all..you're just wrong...

yes, cal was a solid defensive player for most of his career..but i don't think i would ever classify him as a great fielding shortstop simply because he had little range.
yes, he would make the plays he could get to..but he had so much less range than the majority of the shortstops in MLB...he was helped out some by good positioning..but he wasn't a more effective fielder than alot of shortstops because he simply lacked range