PGT: Mavs fall to .500

[davblue]

Things you can not do if you want to be a quality basketball team:

1. Have your point guard dribble out 80% of the shot clock.
2. Give up 19 offensive boards.
3. Give one of the best young points in the game between 8 to 15 feet of free space each time he turns the corner on a pick.

Darren Collison is really really struggling right now on both ends of the floor... tonight was just ugly save the shot to put it into OT.

As good as Kaman is on the offensive end, he's about twice as bad on D... especially on the PnR's.

I really hope OJ keeps up this level of play when Dirk comes back because there's not much else to see here.

[sike]

The Mavs are cooked this season if they can expect to get anything close to what they've been getting out of Collison and Brand these last couple weeks.

The Mavs need DC and Brand to be serious contributors. NOT guys that make DoJo and Sarge look like solid options.

[MrScottMcKenzie]

Brand and Collison need to re-find their confidence and need to be consistent contributors if the Mavericks want to reach their full potential this season.
Shaun Marion hasn't been getting into good positions since he returned from injury which has certainly inhibited our offense.

Murphy was much better tonight which was a positive, hopefully he can build on this performance.

[MrScottMcKenzie]

But we all have to remember that it's a marathon not a sprint.

[ChileanMavsFan]

Yeah, if the Mavs want to reach the playoffs and be a contender this year they definitely need a lot more contribution from Collison and Brand. There are a couple of options for Brand, specially when Dirk comes back, but Collison needs to be a solid starting PG for the Mavericks to go anywhere.

It's getting a little annoying watching Collison just dribble the ball for 20 sec and then give it to Kaman/Mayo for a forced shot, not using the picks his teammates are setting for him, not attacking the rim like he did with great success the first few games. His defense has been abysmal and his passing was pretty bad last night also.

[Ninkobei]

I feel bad for Carlisle. He only has so much fire in him in a given time period. He's going to be used up by mid season at this rate.

I can't help it but look back and think "What if Chandler was still here?"

[markus1234]

Collison sucks and he is the main reason why we lose games. Simple as that. Finishing transition fast breaks, is all he can do.

Collison should come off the bench and still learn how to play PG. Right now he looks like JJB in his 2nd year... With a Collison, DoJo and Roddy backcourt, this team will have a hard time to reach the playoffs.

[Fragism]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

I feel bad for Carlisle. He only has so much fire in him in a given time period. He's going to be used up by mid season at this rate.

I can't help it but look back and think "What if Chandler was still here?"

I don't feel bad for him at all, it's his job. It's what he's paid to do. A lot of coaches have had it waaaay worse than he does right now.

Originally Posted by markus1234

Collison sucks and he is the main reason why we lose games. Simple as that. Finishing transition fast breaks, is all he can do.

Collison should come off the bench and still learn how to play PG. Right now he looks like JJB in his 2nd year... With a Collison, DoJo and Roddy backcourt, this team will have a hard time to reach the playoffs.

I would say getting decimated on the boards is the main reason we lose games and it's not even remotely close. It's way too early to say we will have a hard time making the playoffs with our current PG rotation considering Collison has had some good games too.

[Budapest Maverick]

In the past, Carlisle managed to mix 1-way players (defensive and offensive), and found great lineups. He's obviously trying to do the same here, it's just not working so far. I was very optimistic about the offense after the first couple games, and thought it wasn't going to be a problem at all, at any point in the season.

Looks like that's not the case, and we can be bad at every aspect of the game, on any given night, with rebounding as the constant deficiency. This could be a very long season, and i'm afraid we're looking like a prototypical treadmill team, which is the worst thing a team can be in this league.

[AO41]

I would like to put it out there that I think Roddy sucks and is useless. If anything hes a curse on this team and I rlly hope they just let him go eventually.

Brand is good...but I would have liked to see us get Scola....but he became available later.

Anyway it obvious Mavs are struggling...but I am not anywhere near panic mode because I think they will win easier when Dirk gets back and if some of the guys play at the same level they are now...the team should be good. And once they start winning a few...I believe the rebounding and D will improve.


GOO MAVS

[dirt_dobber]

we were out-rebounded 62 / 42

sigh....

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Fragism

I don't feel bad for him at all, it's his job. It's what he's paid to do. A lot of coaches have had it waaaay worse than he does right now.



I would say getting decimated on the boards is the main reason we lose games and it's not even remotely close. It's way too early to say we will have a hard time making the playoffs with our current PG rotation considering Collison has had some good games too.

That is why Carlisle is so adamant about it. You can't give the other team 20 extra shots and expect to beat them.

[oilfieldtrash]

.500 team is .500. Oh well when Dirk gets back maybe we can get up to that 8 seed.

I'm hoping that somehow the mavs make a play for some backcourt talent via trade.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by davblue

Things you can not do if you want to be a quality basketball team:

1. Give one of the best young points in the game between 8 to 15 feet of free space each time he turns the corner on a pick.

Nailed it. Curry was single handedly destroying us with that every time, ad nauseum, down the stretch.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

we were out-rebounded 62 / 42

sigh....

Marion needs to pick up some of that slack, but at least he has a knee issue to blame. Elton Brand would be the other guy who has to step it up in that department. Man, I remember this board going gaga over getting this guy off of amnesty waivers. What an utter disappointment he has been so far. Just looks like he doesn't have much left outside of a few good defensive blocks/plays.

[Underdog]

Some positives to take away from the game:

Troy Murphy had 12 points (4-7, all makes were 3-pointers, only one 2-point attempt), 4 rebounds (1 offensive), 1 assist, 4 steals, 2 blocks and only 1 turnover and 3 PFs in 24 minutes... Definitely his best all-around game of the season, even though he did get a little lost on defense at times.

Chris Kaman got a double-double with 18 points (5-11, 8-9 FT) and 17 rebounds (3 offensive) - he was pretty damn-near unstoppable around the block until our offense completely forgot about him.

Bernard James looks like he has a place in this league, especially if he can start hitting his FTs (0-3)... He had 4 points (2-2), 5 rebounds (1 offensive) and 3 big blocks in 18 minutes of play... This is a guy to keep an eye on - right now he's stealing minutes from Wright, who wasn't bad in limited minutes (3 points, 1 rebound, 1 block in 4 mins), but Carlisle seems to prefer Sarge's defense, rebounding and general tenacity.

O.J Mayo... Can't wait to see him with Dirk.

[Kante]

I thought it was a bad move when Carter came back... He just did not look right!

Depressing loss, last 3-4 P&R's were atrocious defended.

[Kante]

I thought it was a bad move when Carter came back... He just did not look right!

Depressing loss, last 3-4 P&R's were atrocious defended.

And i thought that Brand was pretty solid!

[jthig32]

I actually thought Brand looked really good during his run in the third quarter. He looked far more aggressive offensively and was good defensively. His overall play for the season is concerning, as is his quick drop in minutes. But as with everything else, we have to see what happens when Dirk gets back. I think he still has a chance to make an impact as a C next to Dirk. I also think he might fit better at PF with the second unit, with Carter stretching the floor and Sarge not taking the number of touches Kaman takes in the post.

Collison has been disturbingly bad for a concerning stretch, but he probably stands to benefit more from Dirk being on the floor than any other player. Teams are overplaying him on the PnR, and the lane is packed quite a bit right now, making it hard for him to penetrate. I think this lack of floor spacing is why Rick stuck with Murphy so long, hoping his stroke would arrive (and maybe it has, which would be nice).

The frustrating thing from last night was the rebounding. It's been a problem all season, but last night was an outlier in that their best rebounder (by a mile) didn't collect a single defensive rebound. I mean...that's your loss right there. What a strange anomaly.

I'm surprised to see people lamenting Kaman's defense after last night. I've been beating that drum pretty hard, but I thought he was pretty solidly defensively, at least during the second half, and it's really hard to quibble with the kind of game he turned in.

One thing that's really annoying me right now is the carte blance Vince Carter is being given, both offensively and defensively. He takes horrible shot on the offensive end, and he float and freelances WAY too much defensively, giving up wide open threes multiple times a game because of it. I get that he's a valued offensive shot creator while Dirk is out, and he hasn't been terrible by any stretch. But I'm just not a fan of giving him that kind of leeway, especially defensively, where he really hurt us last night.

Despite the frustrating losses, I think everyone is overreacting a bit at this point. Playing .500 ball without Dirk (and without Marion for a few games) is not the end of the world. We've had some serious bright spots (Mayo, Sarge, Kaman at times, DoJo at times?!?!).

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Kante

And i thought that Brand was pretty solid!

Did you like his 3-point attempt?

[Kante]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Did you like his 3-point attempt?

I did not like him getting the ball at the three-point line with .6 seconds or something to go...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Playing .500 ball without Dirk (and without Marion for a few games) is not the end of the world.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the title of this thread, seeing as how we'll probably hover around .500 until Dirk comes back...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Chris Kaman got a double-double with 18 points (5-11, 8-9 FT) and 17 rebounds (3 offensive) - he was pretty damn-near unstoppable around the block until our offense completely forgot about him.

This times a million. He needs to be getting more looks. At least he is basically the second option, but I'd drop the ball down to him pretty much every half court set.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Kante

I did not like him getting the ball at the three-point line with .6 seconds or something to go...

No kidding - what happened to our ball movement from earlier in the season? Seems like we've had way too many of those bailout shots lately...

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

This times a million. He needs to be getting more looks. At least he is basically the second option, but I'd drop the ball down to him pretty much every half court set.

A PG like Kidd would force feed Kaman till his arm falls off.

Kaman, Brand and Dirk need a solid PG who can deliver the ball. If Collison does not learn how to do it, we do not win many games...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I actually thought Brand looked really good during his run in the third quarter. He looked far more aggressive offensively and was good defensively. His overall play for the season is concerning, as is his quick drop in minutes. But as with everything else, we have to see what happens when Dirk gets back. I think he still has a chance to make an impact as a C next to Dirk. I also think he might fit better at PF with the second unit, with Carter stretching the floor and Sarge not taking the number of touches Kaman takes in the post.

Collison has been disturbingly bad for a concerning stretch, but he probably stands to benefit more from Dirk being on the floor than any other player. Teams are overplaying him on the PnR, and the lane is packed quite a bit right now, making it hard for him to penetrate. I think this lack of floor spacing is why Rick stuck with Murphy so long, hoping his stroke would arrive (and maybe it has, which would be nice).

The frustrating thing from last night was the rebounding. It's been a problem all season, but last night was an outlier in that their best rebounder (by a mile) didn't collect a single defensive rebound. I mean...that's your loss right there. What a strange anomaly.

I'm surprised to see people lamenting Kaman's defense after last night. I've been beating that drum pretty hard, but I thought he was pretty solidly defensively, at least during the second half, and it's really hard to quibble with the kind of game he turned in.

One thing that's really annoying me right now is the carte blance Vince Carter is being given, both offensively and defensively. He takes horrible shot on the offensive end, and he float and freelances WAY too much defensively, giving up wide open threes multiple times a game because of it. I get that he's a valued offensive shot creator while Dirk is out, and he hasn't been terrible by any stretch. But I'm just not a fan of giving him that kind of leeway, especially defensively, where he really hurt us last night.

Despite the frustrating losses, I think everyone is overreacting a bit at this point. Playing .500 ball without Dirk (and without Marion for a few games) is not the end of the world. We've had some serious bright spots (Mayo, Sarge, Kaman at times, DoJo at times?!?!).

I also don't like seeing Vince hoist it up every time he gets the ball. Unfortunately because collison has been so meh, we just don't have any wings that can score. He's trying to do too much, but IMO some of it is justified because of so few other options.

[Kante]

Originally Posted by Underdog

No kidding - what happened to our ball movement from earlier in the season? Seems like we've had way too many of those bailout shots lately...

I really do not know. Guys got "too comfortable" after the 4-1 start and now RC and the guys think too much and removed the flow offense?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

One thing that's really annoying me right now is the carte blance Vince Carter is being given, both offensively and defensively. He takes horrible shot on the offensive end, and he float and freelances WAY too much defensively, giving up wide open threes multiple times a game because of it. I get that he's a valued offensive shot creator while Dirk is out, and he hasn't been terrible by any stretch. But I'm just not a fan of giving him that kind of leeway, especially defensively, where he really hurt us last night.

Could not agree more. And as I wrote last night, I'm a bit puzzled that Carlisle seems to have him penciled in for just about every last-shot opportunity. He's a good shot-creator and still has some mojo, but he's not THAT good, and he's not so much better than Mayo or Kaman at creating his own shot that we shouldn't ever use those guys.

If Pop can draw up end-of-game plays for Danny Green, Matt Bonner, etc., I'm quite certain that it won't kill us to mix things up a bit.

*edit to add* I should be clear about something. I'm picking bones about the last-shot situations, but clearly the biggest reason the Mavs lost this game was rebounding. Everything I said about becomes irrelevant if the Mavs get outrebounded by less than 15.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Could not agree more. And as I wrote last night, I'm a bit puzzled that Carlisle seems to have him penciled in for just about every last-shot opportunity. He's a good shot-creator and still has some mojo, but he's not THAT good, and he's not so much better than Mayo or Kaman at creating his own shot that we shouldn't ever use those guys.

If Pop can draw up end-of-game plays for Danny Green, Matt Bonner, etc., I'm quite certain that it won't kill us to mix things up a bit.

Yep. Last night's end of regulation play was so awful that I have to think (hope?) that Carter just went rogue and broke the play.

In an ideal world, Carter is a catch and shoot bomber. That's it. He CAN do more, but every time he starts, he does crazy, stupid things that will never work.

And his defense bothered me more than his offense last night.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yep. Last night's end of regulation play was so awful that I have to think (hope?) that Carter just went rogue and broke the play.

His quick trigger finger (if that's even an accurate description for a play where he held the ball for like 12 seconds before driving) has been bothering me since Game 1. He seems way, way too eager to shoot and not nearly eager enough to use his veteran savvy to help make his teammates better.

And you're right about his defense.

[LonghornDub]

Here's what RC had to say about going with Vince at the end:

“I just liked that situation,” said Carlisle, who has had the luxury of drawing up late-game plays for Dirk Nowitzki for the last four years. “He had hit big shots during the game. He got a good look off.”

Now, I'll be honest, that bugs me. It sounds fine at first, but then you go look at the play-by-play. I'm not sure what "big shots" coach is referring to, but Carter had four baskets in the entire game. Two were in the first quarter, and two more were midway through the 3rd when the game was around tied. Carter was 0-2 in the fourth quarter before his last shot. That seems like something you should know when you're drawing up the last play.

Again, I don't want to focus too much on the thing that wasn't the biggest issue, but this is one of those things that has always bothered me slightly about coach. Not a huge deal, of course.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

His quick trigger finger (if that's even an accurate description for a play where he held the ball for like 12 seconds before driving) has been bothering me since Game 1. He seems way, way too eager to shoot and not nearly eager enough to use his veteran savvy to help make his teammates better.

And you're right about his defense.

Fwiw he had 5 assists last night and has been moving the ball pretty well overall for the most part. Several times guys haven't knocked down open J's tho.

He has been really bad on defense, as mentioned floating around and sagging in on guys who aren't even offensive threats. I can't count the times his man has had wide open looks at 3's, but it's a ton.

It looked to me like he was telling OJ something while walking on the floor for the final play of regulation last night. I'd love to know what he said just before hogging the ball and launching a highly contested fade away.

[Kante]

That quote got me more from RC:

On Darren Collison: “Right now he’s our starting point guard.

Right now sounds a bit odd... Like if they are searching for something new but won't admit it!

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Here's what RC had to say about going with Vince at the end:



Now, I'll be honest, that bugs me. It sounds fine at first, but then you go look at the play-by-play. I'm not sure what "big shots" coach is referring to, but Carter had four baskets in the entire game. Two were in the first quarter, and two more were midway through the 3rd when the game was around tied. Carter was 0-2 in the fourth quarter before his last shot. That seems like something you should know when you're drawing up the last play.

Again, I don't want to focus too much on the thing that wasn't the biggest issue, but this is one of those things that has always bothered me slightly about coach. Not a huge deal, of course.

It's crazy that the ball didn't go to Mayo at all. RC needs to trust him a bit more if only for the fact that he couldn't be slowed down in the fourth. Anyone who has been watching VC for the last few years knows that he was most likely gonna settle for a jumper there. Easiest coaching decision ever was just sitting in front of RC for the taking and he opted for that instead. Give the damn ball to the hottest guy on the floor and let him work. Easy to justify.

[Ninkobei]

Did anyone see Vince Carter's bong-hit celebration after he hit a 3pointer? Skin and Fallowell brought it up but they were pretty vague as to what it stood for. Still, I don't think that lifestyle makes for a good/great basketball player. But that is just a personal opinion.

[EricaLubarsky]

1) Collison doesn't know the slightest about how to pass into the post. This needs to change. He had two ridiculous turnovers in the 4th based on his inability to pass.

2) Our rebounding was the real story. Our offense was stagnant but we have so many weapons that we easily outshot them. If we had grabbed 2-3 more rebounds we'd have won. If we had kept the rebounding even, we'd have won by 20+

3) Mayo is in every way superior to Terry. He makes his presence felt without jacking up shots. He'll be fun to see play. His ballhandling during the full court press was a little suspect but at this time I actually prefer him at the point, particularly after Dirk returns.

4) Kaman was pretty strong but you could tell there was a LOT of confusion. He was also getting disrespected big time. Even looking at the highlights from NBA.com you can see a bunch of missed loose-ball fouls when the young guns pushed him around and rebounded over his back.

5) I don't know if there are locker room issues that exacerbated it, but at the very least this team has a way to go to learn Carlisle's system. At worst, we have some real communication issues.

6) Carlisle looked PISSED last night. He was not a happy camper. He pulled Collison for a brief time during the 4th, which I thought was telling.

7) Stackhouse-- I mean Carter was pretty good for us. I loved his leadership. I loved his clutchness. I just don't think the team knows how to function as a team right now so it's nice to have guys like Mayo, Kaman and Carter that can play iso.

8) Marion looked pretty good defensively and on the boards. He was pushed around a lot without a call, but made up for some of it by getting his hands on a few poke-aways and interceptions. I hope he continues to improve his effectiveness and he's just recovering from injury. His offense is awful and he needs fast breaks or plays run for him to be effective. See #7 about this team's lack of offensive execution.

9) For the second time Dahntay was our best defender. He was the only guy busting buns the whole game and I loved when he flopped when Curry grabbed his arm. This team allowed itself to be disrespected by the refs. Jones did a good job D-ing it up and selling calls. His fast break was also pretty impressive, but ended up in a (suspect) charge.

10) James was lost a few times but other than Dahntay he played the hardest and I thought he was actually pretty effective. He bit on some fakes and made a few mistakes that you'd expect from a rookie. He didn't always fill up the stat sheet but he made himself felt. His hustle was commendable and 4pts, 5reb, 3blocks is nothing to scoff at. He's getting to be my favorite player.


It's just going to be interesting to see how long this team takes.

[grndmstr_c]

Not getting the dissatisfaction with Vince's end-of-regulation try, or the dissatisfaction with Vince in general. A couple specific comments:

- I am 100% okay with him getting that last shot in regulation. The only thing that could lose the game in regulation was a TO, the starting/closing backcourt had already let the W's back into it earlier in the 4th with stupid sloppy play, and there isn't another guy on the active roster, Mayo included, who can match Vince when it comes to getting a shot off with minimal fluff. Look past the fact that it didn't drop through the net, which jumpers do at best only about 45% of the time anyway, and it was a well designed and very well executed play for the situation.

- I did see him floating some defensively, and at least once I saw it cost the Mavs three points. That said, on the play I'm thinking of, Vince had been helping Sarge on Landry deep in the post. On a subsequent trip down the floor, Landry again got position on Sarge, no double came, and it was a quick two. So at least one of the floating instances was a pick-your-poison situation. I'll also point out that Vince has made a number of terrific weak-side defensive plays this season. At any rate, the penetration the Mavs have been allowing opposing guards is the far bigger concern to me.

- As for him shooting too much in general, as I alluded to above, this team is really short on guys who can consistently create their own shot...as in, Vince appears to be the only guy who can do it. So for the time being, I'm afraid it's a necessary evil. And as somebody else said, he's not just out their chucking. He's making plays for others, directing traffic on offense, challenging shots on the interior. The guy's doing everything he can out there, and as far as I'm concerned, he's one of the guys keeping the team afloat right now. At least that's the way it looks to me. And judging by RC's reaction to his temporary injury absence last night, I daresay I'm not the only one who sees it that way. If you want him to do less, tell some of the other guys to start doing a little bit more.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Not getting the dissatisfaction with Vince's end-of-regulation try, or the dissatisfaction with Vince in general. A couple specific comments:

- I am 100% okay with him getting that last shot in regulation. The only thing that could lose the game in regulation was a TO, the starting/closing backcourt had already let the W's back into it earlier in the 4th with stupid sloppy play, and there isn't another guy on the active roster, Mayo included, who can match Vince when it comes to getting a shot off with minimal fluff. Look past the fact that it didn't drop through the net, which jumpers do at best only about 45% of the time anyway, and it was a well designed and very well executed play for the situation.

I think the criticism is heavily compounded by him coming up gimpy and limping back into the game, and looking pretty bad offensively from that point on (particularly in the pick and roll game with Kaman, but also on a spot up from the wing). But beyond that, I really think Kaman in the post had a much higher expected value. The Mavs really got away from that down the stretch entirely after Collison's complete brainfart of an attempted entry pass earlier.

Good point RE his roaming defense though. I think that was in part him helping pick up other people's slack.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Stackhouse-- I mean Carter

Exactly what I've been thinking all season

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Not getting the dissatisfaction with Vince's end-of-regulation try, or the dissatisfaction with Vince in general. A couple specific comments:

- I am 100% okay with him getting that last shot in regulation. The only thing that could lose the game in regulation was a TO, the starting/closing backcourt had already let the W's back into it earlier in the 4th with stupid sloppy play, and there isn't another guy on the active roster, Mayo included, who can match Vince when it comes to getting a shot off with minimal fluff. Look past the fact that it didn't drop through the net, which jumpers do at best only about 45% of the time anyway, and it was a well designed and very well executed play for the situation.

- I did see him floating some defensively, and at least once I saw it cost the Mavs three points. That said, on the play I'm thinking of, Vince had been helping Sarge on Landry deep in the post. On a subsequent trip down the floor, Landry again got position on Sarge, no double came, and it was a quick two. So at least one of the floating instances was a pick-your-poison situation. I'll also point out that Vince has made a number of terrific weak-side defensive plays this season. At any rate, the penetration the Mavs have been allowing opposing guards is the far bigger concern to me.

- As for him shooting too much in general, as I alluded to above, this team is really short on guys who can consistently create their own shot...as in, Vince appears to be the only guy who can do it. So for the time being, I'm afraid it's a necessary evil. And as somebody else said, he's not just out their chucking. He's making plays for others, directing traffic on offense, challenging shots on the interior. The guy's doing everything he can out there, and as far as I'm concerned, he's one of the guys keeping the team afloat right now. At least that's the way it looks to me. And judging by RC's reaction to his temporary injury absence last night, I daresay I'm not the only one who sees it that way. If you want him to do less, tell some of the other guys to start doing a little bit more.

I can see the argument for why the Mavs need him chucking to a certain extent right now. I would have less of a problem if he'd stop taking so many jumpers from a foot inside the three point line. I think he's overdoing it in general but I can see the stance on the other side.

Defending the final shot in regulation last night, though, flabbergasts me. It was awful. I find it really hard to believe that a Mayo/Kaman wing/post set, with that much time on the clock, doesn't result in a MUCH better shot.

As for his defense, it's not something I've looked at closely before last night, so I don't know if it's a trend, but I watched him pretty closely last night and I thought it was a big problem.