Harry Potter Discussion Thread - Page 5 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Flacolaco · 02-26-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

the problem i have with the harry is a hocrux theory is that the actual killing of another person is what splits the soul in order for it to be possible to be made into a hocrux. I know voldy had killed harry's parents BUT he wasnt using them to make a hocrux. He was using harry's. Since he was going to use Harry's death to create the hocrux, how could he create ANY hocrux without the killing that would subsequently split the soul?

I agree with that mess you just said there

Bottom line is, through all the technicalities (and she's very good at these, she could probably explain it away to us how Harry IS a Horcrux and we'd all believe her) if Harry IS a Horcrux and must die, then I see it as a complete cop-out on her part, and I will be pretty pissed off.

WurzburgBorn · 02-26-2007, 12:32 PM

Quote:

the problem i have with the harry is a hocrux theory is that the actual killing of another person is what splits the soul in order for it to be possible to be made into a hocrux. I know voldy had killed harry's parents BUT he wasnt using them to make a hocrux. He was using harry's. Since he was going to use Harry's death to create the hocrux, how could he create ANY hocrux without the killing that would subsequently split the soul?

It is pretty clear that a wizard must murder first before a horcrux can be created.
But I don't think it's clear that the death must be the person that the wizard intended to murder. Slughorn indicates that any murder splits the soul, regardless of whether or not the murderer intends on creating a horcrux. So I'd say Voldemort's own death could have supplied the murder necessary for the splitting of his soul.

I also just don't see it as much of leap to presume that the fact that Voldemort's avada kedavra killed the wrong person (himself) could have an unintended effect on his horcrux spell. Especially since Rowling has said that what happened at Godrick's Hollow was the only time an avada kedavra has ever bounced off anyone.

Finally, Rowling has said that Lily Potter's wand was good for charms and that this fact will be very significant. My guess would be that she charmed the Griffindor object Voldemort was attempting to use as a horcrux so that it would not receive the piece of his soul. When the piece of Voldemort's soul could not enter the object, it went where it could...where Voldemort was casting another spell...Harry.

Definitely a lot of speculation there, but I'm just trying to figure out how it might have happened, since the circumstantial evidence points me in the direction of thinking Harry is a horcrux.

Quote:

if Harry IS a Horcrux and must die, then I see it as a complete cop-out on her part, and I will be pretty pissed off.

Even though I think he's a horcrux, I do not think he will die. Wormtail and/or Snape should be able to prevent that.

Flacolaco · 03-02-2007, 03:56 PM

For those interested in the movies, Dan Radcliffe formally signed to star in Films 6 and 7, completing the series and making sure we don't have another Harry before it's over.

Hopefully the other 2 will follow suit.

Five-ofan · 03-02-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

For those interested in the movies, Dan Radcliffe formally signed to star in Films 6 and 7, completing the series and making sure we don't have another Harry before it's over.

Hopefully the other 2 will follow suit.

thats true but hell be about 27 when the last one comes out...

wmbwinn · 03-02-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WurzburgBorn

It is pretty clear that a wizard must murder first before a horcrux can be created.
But I don't think it's clear that the death must be the person that the wizard intended to murder. Slughorn indicates that any murder splits the soul, regardless of whether or not the murderer intends on creating a horcrux. So I'd say Voldemort's own death could have supplied the murder necessary for the splitting of his soul.

I also just don't see it as much of leap to presume that the fact that Voldemort's avada kedavra killed the wrong person (himself) could have an unintended effect on his horcrux spell. Especially since Rowling has said that what happened at Godrick's Hollow was the only time an avada kedavra has ever bounced off anyone.

Finally, Rowling has said that Lily Potter's wand was good for charms and that this fact will be very significant. My guess would be that she charmed the Griffindor object Voldemort was attempting to use as a horcrux so that it would not receive the piece of his soul. When the piece of Voldemort's soul could not enter the object, it went where it could...where Voldemort was casting another spell...Harry.

Definitely a lot of speculation there, but I'm just trying to figure out how it might have happened, since the circumstantial evidence points me in the direction of thinking Harry is a horcrux.

Even though I think he's a horcrux, I do not think he will die. Wormtail and/or Snape should be able to prevent that.

Reasons to doubt Harry is a horcrux:
1)It would be strange for Voldemort to not figure that out and quit trying to kill him. Voldemort is a master occlumens. Harry sucks at blocking occlumency. Surely, Voldemort could tell that Harry was a horcrux if he was. Surely, if a portion of Voldemort's soul was stored in Harry, then Voldemort would recognize it.

2)Voldemort chose his horcruxes. I can't imagine that Voldemort would choose the boy when he planned to kill the boy. Voldemort didn't have any respect or admiration for Harry or his parents. The Horcruxes were objects he desired and respected due to their attachment to the past great wizards.

3)Although murder splits the soul, I think that a spell and a choice has to be made/done to direct that split soul to an object/person/animal/etc. Voldemort was in no shape to perform a spell or make a choice at the point when the avada kedavra spell backfired on him. And, surely, he would not have chosen Harry ahead of time to be a horcrux for the reasons I already explained which was primarily that Voldemort despised Harry and his parents and everything they represented.

4)"Neither can live while the other survives". How would Voldemort killing his horcrux allow him to live? How can Harry kill Voldemort and then have Voldemort "take him over" or however that would work and that scenario allow Harry to live or prosper?

Now, a question I have is:
Was Voldemort dead after the spell backfired? He was obviously injured and reduced to a poorly defined existence. Did he fail to die due to the horcrux issue? I can't buy that because he did not use a horcrux to come back (unless we assume that his father's bone was a horcrux or Wormtail's arm was a horcrux or Harry was a horcrux and I doubt all of those because Voldemort had no respect for any of those three and would not find them worthy to be a horcrux). So, Voldemort is not quite dead and comes back by the spell using Harry's blood, Wormtail's blood, and his father's bone. So, exactly what was Voldemort's condition after his incident with the infant Harry? Was the spell Voldemort used to come back a spell to raise the dead? If it was, then was Voldemort dead? I doubt it because surely Voldemort would have used a horcrux to re-appear if he had died. So, what is the nature of that spell Voldemort used to come back from a reduced/not dead state back to a fully alive/functioning state? If Voldemort was dead, then why did he choose to not use a horcrux to come back? Wasn't that why he made the horcruxes?

Fun stuff.

Big Boy Laroux · 03-03-2007, 05:33 PM

do we know that horcruxes are used to come back from the dead? That's never been said. all we know is that a horcrux allows you to never truly die, as a bit of your soul still lives on. you may have to use other methods to restore yourself back to life.

as for the "neither can live while the other survives" line, that doesn't rule out the situation where they both die. if they both die, neither lives or survives. it just says that they both can't be alive.

and 5-0, radcliffe is only 17 right now. i doubt they take 10 years to film the next 2 movies.

Five-ofan · 03-03-2007, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

do we know that horcruxes are used to come back from the dead? That's never been said. all we know is that a horcrux allows you to never truly die, as a bit of your soul still lives on. you may have to use other methods to restore yourself back to life.

as for the "neither can live while the other survives" line, that doesn't rule out the situation where they both die. if they both die, neither lives or survives. it just says that they both can't be alive.

and 5-0, radcliffe is only 17 right now. i doubt they take 10 years to film the next 2 movies.

Ahh, i thought he was already 20. Anyway back to the story, does anyone else find the neither can live while the other survives thing to be a bit messed up? They are both alive right now... As for the hocruxes, it says that a hocrux keeps you from dieing by having a piece of your soul bounded to this earth. Since that piece of you soul is here, it bounds the other piece of your soul(the piece that was in your body) to this realm too. the piece of your soul that was in your body is what is put back in your new body not one of the hocruxes or at least thats how i understand it.

mary · 03-03-2007, 06:30 PM

If all of those other inanimate objects can be horcruxes, I don't see why Harry's lifeless body can't also serve the same purpose. Maybe Voldemort's soul is encased inside of his bones, and not his flesh. Voldemort could kill him without destroying himself. Then Voldy could tote DeadHarry around like those zany kids on "Weekend at Bernies". Rowling could write a light-hearted comedic sequel, "My Eternity with Harry".

Seriously, if that really is the ending of the series, it would be incredibly anti-climatic at this point. Let's hope she's got something better up her sleeve.

wmbwinn · 03-03-2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

If all of those other inanimate objects can be horcruxes, I don't see why Harry's lifeless body can't also serve the same purpose. Maybe Voldemort's soul is encased inside of his bones, and not his flesh. Voldemort could kill him without destroying himself. Then Voldy could tote DeadHarry around like those zany kids on "Weekend at Bernies". Rowling could write a light-hearted comedic sequel, "My Eternity with Harry".

Seriously, if that really is the ending of the series, it would be incredibly anti-climatic at this point. Let's hope she's got something better up her sleeve.

It is generally assumed that the diary that almost brought Voldemort back while
Genny Weasley would have died was a horcrux and that that horcrux was destroyed with the tooth of the baselisk. The diary still exists as it was given back to Malfoy with Harry's sock. But, the horcrux issue was eliminated. So, the death of Harry would surely destroy the horcrux issue if Harry was a horcrux.

It actually will be interesting to see how horcruxes are inactivated. Surely, killing Voldemort's pet snake Nagini will eliminate that horcrux rather than Nagini's bones continuing to serve as a horcrux.

No, I think it is crazy to think that Harry is a horcrux because Voldemort would know it and would want to not kill him due to that eliminating a horcrux and a part of his own soul. Voldemort would want to imprison or otherwise control/contain Harry rather than trying to kill Harry. And, it still doesn't make sense due to the prophecy that indicates that Harry's death would be beneficial to Voldemort. If Harry was a horcrux, then his death would upset Voldemort the same way the destruction of the diary upset Voldemort. Every destruction of each horcrux makes Voldemort closer to mortal. Therefore, Harry's death would hurt Voldemort, not benefit him (if Harry is a horcrux).

Harry can't be a horcrux because his death is susposed to benefit Voldemort.

I could be wrong about using a horcrux to come back to life. That was just my understanding and I may have to go back and read again.

Five-ofan · 03-03-2007, 07:55 PM

i dont think was mary was talking about could be the case. Considering the law of the conservation of matter(granted we cheat it in wizard world) since nothing can truly be destroyed only changed in form, the hocruxes could never be destroyed if that was the case.

Big Boy Laroux · 03-04-2007, 09:28 PM

someone brought up a good point earlier. after harry's encounter with voldemort at the ministry in OOTP, it seems like voldemort stopped trying to kill harry (instead focusing on dumbledore). snape even stops the other deatheaters from attacking harry. maybe voldemort actually does know harry is a horcrux at this point.

Flacolaco · 03-05-2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

If all of those other inanimate objects can be horcruxes, I don't see why Harry's lifeless body can't also serve the same purpose. Maybe Voldemort's soul is encased inside of his bones, and not his flesh. Voldemort could kill him without destroying himself. Then Voldy could tote DeadHarry around like those zany kids on "Weekend at Bernies". Rowling could write a light-hearted comedic sequel, "My Eternity with Harry".

Seriously, if that really is the ending of the series, it would be incredibly anti-climatic at this point. Let's hope she's got something better up her sleeve.

Those are me thoughts exactly.

Plus....she's very aware of what goes on in message boards and chat rooms; she's confessed to joining some of them to see what people are saying. I don't think that after her being aware of all the "Harry's a horcrux" speculation, she would go sit down and write that. (Unless of course she's had it planned since way back when like some things, then she wouldn't waver from it)

DH_fan · 03-05-2007, 01:57 PM

WurzburgBorn posted

Quote:

In Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore tells Harry that the reason Voldy can't possess him is because of his ability to love. Dumbledore then tells Harry that this proves he is still a man.
Huh? Of course he's still a man! Why wouldn't he still be a man? Just because his life has been difficult? Or maybe because Dumbledore knows Harry has been carrying around a piece of Voldy's soul in his head for 15 years, and that's why it's surprising Harry is still a man.

This makes a lot of sense to me, even if it is just circumstantial evidence.
Dumbledore holding back information from Harry because he doesn't want him to suffer has been a big theme in the books.

sike · 03-06-2007, 01:46 PM

its almost nap time children....get your mats out.

Flacolaco · 03-06-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

its almost nap time children....get you mats out.

F You!

N

that's how you spell FUN.

as in reading Harry Potter books.

sike · 03-06-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

F You!

N

that's how you spell FUN.

as in reading Harry Potter books.

oh no...he's getting fussy...

Flacolaco · 03-06-2007, 03:24 PM

SPOILER WARNING.

This article contains an absolute crap load of details about the fifth film coming in July. Apparently they're screening crude versions of it for people already, and about halfway through this article, the details get really good.

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#article:9592

If you don't want to read the spoilers, it sounds like th emovie will be quite a bit better than the last one for the "it better be exactly like the book" fans like myself. These descriptions actually have me alittle excited.

also, I hate sike.

wmbwinn · 03-06-2007, 10:54 PM

you guys still haven't dealt with the observation that it is impossible to reconcile "the prophecy" with the idea that Harry is a horcrux...

Explain how it will benefit Voldemort to kill his horcrux?

"neither can live while the other survives"

Horcruxes can be destroyed. The diary was destroyed as a horcrux with the tooth of the baselisk. So, the diary is not still a horcrux although the diary is in the possession of Malfoy.

So, the idea that a dead Nagini or a dead Harry could still be a horcrux is crazy. How can a dead body remain a horcrux when a book with a hole in it cannot remain a horcrux???

mcsluggo · 03-07-2007, 09:45 AM

the scar is the actual horcrux.

kill young 'arry, lop of his head, put it in a bowling bag, and you're good to go... Horcrux intact.

<<I of course have no Idea if this theory fully violates 700 clearcut laws and axioms of the potter universe, so flame away

>>

Flacolaco · 03-07-2007, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

you guys still haven't dealt with the observation that it is impossible to reconcile "the prophecy" with the idea that Harry is a horcrux...

Explain how it will benefit Voldemort to kill his horcrux?

"neither can live while the other survives"

Horcruxes can be destroyed. The diary was destroyed as a horcrux with the tooth of the baselisk. So, the diary is not still a horcrux although the diary is in the possession of Malfoy.

So, the idea that a dead Nagini or a dead Harry could still be a horcrux is crazy. How can a dead body remain a horcrux when a book with a hole in it cannot remain a horcrux???

Quote:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...

(except for the last 16 or 17 years)

I would agree that the Harry is a horcrux theory is a direct contradiction of the prophecy. I'm still nervous about the possibility however....I dont know why.

It also doesnt make sense this way....

Voldermort's tried to kill Harry several times before. It's fair to say that he doesn't think that Harry is a Horcrux as far as he knows. Right?

Then if Harry IS a horcrux, AND Voldy doesn't know about it, he would've logically tried to create another horcurx, and his soul would be in 8 bits, not 7, right? Which of course invalidates everything we thought we knew (dumbledore thought he knew)

(that would actually make an interesting twist at the end....Harry thinks he got all the bits of his soul, but for some reason voldermort won't die...then he realizes its him...)

back to work....

Big Boy Laroux · 03-07-2007, 10:44 AM

when would he have tried to make another horcrux? attacking harry left him almost dead, with weakened abilities. he wouldn't have been able to make one.

now that he's out in the open, with his powers, he could. but i got the impression in HBP, that his deatheaters were doing the killing, not Voldemort. he would have to expose himself to create another horcrux.

wmbwinn, if both harry and voldemort die, that fulfills the prophecy.

i'm not a strong believer in the "harry is a horcrux" theory, but i can see it happening.

Flacolaco · 03-07-2007, 10:59 AM

When you look at the body of work as a whole, and what we've been told through every book about them having this strange "connection" and the scar being so special, and they share dreams, and "voldermort transferred some of his powers to you", pretty much everything between them, it's really easy to see how harry having a bit of his soul inside of him would easily explain all of that....

it just defies a lot of logic. But it's her world, she'll do what she wants....

I just hope it's not true.

sike · 03-07-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

i'm not a strong believer in the "harry is a horcrux" theory, but i can see it happening.

yeah...I still don't know where I stand on this either....but I DO know that I prefer recess to science class!

Five-ofan · 03-07-2007, 09:05 PM

one question about the prophecy, harry is alive and voldy is definitely surviving right now so isnt the prophecy already wrong? i understand that its supposed to be long term or whatever but in my opinion that was one of the small bits of poor writing on rowlings part.

wmbwinn · 03-07-2007, 10:41 PM

"but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not"

Dumbledore said that the power Harry has that the Dark Lord knows not is love. I don't think that it should be construed to suggest that maybe Harry is a horcrux and Voldemort doesn't know it.

I suppose that the death of both would satisfy the prophecy. But, the prophecy statement is quite convoluted if that is all that was intended to be meant.

I understand the temptation to think that the connection between Harry and Voldemort on so many levels could be explained by the "Harry is a horcrux" theory. But, I don't think that that theory is the answer. The theory is definitely contradictory to the prophecy. Dumbledore repeatedly said he did not know exactly why or how Voldemort's powers were transferred or copied to Harry. Dumbledore named all of the suspected horcruxes and never said anything that suggested Harry might be one as well.

Maybe Voldemort performed whatever spell is performed to create a horcrux before he entered the Potters' house. Maybe the failure to kill Harry results in the outcome that occurred. Perhaps a confounded horcrux spell is capable of killing or nearly killing the performer of the horcrux spell and transferring power to the survivor. Who knows...

Flacolaco · 03-28-2007, 10:40 AM

This is the full cover front and back without the text.

Historically the covers have been more thematic to the actual plot as the books have gone along. Certainly the cover of HBP was a direct representation of a particular scene, as was the cover of chamber of secrets, and the order of the phoenix.

So I would bet this particular scene (well obviously) is some degree of actual representation. So what can we see?

There are other people there in the background. Seems strange...but they've never met privately before.

They don't have wands. what's that all about? This seems important. Don't know why.

Harry is wearing the locket. (Also, the "Adult" cover for the UK version is a photo of the locket, with a big 'S' on it)

Harrys' gesture is more welcoming whatever they're both looking at. Voldermort seems to be gesturing in defense maybe.

Whats with the curtains on the sides? or could they be robes?

can you tell that I'm excited?

jthig32 · 03-28-2007, 10:53 AM

It almost looks to me like they're both doing summoning charms.

"Axio _____!"

Flacolaco · 03-28-2007, 11:12 AM

also worthy of a look is the (ugly ass) UK cover. This paints a different scene. Notable are the house elf on Harrys back holding the Gryffindor sword and the gathering fog towards hogwarts. (dementors?)

http://www.mugglenet.com/viewer/?ima...hp7childuk.jpg

nikeball · 03-28-2007, 01:17 PM

lol the UK cover is so terrible looking. how could Rowling consent to that?

Flacolaco · 03-28-2007, 01:31 PM

the UK cover is always awful. I think they just have different taste than we do or something?

sike · 03-28-2007, 02:44 PM

what?! You mean their 30 year old men like their children's books different than you guys?

nikeball · 03-28-2007, 03:16 PM

also..about harry being a horcrux...

Voldemort (pre OotP) couldn't stand being touched by Harry (bc of his mother's sacrifice). So I doubt part of Voldemort's soul could survive in Harry. Also, perhaps voldemort now will try to make Harry a horcrux...because he would have the benefit of two of the strongest magic (good and bad) in existence in one being.....

But I still think it is all pointless and we're looking too deeply in this...

Rowling will find a way to surprise us..she always does!

Flacolaco · 03-28-2007, 03:30 PM

I agree with nikeball and his little Dirk lego vodoo doll

Big Boy Laroux · 03-30-2007, 05:55 PM

With text

Big Boy Laroux · 03-30-2007, 05:59 PM

UK Adult Cover... Makes it look like a trashy novel...

nikeball · 04-01-2007, 12:48 AM

are yall going to get the Deluxe Edition ($65) or the regular edition ($34.99)???

Flacolaco · 04-01-2007, 03:07 AM

oh...probably the deluxe.

Not sure what the benefit is though.

I don't care I guess. I just want this novel in my hands ASAP.

A-S-A-P!!

Big Boy Laroux · 05-10-2007, 07:30 AM

bump for the new OOTP trailer:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/har...thephoenix/hd/

jthig32 · 05-10-2007, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

bump for the new OOTP trailer:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/har...thephoenix/hd/

I like the overall look of it, looks like they're continuing to make them darker, as the books get a bit darker.

The last one had potential, they just screwed up some very key points.

Maybe they'll be a bit more faithful to the book with this one.

Interesting that we never saw a shot from the OOTP headquarters in that preview. I wonder if they're just going to cut that out completely. That'd be disappointing.

Flacolaco · 05-10-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Interesting that we never saw a shot from the OOTP headquarters in that preview. I wonder if they're just going to cut that out completely. That'd be disappointing.

I'll see what I can dig up on this. You're right, that would be awful.

It's hard for me to care much about this movie with the 7th book coming out 8 days later....71 days and counting.

oh btw the movie has been rated PG-13...which is a good thing