Diop or Bradley

[bernardos70]

If you can invent a time machine to bring back a Diop aged Shawn Bradley, I'd quite like that.

[Jet Terry]

I guess the only thing some people seem understand on this board is stats. Watch the games and see who makes the bigger impact on the team. It's harder to explain "it" that Diop has over stats.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

I guess the only thing some people seem understand on this board is stats. Watch the games and see who makes the bigger impact on the team. It's harder to explain "it" that Diop has over stats.

Everyone that has commented (except you I'd wager) has "watched the games". They've seen shawn and diop and have decided their point.

Geez...I hate that phrase "watch the games" like some self-rightous little lord flaunteroy. As if you don't have to actually have any facts, logical opinions, it's OBVIOUS it you'd only watch the games and see it like "I" do.

What a self-rightous little snob.

EvilMav2....I'm waiting for the smackdown of this one too.

[Jet Terry]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Everyone that has commented (except you I'd wager) has "watched the games". They've seen shawn and diop and have decided their point.

Geez...I hate that phrase "watch the games" like some self-rightous little lord flaunteroy. As if you don't have to actually have any facts, logical opinions, it's OBVIOUS it you'd only watch the games and see it like "I" do.

What a self-rightous little snob.

EvilMav2....I'm waiting for the smackdown of this one too.

Alright everyone listen to this guy who thinks that Bradley is just as beefy as Diop. Obviously you only seem to look at is stats. Everyone did watch the games and that is why Diop is leading 34 and 19 instead of your selective memory of Shawn Bradley.

[NXperience]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

Alright everyone listen to this guy who thinks that Bradley is just as beefy as Diop. Obviously you only seem to look at is stats. Everyone did watch the games and that is why Diop is leading 34 and 19 instead of your selective memory of Shawn Bradley.

And I could bet that 3/4 of the people that voted for Diop haven't seen Bradley play in his prime ...

[Evilmav2]

Oh, just in case I forgot to say it earlier... I vote for the 10th best Shot-Blocker in NBA History! I vote for Big #44! I vote for Shawn M**** F***** Bradley! Huzzzzahh!

[Arne]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

Alright everyone listen to this guy who thinks that Bradley is just as beefy as Diop. Obviously you only seem to look at is stats. Everyone did watch the games and that is why Diop is leading 34 and 19 instead of your selective memory of Shawn Bradley.

Ok, so you agree with the fan polls last year that said that Kobe should've won the MVP?

Or did you agree with the fan poll that had "Hook" Mitchell as the best player ever to play the game?

[Jet Terry]

The fan poll wasn't the only decider but I already felt before the poll was out that my point about Diop being way ahead of the intangibles (which shows up on the court rather than stats) was why I picked him. Shawn Bradley didn't intimidate people from attacking but rather did the opposite. People attacked the basket at will on Bradley and occassionally got blocked but the dunk fest was there despite Bradley's stats.

[Evilmav2]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

The fan poll wasn't the only decider but I already felt before the poll was out that my point about Diop being way ahead of the intangibles (which shows up on the court rather than stats) was why I picked him. Shawn Bradley didn't intimidate people from attacking but rather did the opposite. People attacked the basket at will on Bradley and occassionally got blocked but the dunk fest was there despite Bradley's stats.

You know, Jet, I've given you respect a few times in the past, but now that goes down the toilet. Flush, flush away your effulgent, stinking waste you stinking Bradley hater. Also, your Mom has a very, very good mouth.

[grndmstr_c]

Damn, I have to spread around some rep before giving any more to evilmav. I wonder if negative rep would serve the purpose. Maybe I could give some to JET for presuming to play the expert on a subject about which he is obviously clueless. Those of us in the know can only hope Diop continues to develop as a player to the point where he's capable of having the kind of impact on the game that the Mantis did.

[Evilmav2]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Damn, I have to spread around some rep before giving any more to evilmav. I wonder if negative rep would serve the purpose. Maybe I could give some to JET for presuming to play the expert on a subject about which he is obviously clueless. Those of us in the know can only hope Diop continues to develop as a player to the point where he's capable of having the kind of impact on the game that the Mantis did.

That's a gosh-darned interpreting conundrum you appear to have there ...

[Jet Terry]

I'm not a Bradley hater. I just feel the mavs have a better chance of winning a championship with Diop. I rather see a skinny center than a tough center anyday if I was driving to the basket.

[NXperience]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

I'm not a Bradley hater. I just feel the mavs have a better chance of winning a championship with Diop. I rather see a skinny center than a tough center anyday if I was driving to the basket.

Put Diop in the 02/03 team and we wouldn't have done so good as we did (My opinion) . Put Bradley in this years team and wow what a Center rotation we would have. Diop is surely not the main reason we have a better chance to win it all this year (and if we have a better chance is to be shown in the playoffs)

edit:spelling

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

Alright everyone listen to this guy who thinks that Bradley is just as beefy as Diop. Obviously you only seem to look at is stats. Everyone did watch the games and that is why Diop is leading 34 and 19 instead of your selective memory of Shawn Bradley.

This is why you make me nuts. Not only do you not have anything to back up your points, you twist crap around because you don't listen (or in this case read well) and don't comprehend worth a flip. I suspect you are just childlishly stubborn.

The discussion we were having went something like this.

JT: Diop is better because he sets better picks because he's beefier.
Dude: Diop is listed at ~280, Dampier at ~265... Shawn was listed at ~280. So conclusions:

1. Diop isn't significantly "beefier" than shawn was.
2. It has nothing to do with what kind of picks he sets.
3. Dampier is less "beefy" than diop but his picks are like 10x diops.

In fact diop doesn't seem to set a very good pick in general and certainly nothing special. Damp despite being "less beefy" sets a hell of a lot better pick. Again, diop is a good backup center but he's nowhere near the player you think he is.

So we were discussing setting picks, you throw out crapola like he sets them better because he's beefier (which he isn't significantly) and then sorta, kinda try to make a point.

[Jet Terry]

I would say Diop is significantly beefier. 15 pounds more and 7 inches smaller is a big difference imo. You missed all my points if you are saying that is my only reason that I think Diop is better. How about athleticism, energy, effort enthusiasm, better man to man defender, and better at getting steals or putting pressure on the defense to force more outside shots. Amazing the difference in the game when Diop comes out and Van Horn comes in. It is like night and day for the mavs defense. I think there are 3 things that should be looked at in overall defense.
1. man to man defense- Diop is clearly better
2. Shot blocking-slight edge to Bradley
3. Defensive rebounding- Though the stats are equal the team rebounding is better since they don't have to play zone. Do you disagree with these 3 ideas on defense?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

I would say Diop is significantly beefier. 15 pounds more and 7 inches smaller is a big difference imo. You missed all my points if you are saying that is my only reason that I think Diop is better. How about athleticism, energy, effort enthusiasm, better man to man defender, and better at getting steals or putting pressure on the defense to force more outside shots. Amazing the difference in the game when Diop comes out and Van Horn comes in. It is like night and day for the mavs defense. I think there are 3 things that should be looked at in overall defense.

Now you are going to compare Diop to Van Horn! And even at that Diop isn't significantly outrebounding Keith. But heck, he's bound to be better than shawn WAS.

1. man to man defense- Diop is clearly better - I'll give you this one, but he's not great by any stretch to be honest. He's getting beat by stronger players pretty regularly.

2. Shot blocking-slight edge to Bradley - Huge edge to shawn, no contest and if you think so you are just being stubborn.

3. Defensive rebounding- Though the stats are equal the team rebounding is better since they don't have to play zone. Do you disagree with these 3 ideas on defense?

I pointed out that the teams rebounding wasn't significantly better or worse in 02-03 when the zone came in. You ignored it of course because I think it had data in it...

So no I don't agree with 2 out of the 3 points you make.

[Jet Terry]

I was putting Van Horn in there which wasn't a good example since anyone is better defensivley than him. I was making my point on how important Diop is to our defense.

[chumdawg]

I don't even need to know what years you are talking about to answer this question definitively and without hesitation.

If you could coax Shawn Bradley, today, out of his well-earned NBA retirement and away from his beloved family, I would take the terrifying, elbow-throwing, paint-protecting, shot-blocking, set-shot-making, free-throw-swhishing court monster that is big #44 anyday over the journeyman, overweight, offensively-inept, foul-trouble-challenged joke of a starting center that is Sagana Diop.

[orangedays]

On a sidenote:

Anyone else seen that NBA commercial where T-Mac is throwing it down over Shawn? If you look closely, you'll notice that Shawn (no doubt realizing he is about to receive a pleasing facial), throws out his elbow in a clear attempt to knock Tracy in the kidneys.

When Diop does that, the kid'll have my vote.

[Jet Terry]

Actually how I remember is Shawn is think he is going to block Mcgrady but realizes that Mcgrady is going to dunk and so the last second Bradley ducks but it was too late. He got owned. How often do you see that with Diop. I don't remember Diop letting anyone do that. They usually know Diop is coming and take a fade away or pump fake.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by Jet Terry

Actually how I remember is Shawn is think he is going to block Mcgrady but realizes that Mcgrady is going to dunk and so the last second Bradley ducks but it was too late.

That is just not true. Period.

[G-Man]

Bradley is the poster child of how stats deceive. Is there a stat for getting consistanly whipped by opposing centers? In Bradley's prime, the Mavs needed a center to play against David Robinson, Shaq, and those 2 old fat guys in Portland and Sacremento. Had he been good at that, the Mavs would have a couple of O'brian trophies by now. Sure he had a nice 18 footer and was solid from the free throw line. But in spite of his blocks, he gave up layups by the ton, he had horrible feet and couldn't get in good position, his help side defense was weak. Not to mention the fact that Bradley was not strong enough to guard many centers man to man. If he was in, the Mavs had to play zone. Why the heck do you think Bruce Bowen and Steve Kerr were wide open all the time? Because everyone else had to sag in to make up for Bradley, and the equally lame LaFrenz. Remember how, after Yao punked him, we had to go to Najera? Of course there are no stats to measure any of these things.

Diop, on the other hand, has quick feet, is a good help side defender and can stick with most other centers. He gives us no points, but this team doesn't need scoring from the 5.

Opposing teams watch the games and read the stats. Ever hear of anybody persuing Bradley in a trade?

Its called intangibles, boys and girls. Its the difference between stacking up stats during the regular season, and hanging banners in the post season. The stats may say Bradley was wonderful. The empy rafters at the AAC say he was the weak link.

[NXperience]

Originally Posted by G-Man

Its called intangibles, boys and girls. Its the difference between stacking up stats during the regular season, and hanging banners in the post season. The stats may say Bradley was wonderful. The empy rafters at the AAC say he was the weak link.

Or maybe the weak link was that all other defenders "sucked" more then Bradley?
(I don't think he sucked)
And even if we get a rafter this year I think it has more to do with our better overall defense, Dirk being a Top 5 player and imo the MVP of this year,our depth at position 1 to 4 and our true Center Erick Dampier.
Yes I also give Diop credit for his play he's a good fit but by no means he's great and hasn't done anything beside this season. Also he got outplayed by Dampier on a regular basis the last few games.

[dude1394]

So now Shawn is the reason the mavs haven't won a championship? It must be those intangibles that beat us, yeah.

If only we had diop in the middle we would have beaten the spurs and won a few championships. Good grief that's ridiculous.

[Five-ofan]

Jet you are a moron. Flat out thats all there is to it. BTW about the rebounding do you think maybe the reason we rebound better as a teamnow is because we have better rebounders at the 2 and 3??? Also the fact that everyone doesnt try to leak out for a fast break might help just a little. Bradley was better than diop. I like diop but this is how one person overrating a player makes other people "hate" on him. If you just say diop is a very good backup center/hustle guy then i think we all agree and say great signing but instead you compare him favorably to a player that was clearly better and we have to correct you which makes us "hate" on diop in order to do so.

[bradleywillcrushyou44]

my name says it all

[Jet Terry]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Jet you are a moron. Flat out thats all there is to it. BTW about the rebounding do you think maybe the reason we rebound better as a teamnow is because we have better rebounders at the 2 and 3??? Also the fact that everyone doesnt try to leak out for a fast break might help just a little. Bradley was better than diop. I like diop but this is how one person overrating a player makes other people "hate" on him. If you just say diop is a very good backup center/hustle guy then i think we all agree and say great signing but instead you compare him favorably to a player that was clearly better and we have to correct you which makes us "hate" on diop in order to do so.

Well you can go both ways with that stat. The team wasn't as good rebounding wise so that means Bradley's rebounding numbers are raised while Diop has people taking away some of his rebounds. Either way Diop is a better rebounder. How about that remark about how the zone defense kills our perimeter defense? Diop is actually a starter so I guessed we are doomed.

[dude1394]

How about that remark about how the zone defense kills our perimeter defense?

What about it?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

I'll take Diop for one reason and one reason only:

When Bradley is on the court, an opponent's eyes light up. They think to themselves they are going to get a dunk on the goofy white dude. They think they are going to push him around.

Sure he'll block a lot of shots but there will be a ton of guys still tring to rodeo him.

Players do not have that mentality with Diop. They want to score. But they don't necessarilly think as soon as they get in the game that they have to try and dunk on Diop.

It's all mindset.

And it's the same reason I wish Van Horn was not on this team.

[Jet Terry]

Originally Posted by dude1394

What about it?

Exactly what I wrote. Zone defense allows the perimeter shooters to get open looks and Shawn Bradley was a part of that zone defense. He can't play man to man unless he wants to get torched on defense. These type of weaknesses will show up in the playoffs more than the regular season since teams have time to prepare for the zone. That's just another reason out of like 10 reasons I pick Diop over Bradley. Obviously you are in denial if you don't see Bradley's shortcomings.

[dude1394]

Just curious, I was wondering if you were talking abour perimeter defense being the ability to limit driving (which most folks on this board mean when they say perimeter defense) or the abilility to contest open outside jumpers.

However again you don't listen(read) well. We were discussing zones as how it related to rebounding and as I have shown quite a few times the mavs rebounding wasn't any better OR worse when they played a lot of zone.

[Jet Terry]

Well they were a bad rebounding team period whether going with zone or man to man that year but now you are ignoring my new point about zone defense in the playoffs and when teams get used to it. It is a fake defense to cover a teams shortcomings on defense such as Bradley. Teams might get surprised once in a while and struggle with it but eventually teams will take advantage of it.

[dude1394]

Jet...i'm not ignoring anything, you just jump from point to point after you get refuted.

The mavs played zone for more than just bradley. They played zone because defensively individually they stunk. You think they ONLY did it because Shawn was out there and as with most of your other points that you've been desperately trying to make it's simplistic and wrong.

They did it to hide their inadequacies across the board.

[Five-ofan]

Griffin and raja were the only 2 perimeter defenders on that team that were at least average. Every other perimeter defender was below average to terrible. You think that could have had something to do with the perimeter D??? Bradley COULD play man 2 man. The fact that nellie chose not to do so doesnt mean that he couldnt do it. He did it for the majority of his career. Honestly the biggest difference between the 2 is the coaches attitudes. Avery doesnt treat his centers like a necesarry evil that sometimes arent even necesarry and nellie did. Diop would have looked at LEAST as bad had nellie been his coach. Actually he never would have played because he couldnt shoot at all. Diop is SLIGHTLY better in individual D, signifigantly worse in Shot blocking and signifigantly worse on O. Looking at this From Gana's point of view they are a push at best rebounding. Diop is a nice role player. Bradley was better. Bradley could probably be better right now if he felt like it.

[Jet Terry]

Yeah Don Nelson made Bradley a bad defender. lmao. It's all Don Nelson fault Bradley can't guard anyone. Now Diop is the player Dallas has been looking for a long time. A player that can shot block and man up the Shaq's, Duncan's, and Amare's in the league. I guess none of that matters since Shawn Bradley can block shots. You are all fixated on stats which is just one part of the game. Hopefully you grow up and learn more about the game.

[Five-ofan]

If that is the case why does he play 17.5 minutes a game? I like diop alot but bradley was better than him. You dont have a leg to stand on or a pot to piss in or any of the other cliches in this particular argument.

[Jet Terry]

Because he is sharing time with Mbenga and Dampier which are both equally deserving of minutes. Mbenga is getting minutes because of his guard like energy and incredible shot blocking. Dampier is a great man defender and rebounder. Yes Diop needs to watch his foul count but that's what makes him effective is that he isn't worried about that and prevents easy shots and makes them earn it at the line when the defense breaks down.

[Five-ofan]

Bradley was better overall defensively but would you at least admit that they were even defensively? Hell would you admit they are close defensively??? If they are bradley has an advantage because diop is so utterly terrible on offense. He allows the other center to do all the things that you give him credit for doing in help d because they dont have to worry about him at all. He is a career 37.4% shooter as a center. He is shooting 44% this year which is what we are concerned about but he is averagin 2 a game. Yes i know we want him for D and that is nice but there is another side to the game and the fact that he doesnt keep defenses honest like bradley did is a HUGE difference.

To put it in terms you might understand, you seem to love the idea of help D even though you dont realize that bradley was one of the best help defenders ever. Ignoring that, what qualities in an opponent make it easier for you to be a help defender? The man you are defending being a complete and utter non threat as far as scoring is the biggest thing that helps you as a help defender as far as qualities in an opponent. A guy who is flat out money on a 17 ft set shot is alot less likely to get left then a guy who cant shoot. The guy who can make the 17fter is also much more likely to hurt you if you do come off of him.

Im not sure if i succeeded in getting my point across in this post but basically im trying to say that by being SO bad offensively Diop actually makes other teams better defensively which would make up for the difference in D if Diop was better than bradley defensively. Diop isnt better defensively but I hope you get the idea.

[bcrav4]

What would happen if we doubled Diop's stats and then compared the two since Bradley averaged around 32mpg his first seasons here?

[Five-ofan]

Bradley would probably still have better stats but that is one of the biggest fallacies you can commit. Assuming that X stats in 17 minutes equate to 2X stats in 34 minutes. Very VERY rarely plays out like that.