Is Kidd out of gas?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

This, to me, is the biggest concern right now outside of Dirk coming back. I realize that he doesn't have anyone worthy to pass to right now, but he's been pretty terrible lately. 6 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds on not even worth mentioning percentages in the last 5 games. If the old man used his last life, then we're in a lot bigger hole than we realize.

Discuss...

[deamon]

He was already out of gas in December. Too many minutes for him. That's why we need better backup than Barea.
DevinHarriswillback

[rabbitproof]

It could be a legs issue.

I am hoping it is a heart issue, despite all the connotations it may be bring, simply because that is reparable.

Kidd truly battled in the first Dirk-less Spurs game as Dirk noted when he helped with commentary. With Butler removed, and after a few 38 minute lost causes, it appears he views this current ailment unsolvable with the available internal tools.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

It could be a legs issue.

I am hoping it is a heart issue, despite all the connotations it may be bring, simply because that is reparable.

Kidd truly battled in the first Dirk-less Spurs game as Dirk noted when he helped with commentary. With Butler removed, and after a few 38 minute lost causes, it appears he views this current ailment unsolvable with the available internal tools.

I think (and hope, of course) this is the reason. As you mentioned, Kidd played his ass off in the game against the Spurs at home, just like he did against OKC after Dirk had injured his knee. He's still got it and just has to make sure not to use what's left in hopeless games. Playing in San Antonio without Dirk, Roddy and Caron is as hopeless as it gets.

We can't expect an almost 38-year-old man to carry the Mavs in a situation like this one. If he couldn't carry us for 32 minutes with Dirk, Roddy and Caron's potential replacement on the floor, it would be a problem. Lucikly, the first 29 games of the season didn't indicate that, otherwise we wouldn't have had a 24-5 record.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to have a better backup point guard. I just wouldn't base the need on the last nine games where Kidd and everyone else was severely affected by all the injuries. After all, it's no picnic in the park to be the Mavs' point guard without Dirk, Caron and Roddy.

[Kante]

He just sees that there is not much chance to win games against the Spurs and right now every other game, so he does not play with 100%.

[FINtastic]

I'm not sure if it's really a gas issue as much as maybe age finally creeping up to him. But I think the Mavs should look into cutting his minutes a little bit more to see if some rest can get his mojo working again. This is all the more reason why the Mavericks should look into giving Dojo a shot at some playing time until Roddy gets back.

[Ninkobei]

Kidd does need to replaced sooner or later. I have no idea how the mavs plan on doing that.. Kidd has what, maybe 1 year left of high quality play? IMO Kidd's role should be an off-the-bench PG. Maybe split 50/50 with someone. But there is no one else, so dallas has to lean on him hard which may shorten his usefulness in the long run.

[Underdog]

I mentioned this in another thread a few days back, but we definitely need a better backup for our 37-year-old point guard PG than Barea. We just can't afford to give Kidd much rest when JJB stinks it up every time he touches the floor.

After acquiring another forward to replace Butler, our biggest priority should be finding a new backup PG (or future starting PG - I'd love to bring Devin Harris back!)

[mavs777]

Kind of funny, that when Barea has got his 3 point shot back he is sucking even more

[JHT]

He really needs to have a much more limited role. I mean a lot more limited. I love Kidd but even before Dirk and Butler went down he was not playing particularly well. He can no longer score at all and he's not nearly as good defensively as he was last year. It's gotten bad. Even his 3 point shot is gone.

That's why the pursuit of Devin Harris makes so much sense. The Mavs need a point guard who's good enough to split time with Kidd. Not someone who is just going to play backup minutes but someone who can play heavy minutes, even in crunch time at the point. Barea is fine for 10-12 minutes a night, but we need a 24 minute a night PG. Kidd needs to be playing 24 minutes or so a night and not much more at this stage. He can still be a really nice asset but to rely on him as if he's a top tier point guard still is doom.

[BGMaverick9]

Father time is undefeated...he'll eventually catch Kidd.

I just think he's getting overworked in the past couple of weeks. The shooting was struggling before that, but it easily could have just been a slump.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I remember when dreaming after the SA series was lost that Kidd would start the first 20 games of this season and slowly but surely hand the reigns over to Roddy.

Oh how things didn't go that way...

[SMC0007]

In the playoffs no one is going to honor his shot in a PnR, they will stay under and dare him to shoot. Luckily our offense doesn't rely too heavily on that.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

In the playoffs no one is going to honor his shot in a PnR, they will stay under and dare him to shoot. Luckily our offense doesn't rely too heavily on that.

I agree with the first part. Unfortunately it's not just confined to the PnR. Teams are going to double Dirk hard in the playoffs because they know Kidd can't make them pay.

[fluid.forty.one]

If Roddy comes back around the same time as Dirk (and he plays decently) then it might be a good idea to rest Kidd for a couple games.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

If Roddy comes back around the same time as Dirk (and he plays decently) then it might be a good idea to rest Kidd for a couple games.

I'm not sure how far Roddy is from coming back, it definitely is a good sign to see him planting and cutting. He'll still need to do conditioning tests, contact drills and etc.

I have nothing to verify a estimate so it's just a guess. I'm trying to see a potential stretch that correlates with a homestand in Frisco, maybe the first weekend of Feb. gets him a game in Frisco and then the game against Cleveland could be a return.

[kg_veteran]

Kidd looks to me like he's biding his time.

[Bayliss]

Kidd looks to me like he's biding his time.

But is to the glue factory? That is the concern.....

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

But is to the glue factory? That is the concern.....

No, I think he's biding his time while the team gets healthy. I'd rather him give 80% now and 100% in the playoffs.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

No, I think he's biding his time while the team gets healthy. I'd rather him give 80% now and 100% in the playoffs.

Yeah, but does that explain his poor shooting? His drop in 3 pt percentage is the scariest part for me as it really downgrades his impact on the offense.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Yeah, but does that explain his poor shooting? His drop in 3 pt percentage is the scariest part for me as it really downgrades his impact on the offense.

With Dirk in the lineup he was shooting .348 from 3-point range. Not lights out, but certainly acceptable.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

With Dirk in the lineup he was shooting .348 from 3-point range. Not lights out, but certainly acceptable.

The problem with that is it's his one way to score. If you are going to be a one-dimensional scorer, you kinda need to be better than acceptable at it.

[JHT]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

No, I think he's biding his time while the team gets healthy. I'd rather him give 80% now and 100% in the playoffs.

So the team needs him more than ever... and Kidd decides he's only going to give 80%? If that's true, then he needs to be gone. I'd rather have Barea playing 48 minutes in that case.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by JHT

So the team needs him more than ever... and Kidd decides he's only going to give 80%? If that's true, then he needs to be gone. I'd rather have Barea playing 48 minutes in that case.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Yours is illogical and sadomasochistic, but to each his own...

[Bayliss]

I just hope that effort is more than I saw in the playofs last year.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

I just hope that effort is more than I saw in the playofs last year.

Not having an illness would definitely help but I agree.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

[Popeye]

I don't think he's mailing it in, or he's necessarily out of gas. He's just a pretty limited player at this point and he's not going to be effective playing with a bunch of offensively challenged players. It's not like he's ever been able to break down a defense or create his own shot, at least not in the past 3 years. So he'll probably look better once Roddy and Dirk are back and at full speed.

Or he could be completely done. I dunno. He is 37.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Popeye

I don't think he's mailing it in, or he's necessarily out of gas. He's just a pretty limited player at this point and he's not going to be effective playing with a bunch of offensively challenged players. It's not like he's ever been able to break down a defense or create his own shot, at least not in the past 3 years. So he'll probably look better once Roddy and Dirk are back and at full speed.

Or he could be completely done. I dunno. He is 37.

You lose your top 2 players, the guys left standing are not going to be 500 in this league. Take Duncan and Manu from the Spurs, take Lebron and Wade from the Heat, take Durant and Westbrook from the Thunder, Pau and Kobe from the Lakers. I don't think any of those teams in that group would be better than 2-7. After that first Spurs game, Kidd realized they don't have a hell's chance in winning, I think he shut it down. Hopefully he can turn it back on. I think RC has to start limiting Kidd's minutes going forward. Brass needs to bring in a Caron replacement.

[clutch#41]

if kidd is out of gas, then whats wrong with jason terry???

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by clutch#41

if kidd is out of gas, then whats wrong with jason terry???

Jet is Jet. He is and has always been streaky. Like the "Girl with the curl". When he is good he is very very good. But when he's bad he is awful. He can never be relied on for consistant min.

Kidd is another matter. Perhaps the other shoe has finally dropped. Kidd really is very relient now on the players around him. Chandler is a real plus for him. Two years ago posters were claiming that Kidd made Dirk better. I have always believed that Dirk made Kidd better. Dirks shooting% actually went down while Kidds 3pt % shot way up. Kidd hasn't had the skill set that most of you believed he possessed for some time now. He is still possesses the one skill that the Mavs really need and thats ball movement. And for that reason he really is esential for the offense to function smoothly. Chandler skills are able to compensate for Kidds obvious defensive libilitys while Dirk does the same for Kidds offensive libilitys. The Kidd you see now is almost the same Kidd that has been there for some time but without Dirk to compensate. Put a healthy Dirk back on the floor and only then will we see if his skills have diminished farther.

[cuckold]

kidd still has some fuel left in the tank!

[EricaLubarsky]

Kidd is done in the halfcourt. He's still got a season left in him when leading a primary secondary break. When we rebound, Kidd is effective. When we don't, Kidd sits out at the threepoint line without any offensive movement.

Something to think about-- Im not sure Carlisle thinks about it when he has us play the zone.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Kidd is done in the halfcourt. He's still got a season left in him when leading a primary secondary break. When we rebound, Kidd is effective. When we don't, Kidd sits out at the threepoint line without any offensive movement.

Something to think about-- Im not sure Carlisle thinks about it when he has us play the zone.

I'm not so sure about that. What he does is put the ball right on the guy cutting from behind the basket. He also puts the ball right into dirks sweetspot on the post. He hits cutters, he still handles the ball a ton in the half court. What he doesn't do is break down that defense himself and score.

He sure as hell needs to get that 3-point shot fixed but saying he's done in the halfcourt seems a stretch to me. Look at the difference in the looks everyone gets when jkiddo is in there versus jjb for example, night and day.

And sure you can say it's because jjb stinks, but that's not the point, he just doesn't make the passes that jkiddo does.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm not so sure about that. What he does is put the ball right on the guy cutting from behind the basket. He also puts the ball right into dirks sweetspot on the post. He hits cutters, he still handles the ball a ton in the half court. What he doesn't do is break down that defense himself and score.

He sure as hell needs to get that 3-point shot fixed but saying he's done in the halfcourt seems a stretch to me. Look at the difference in the looks everyone gets when jkiddo is in there versus jjb for example, night and day.

And sure you can say it's because jjb stinks, but that's not the point, he just doesn't make the passes that jkiddo does.

i mostly agree with this. someone said above (ericalubarsky?) that this team needs to rebound better and run more. everyone is energized by some easy transition buckets. if Kidd can start hitting on say 38-40% of his 3's again that would really open things up and we'd all be thinking much more highly of the guy. Kidd seems run down and way off but let's give it a few games with Dirk and Tyson back before we start ringing his death toll...

[JHT]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm not so sure about that. What he does is put the ball right on the guy cutting from behind the basket. He also puts the ball right into dirks sweetspot on the post.

He hasn't been doing that. Not lately anyway. I guess he's getting it to Dirk but anybody can do that.

Even a lot of his passes to guys around the arc, wide open have been bad. There were at least two or three times in the game tonight where he threw what should have been an easy pass to a guy standing on the arc and the ball was slightly off target and went spinning out of the receiver's hands into the stands.

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are.

This is starting to sound like the "Dampier sets good picks" defense.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by JHT

He hasn't been doing that. Not lately anyway. I guess he's getting it to Dirk but anybody can do that.

Even a lot of his passes to guys around the arc, wide open have been bad. There were at least two or three times in the game tonight where he threw what should have been an easy pass to a guy standing on the arc and the ball was slightly off target and went spinning out of the receiver's hands into the stands.

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are.

This is starting to sound like the "Dampier sets good picks" defense.

No what it sounds like is a bunch of folks who see a team that is struggling, think they know the answer is always different personnel and yacking about it. This same team plus caron was kicking everyones ass this year. So if jkiddo sucks now then he sucked then when they were kicking everyones ass. Now I don't think anyone is going to say that Caron is some sort of superstar, but the stew was right.

No one is saying hes playing great or anything..but when you have everyone on the team going 0-6 and such crap, he looks really,really bad. He's not an offensive guy so if that occurs he'll look really bad.

Him stepping in to take a shorter 2 than a 3 doesn't make any sense either, he's become a spot-up shooter and that's what he needs to hit. He isn't, jet isn't, jjb isn't, steve isn't...dirk finally came back and jkiddo helps him get to 20+ points.

And no not everyone can get it to dirk when he needs it and where he needs it so that he can just rise up and shoot it.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by JHT

He hasn't been doing that. Not lately anyway. I guess he's getting it to Dirk but anybody can do that.

Even a lot of his passes to guys around the arc, wide open have been bad. There were at least two or three times in the game tonight where he threw what should have been an easy pass to a guy standing on the arc and the ball was slightly off target and went spinning out of the receiver's hands into the stands.

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are.

This is starting to sound like the "Dampier sets good picks" defense.

Idk man, I get the frustration but I'm not seeing the same things as you as far as the passing goes. I think he's still passing fine it's just as I mentioned earlier, it's the only threat right now when he has the ball. He can't get past his man even occasionally, they know this so they can slack off and crowd the floor up a bit so it's really hurting us that he isn't making them pay by knocking down shots. Maybe too late at this point, maybe not but needs to work harder on taking shots that aren't set up wide open looks. If he doesn't have his feet set in a stationary spot then he doesn't seem to have much a chance. It damn sure doesn't look very comfortable, fluid or pretty.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Idk man, I get the frustration but I'm not seeing the same things as you as far as the passing goes. I think he's still passing fine it's just as I mentioned earlier, but it's the only threat right now when he has the ball. He can't get past his man even occasionally, they know this so they can slack off and crowd the floor up a bit so it's really hurting us that he isn't making them pay by knocking down shots. Maybe too late at this point, maybe not but needs to work harder on taking shots that aren't set up wide open looks. If he doesn't have his feet set then he doesn't seem to have much a chance. It damn sure doesn't look very comfortable, fluid or pretty.

Yes..he needs to take shots that he can make..and those are when his feet are set and he's open. That's why he needs more offense around him...he cannot dribble and pull up for a jumper, just cannot so live with it. But the team runs a hell of a lot better when he has the ball in his hand than it does with JJB OR Jet for that matter.

How did you like the way the pistons pressed jet and he retreated like a scared turtle. THAT's why he cannot play point.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by JHT

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are..

Never are since dirk/caron has been out..Spacing is a little tighter right about now.