Artest/Croshere - Decreases Roster - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

PiusDoe · 08-22-2004, 02:02 AM

Not sure if Indiana would do this...and I am not thrilled with losing Josh Howard, but it clears two roster spots and fills some needs maybe.

Dallas Trades: Jerry Stackhouse, Shawn Bradley, Josh Howard, Jon Steffanson
Indiana Trades: Ron Artest, Austin Croshere

Providing the Dampier trade goes through as proposed...

PG: Terry, Harris, Dickau, AJ
SG: Finley, Daniels
SF: Artest, TAW?
PF: Dirk, Croshere, Hendersen
C: Dampier, Booth, M'Benga, Podkolzine, Esch

I don't know...I like getting Artest and Croshere and dumping roster spots...but haven't been able to come up with a better way than this.

Simon2 · 08-22-2004, 02:31 AM

For some reason, I don't want to exchange STack and Howard for Artest. If Artest wasn't a nutcase, then maybe I'd agree.

orangedays · 08-22-2004, 03:08 AM

Stack, Bradley, and Howard are valuable pieces but I really don't believe that Indiana will go for this trade. Artest is an 18 ppg scorer and one of the most effective defenders in the league (Remember he won DPoY on the perimeter, not as a help defender or in the paint). Also, I think that the Pacers answered their swingman problems when they picked up Stephen Jackson, so they don't really need Stackhouse. O'Neal has been asking for help in the paint and Bradley is a definitely not the 'big body' he envisioned (nor is he an upgrade over Foster). From the Pacers perspective, they already have their fair share of mediocre point guards with Tinsley leading the pack, I doubt they'd be interested in Steffanson. Finally, look at the Mavs team after the starting 5. We have absolutely NO depth. A rookie PG? A second year SG? TAW penciled in at SF and Henderson at PF are you kidding me? C'mon guys.

Simon2 - Artest is a bit unstable but I think he proved to all last year that he can keep it under control; I think in a player's environment like Dallas, he would definitely flourish (recalling all the former 'nutcases' who did so - Van Exel, Fortson).

PiusDoe · 08-22-2004, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: orangedays
Finally, look at the Mavs team after the starting 5. We have absolutely NO depth. A rookie PG? A second year SG? TAW penciled in at SF and Henderson at PF are you kidding me? C'mon guys.

The proposed trade does not decrease our depth at PG or PF. Jason Terry, who is not a rookie PG is our starting PG. It, in fact increases our depth at PF with Croshere playing there. My concern, as stated, was losing Josh Howard, which effects our depth at SF. However, with that lineup you have players in their proper positions, you better the defense, and it could possibly work with Croshere subbing in at SF when Dirk is still on the floor. If you need to sub both SF and PF, put Corshere at SF and Booth or M'Benga, our current sub options (unless Hendersen is healthy), at PF. Again, I don't know how much truth there is to the early rumors of Indiana shopping Artest, but from the Mavericks standpoint this trade improves the starting SF, decreases roster size, and brings in a SF/PF that won't have a problem coming off the bench. I'm not saying it's the end all be all of trades, but c'mon orangedays, essentially it's Stackhouse and Howard for Artest and Croshere while dropping two roster spots. Artest can play the 2/3 as Stackhouse can but brings better defense. Howard can play the 2/3, but Croshere can play the 3/4...4 being where we have NO reliable depth at the moment (once agian providing the Dampier trade goes through as proposed). In no way am I saying this trade MUST be done, just an idea.

Selah,
PD

PlAyMaKeR · 08-22-2004, 05:45 AM

i don't want to see artest in our roster. he will make dirk bad. i think we should trade for a SF who is a good player but not a star cause we've got too many stars on the team.

orangedays · 08-22-2004, 07:36 AM

*sigh*

look at the Mavs team <u>after the starting 5</u>. We have absolutely NO depth. A rookie PG?

The rook in question is Devin Harris.

The trade "brings in a SF/PF that won't have a problem coming off the bench" - True, Croshere should not have a problem coming off the bench considering he has done so over the course of his 7-year career. (Did I mention he's 30 next year?) His contract does not expire until 2007 at $9.5 million, making him the third highest paid player on the Mavs squad. Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with coming off the bench either.

It's very good that you pointed out that the "4 (is) where we have NO reliable depth at the moment" But doesn't gaining Croshere as a backup 4 mean that we have a new, and equally large gaping hole at the 3? TAW played a whopping 0 games last year, and a total of 67 since the millenium. Wow.

I hope I've made a point, I do agree that the two dropped roster spots are a big positive but I'd love to see a less painful way of getting it down.

dalmations202 · 08-22-2004, 08:53 AM

How about this instead? Not that I think Bird will do any trading with Mark....

Dallas trades: PF Alan Henderson (4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 11.3 minutes)
SF Jerry Stackhouse (13.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 29.8 minutes)
C Calvin Booth (4.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 17.0 minutes)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)
SF Jon Stefansson (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)
Dallas receives: PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 13.7 minutes)
SF Ron Artest (18.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 37.2 minutes)
C Scot Pollard (1.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.2 apg in 11.1 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -6.4 ppg, -5.3 rpg, and -1.6 apg.

Indiana trades: PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 13.7 minutes)
SF Ron Artest (18.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 37.2 minutes)
C Scot Pollard (1.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.2 apg in 11.1 minutes)
Indiana receives: PF Alan Henderson (4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 6 games)
SF Jerry Stackhouse (13.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 26 games)
C Calvin Booth (4.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 71 games)
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)
SF Jon Stefansson (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)
Change in team outlook: +6.4 ppg, +5.3 rpg, and +1.6 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

This trade won't happen, but I like it better than that first one.

fin4life · 08-22-2004, 10:16 AM

i dont like the second one any better... i wouldnt do it

jayC · 08-22-2004, 12:51 PM

I would do it. Artest is a hard nosed defender that would make the mavs the favorite to win it all. He would be our Kobe/T-Mac stopper. I don't see Indiana doing that deal we would have to include a point guard. A project like steff doesn't count.

PiusDoe · 08-22-2004, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: orangedays
*sigh*

look at the Mavs team <u>after the starting 5</u>. We have absolutely NO depth. A rookie PG?

The rook in question is Devin Harris.

The trade "brings in a SF/PF that won't have a problem coming off the bench" - True, Croshere should not have a problem coming off the bench considering he has done so over the course of his 7-year career. (Did I mention he's 30 next year?) His contract does not expire until 2007 at $9.5 million, making him the third highest paid player on the Mavs squad. Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with coming off the bench either.

It's very good that you pointed out that the "4 (is) where we have NO reliable depth at the moment" But doesn't gaining Croshere as a backup 4 mean that we have a new, and equally large gaping hole at the 3? TAW played a whopping 0 games last year, and a total of 67 since the millenium. Wow.

I hope I've made a point, I do agree that the two dropped roster spots are a big positive but I'd love to see a less painful way of getting it down.

Alright man...the point I wanted to make about our point guard situation is that my proposed trade does not change our point guard depth. Do you really have a problem with Devin Harris, our 5th pick, getting time as a back-up or would you rather him rot on the bench. This isn't exactly the NFL where you can hold a clipboard and sip lemonade for a year (unless of course you're a 7'5" freak from Russia). I got news for you on our second year SG as well. He just signed a nice sized contract, if he's not starting he's directly backing someone up anyway...my trade doesn't change this. Similar situation to Devin, I think we would want Marquis to get playing time right? So bascially we're OK at all positions except SF and PF. As mentioned in my last post, Croshere can sub in at both of these positions, whereas putting Josh Howard at PF would be quite the stretch. Also, Finley could get part-time at the 3, something he'd probably end up doing anyway, and Dirk could get part-time at the 3. Heck, Maquis could even get time at the 3. You should understand that this isn't hockey, except for Memphis, where you sub in complete lines. Shuffle the players. This trade, opposed to what we have currently have logjamming the 2/3 gives us a player who can sub in at either the 3 or 4, 4 being our area of need. When I listed the players, I was just listing all the players we would have on our roster at their most natural positions. I was not actually proposing TAW would become the 6th man of the year. And no, Croshere isn't the greatest player, but he's a necessary bonus that gives us more flexibility at the 4 in a trade to acquire Artest and dump roster spots.

If this proposal actually causes you to sigh so heavily...start chugging some Zoloft. And off topic of my trade, learn to love Harris and Daniels as they're probably going to play a little bit.

JtK

mavsman221 · 08-22-2004, 06:46 PM

i have a feeling if we ever trade howard we will regret it in the near future plus artest's attitude at times can be very costly. example: remember the game this year in the eastern conference finals when the pacers were playing detroit? well anyway in a very crucial point of the game and the series artest picked up a flagrant or technical foul (i don't remember which one) because he elbowed richard hamilton in the face. that elbow thrown at richard hamilton may have cost the pacers a trip to the nba finals, but they would have lost against the lakers. the point is howard has the potential to be just as good or even better than ron artest, he is younger, has a better attitude, and there is the possibility artest would let his attitude get the best of him and throw another elbow that may cost us a trip to the finals

orangedays · 08-22-2004, 10:05 PM

*sigh*...*chug*...

To address your post:

Off-topic: Calm down sport, I'm sure everyone on this forum is well aware of the differences between the NBA, NFL, and NHL. And there's no need to get all defensive and hostile just because someone didn't like your trade proposal, this is after all a trade "forum" and I assume you posted it in order to get feedback, positive or negative.

On-topic: Yes 'Quis signed a nice contract, yes he's got talent, but if Filthy gets hurt, where does that leave us? I see your point and I understand that you're defending your trade because that's the natural thing to do, but even a cursory look at your "listing (of) all the players...at their most natural positions" reveals that we have four PG, five C, and a total of FIVE players playing the rest of the positions (recalling that both TAW and Henderson have found themselves nice nests on IR).

But I think we've driven this somewhat into the ground, don't take these things so personal...Zoloft? C'mon.

Btw..."7'5" freak from Russia"...is that really necessary? He had a pituitary gland disorder, retaining the ability to walk is amazing enough...much less being in the NBA. Take it easy on P-Pod.

PiusDoe · 08-22-2004, 11:54 PM

I've been stressed out lately while moving and got annoyed easily by your criticizing my trade based on things that had nothing to do with my trade (Devin Harris being our backup, overkill at the PG position) and the fact that Hendersen and TAW are on our team. But its no big deal. I don't post that much because of the little annoying things associated with message boards, so I roll mighty defensive when I do post.

As far as Podkolzine goes, I meant it endearingly. I jumped up and down and celebrated with my girlfriend when we traded for him. But a Siberian 19 year old at 7'5, supposedly shooting the 3 with efficiency and dribbling well, and, actually, having had a pituitary gland disorder, he is a freak. But a great big loveable freak at that. Perhaps in the same way Jevon Kearse is the Freak, but hopefully without all the injuries.

I now resume my lurking duties...

PD