REBOUNDING! - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-20-2012, 12:55 PM

! ! !

Dallas is dead last in the league in opponent rebounds per game. Dead last in giving up offensive rebounds. 27th in offense rebounds. 26th in differential. What can be done to fix this? Players just aren't properly boxing out or caring enough. There is no other excuse for such awful numbers.

MavsFTR · 11-20-2012, 01:05 PM

Dirk gives us about 5-7 rebounds a game. Maybe once he returns and Marion is 100% we will look a bit better in this department.

EricaLubarsky · 11-20-2012, 01:21 PM

Kaman has been progressively better as he gets healthy. Dirk may not put up great numbers but he's fundamentally sound and blocks out for others--inflating the numbers of those around him. Marion is one of the best at his size.

I figure we have two problems with rebounding. One of which will come along.

1) Defense, defense defense. The guys are all learning a new defense and are often confused, out of place, or just slow to their spot. If they do make a good defensive play, they aren't ready for the rebound. This should settle in as the guys work better together.

2) Long rebounds. Our guards are just terrible at rebounding the long balls and 50/50 shots. Maybe it's part of the hesitance of learning a new system, but our guards just don't have an eye for the ball. Kidd probably spoiled us by bringing such an unbelievable rebounding mentality to the position, because without him, we were awful last year too. Perhaps it's a symptom of players not being comfortable with the sets on both side of the floor, but hustle is hustle and if James can do it, I'm not sure why the guards can't.

markus1234 · 11-20-2012, 02:25 PM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...n/point-guards

EricaLubarsky · 11-20-2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...n/point-guards

Interesting. He's far from the worst but I wouldn't have put him in the top 20.

Collison 14-17th
Mayo 8th.

Perhaps I had it all wrong on their ability to board.

LonghornDub · 11-20-2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Interesting. He's far from the worst but I wouldn't have put him in the top 20.

He's in the top 20 in minutes, not rebounds. You need to re-sort the columns.

markus1234 · 11-20-2012, 02:40 PM

He is top 14 in minutes and 34 in rebounds...

BGMaverick9 · 11-20-2012, 02:50 PM

An issue I've noticed is Dallas seems to be in position to grab the rebound but someone lose control of the ball or 2-3 guys will battle it out and wind up losing it. That definitely hurts the cause.

SMC0007 · 11-20-2012, 02:51 PM

HE's 41's in rebounds! Tied with Kidd....

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...uards/count/41

SMC0007 · 11-20-2012, 02:53 PM

Boxing out would be a good start for this team.

LSMF · 11-20-2012, 03:24 PM

Rebounding with this team is very frustrating to watch. Dirk coming back is going to help a bit but it certainly won't fix that, because Dirk doesn't have the lift he used to have anymore. He only averaged about 7 boards per game last season. I just want to see guys boxing out and scrapping for boards. I see so many times when a shot goes up guys are just standing and watching, no boxing out, no jumping. And while they do this you'll see someone on the other team either snag the rebound or just follow it up with a putback dunk or tip-in. So frustrating to watch...

markus1234 · 11-20-2012, 03:30 PM

1st of all, Dirk is playing fewer minutes. During the playoffs when his minutes go up, he is still good enough to get a double double...

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelo.../dirk-nowitzki

In 21 games he grabbed 9 rebounds or more....10 times. That's solid.

EricaLubarsky · 11-20-2012, 03:38 PM

Oops, saw that at work and didn't have time to look too intently at the numbers.

all players

Centers
10th Bernard James
25th Kaman
49th Wright

PFs
36th Brand
59th Murphy

SFs
5th Marion
67th Crowder

SGs
8th Dom. Jones
19th Carter
20th Dahntay Jones
42nd Mayo
69th Cunningham

PGs
7th Roddy
63rd Collison

That doesn't look terribly good.

25th Kaman
36th Brand
5th Marion
42nd Mayo
63rd Collison

And we really wonder why we are the worst rebounding team in the league? Only Marion even rebounds like a starter (top 30), and he's actually darn good. The rest of the team are not even near top-30. Admittedly it's not more bad news and the team stats affect the individual and some of the players are mis-classified as Carter plays mostly SF, but that's a grim picture. At least with Dirk we could get a top 30 guy at every position.

markus1234 · 11-20-2012, 03:41 PM

Our C and PF position will improve once Dirk comes back and Kaman is 100%.

Long rebounds is the main problem IMO...and bench rebounding sucks.

Kante · 11-20-2012, 05:04 PM

I don't get what this thread title has to do with the Mavs...

oilfieldtrash · 11-20-2012, 09:50 PM

Rebounding is effort, position, eye for where the ball will be once it hits rim/backboard/etc, and not being scared of a little contact. Athletic ability doesn't hurt either.
Being afraid of contact says a lot about a player in my book.

Look at the top rebounding pg's. Ridnour and Lin in the top ten. That just goes to show you don't need to be 6ft 10in and 250lbs.

Kante · 11-27-2012, 09:03 PM

So, has Murphy playing over Wright helped? I guess not!?

sefant77 · 11-27-2012, 09:40 PM

Outrebounded by a smaller team...

EricaLubarsky · 11-27-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

So, has Murphy playing over Wright helped? I guess not!?

Maybe we'd have gone 4-7 losing by more each time?

LonghornDub · 11-28-2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

So, has Murphy playing over Wright helped? I guess not!?

Murphy shouldn't play a minute as far as I'm concerned. But this is one of those things we have to accept as part of RC's coaching philosophy.

SMC0007 · 11-28-2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Murphy shouldn't play a minute as far as I'm concerned. But this is one of those things we have to accept as part of RC's coaching philosophy.

Well as a proud supporter of RC, he is walking a fine line. From the outside looking in, I'm not a pleased with what he has done this season....so far. Surely there's a big picture that I'm not seeing.

EricaLubarsky · 11-28-2012, 12:22 PM

When Wright is on the floor, our offensive efficiency is 9.4% better.

Here is also another set of stats. One belongs to Murphy and one belongs to Wright. Can you guess which one is which?
12.5 rebound rating
17.7 rebound rating

How about these two:
6.4 block rating
2.8 block rating

If you said that Wright had the better rating both times, you would be 100% correct. Wright's better for offense, he's better for rebounding, he's better for shotblocking. He's also ten times the help defender that Murphy is. Murphy doesn't slide over to help and often doesn't even look away from his man even when a guard has the ball. His lack of defensive help allows teams to have layup drills because our guards need help from the 4/5.

Carlisle is a brilliant tactician but he's absolutely destroying the team with his insistence on Murphy.

dude1394 · 11-28-2012, 01:38 PM

So over the top. Murphy nor Wright had a hand in 6 straight turnovers last night. Wright is a cute little player but he's just not worth all of the angst.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-28-2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Carlisle is a brilliant tactician but he's absolutely destroying the team with his insistence on Murphy.

Talk about ridiculous hyperbole. Murphy played a whopping 11 minutes against Philly. His minutes have been going down since the Golden State game so maybe take a deep breath there. Who are you going to blame on destroying the team once Murphy gets 0 minutes? Maybe the team just isn't that good? I pin my hope on the fact that the championship squad was 2-7 without Dirk. Just gotta try to stay at .500 until he gets back.

EricaLubarsky · 11-28-2012, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Talk about ridiculous hyperbole. Murphy played a whopping 11 minutes against Philly. His minutes have been going down since the Golden State game so maybe take a deep breath there. Who are you going to blame on destroying the team once Murphy gets 0 minutes? Maybe the team just isn't that good? I pin my hope on the fact that the championship squad was 2-7 without Dirk. Just gotta try to stay at .500 until he gets back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

! ! !

Dallas is dead last in the league in opponent rebounds per game. Dead last in giving up offensive rebounds. 27th in offense rebounds. 26th in differential. What can be done to fix this? Players just aren't properly boxing out or caring enough. There is no other excuse for such awful numbers.

Hyperbole? A Bit. Wrong? Maybe you should argue against the facts. Wright is better than Murphy. Your take?

Do you contest that assertion or was your post simply a criticism of my hyperbolic verb use? I'm pretty sure I never said that he was the sole reason this team was bad and have filled the forum with dozens of posts of analysis and stats that point to other issues that we are facing. I know this team is having issues and I know the primary reasons why (1- Dirk, 2- new team gelling issues). That doesn't mean that a Mavericks fan can't go about trying to figure out the reason we are AS bad as we are.

This isn't about why the team is bad right now. It is about aspects of the coaching and roster that are troubling and answering the question-- or assertion-- whatever it was that you brought up when you created this thread. What can be done? Play Brandan Wright.

Wright getting no PT when he is the obvious best choice (at least until Dirk gets back) is a problem and the solution is that Carlisle should play him.

Marion has been terrible. Mayo has been passive during a lot of crucial minutes. We've been killed on defense and rebounding. Will those issues still matter when Dirk returns? We'll have to see, but in the mean time, I will analyze why we are as bad as we are and how we could be less bad in Dirk's absence. Wright getting PT is one of them. Collison's lack of PG skills are another. The obvious answer is to get Dirk to play PF, but since he's injured, I figured it would be better to talk about what can be done RIGHT NOW while he's gone so that we can "stay at .500 until he gets back" like you said.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-28-2012, 03:12 PM

Rick is never going to play Wright at the PF position. I don't fully agree with it just like I don't fully agree with Roddy not playing 2 guard ever again. Those guys just have to deal with it. I don't believe that Wright is going to rebound better playing PF. Advanced stats on Wright versus Murphy rebounding-wise is silly because both players just aren't that good. And so long as Wright plays center, then I'd play Brand and Kaman ahead of him. There is nothing wrong with that though because Wright can still play in a pinch. And btw, Wright started versus the Lakers (two games ago). Yes, he made some good baskets, but they weren't enough to offset the fact that he can't defend or rebound. He was still a net negative. When defense and rebounding are the team's main issues, then that is why Wright doesn't play.

oilfieldtrash · 11-28-2012, 03:36 PM

Bring back Finley! He can be the go to guy in the clutch when Vince takes a breather.

LonghornDub · 11-28-2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

When defense and rebounding are the team's main issues, then that is why Wright doesn't play.

Doesn't explain why Murphy plays. As you allude to, Wright should be playing (some) PF over Murphy. Murphy doesn't do a single thing better than Wright, and Wright does at least a couple things much better than Murphy.

If their ages were switched but everything else was exactly the same, Murphy wouldn't play a lick.

dude1394 · 11-28-2012, 03:53 PM

I haven't looked at game tape to see how Murphy/wright handle themselves. Is Murphy boxing out and giving his team the chance to get a rebound whereas wright isn't. I don't know, Carlisle does.

oilfieldtrash · 11-28-2012, 03:58 PM

Murphy is a throwback to the Don Nelson days. Following in a long line of white guys that can't play. Shawn Bradley, Evan Eschimire, Chris Antsy, Van Horn, the French guy that never saw the floor, Raef, Podkolzine.

LonghornDub · 11-28-2012, 04:01 PM

For the record, Murphy playing or not playing is far from the only thing ailing the team right now. I bring it up only because it has a very simple, clear solution. Everything else is much more complex.

oilfieldtrash · 11-28-2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I haven't looked at game tape to see how Murphy/wright handle themselves. Is Murphy boxing out and giving his team the chance to get a rebound whereas wright isn't. I don't know, Carlisle does.

Nope. If either was to actually box someone out they'd have a chance to at least have a ball fall right into them and accidently grab a board.

EricaLubarsky · 11-28-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Murphy is a throwback to the Don Nelson days. Following in a long line of white guys that can't play. Shawn Bradley, Evan Eschimire, Chris Antsy, Van Horn, the French guy that never saw the floor, Raef, Podkolzine.

Antoine Rigadeau?