Postgame: Spurs at Mavs - Props and Jason Terry - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 12-31-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

It might be that way if you want to kill his confidence, which has the possibility of happening. Just as gmc said, if you're going in there to be a shooter - you shoot.

It's not like he was missing completely wide and it was airball after airball. If we've seen anything from Carlisle, it doesn't matter if the shots go in or not, it's how you approach things in a systematic manner. If you're given the ball and you're wide open, you shoot the ball and live with the end result.

It's a 50/50 scenario, we see how it turned out with the missed but...he makes those jumpers, the game could turn out very differently.

Yeah, but other than that 3-pointer in OKC, he hasn't done anything IN-GAME to prove he can spread the floor (and the Spurs certainly weren't biting...)

Looking at the shot chart, I don't see how Ajinca did anything that Mahinmi couldn't do, and Ian brings a whole lot more to the game than just "spreading the floor" - I think Carlisle played the wrong non-Haywood last night (live and learn, but learn...)

FINtastic · 12-31-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

If we're going to question the performance on the boards last night, two things need to be noted: 1) the Mavs did well cleaning up the defensive glass, it was their failure to make an impact on the offensive end that stood out, and 2) the team's forwards, Marion, Butler and Cardinal combined for 8 rebounds in over 90 minutes of playing time. That seems to have been largely overlooked in the griping about JET's shooting woes and Rick's rotations.

Actually I pointed this out on the first page. I didn't mention Butler though because I felt he warranted a little bit of a free pass due to his stellar offensive play. But he certainly didn't help either.

You are correct that the Mavs were actually pretty good when it came to defensive rebounding. When the Spurs were on offense, they grabbed 18.4% of the rebounds, well below their season mark of 25.6%. Like you said though, the Mavs were absolutely terrible on the offensive end (grabbing a mere 4 rebounds of 47 available rebounds).

So I certainly agree when you say that JET's shooting woes are getting slightly overrated when everyone is making it the story of the game. Grabbing 8.5% of the rebounds on offense doesn't do wonders for your offense either.

Underdog · 12-31-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

So I certainly agree when you say that JET's shooting woes are getting slightly overrated when everyone is making it the story of the game. Grabbing 8.5% of the rebounds on offense doesn't do wonders for your offense either.

Failures 1A and 1B - it always takes more than one factor to lose a game...

SMC0007 · 12-31-2010, 06:33 PM

I'm pretty sure that if JET was 6'7'' 220ish he would be Caron Butler.

If there is anything to be annoyed about it should be those two, not Ajinca. Caron had a good night with 30 pts and shooting a decent % surprisingly but I still thought he shot wayyyyyy to many stepbacks and fade aways, he just took and hit more than usual. I thought he could have had a HUGE night, but he settled a lot.

While I agree with this statement "Experiment failed. Do not repeat." I think there are more key guys on this team that could benefit from it (Caron and JET).

BGMaverick9 · 12-31-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, but other than that 3-pointer in OKC, he hasn't done anything IN-GAME to prove he can spread the floor (and the Spurs certainly weren't biting...)

Looking at the shot chart, I don't see how Ajinca did anything that Mahinmi couldn't do, and Ian brings a whole lot more to the game than just "spreading the floor" - I think Carlisle played the wrong non-Haywood last night (live and learn, but learn...)

I took the shot-chart out just to avoid seeing the damning evidence

The in-game scenario hasn't look good this year but previous seasons in Charlotte indicate he has SOME capable range for a guy his size in the 16-23 foot range. I'm sure they build a generic scouting report title like "shooter" off a history of results.

One way they could have looked at it is Mahinmi has been in the Spurs camp for a couple of years, they've scouted him closely. They know what he can and can not do...if you throw something different, you might learn something new against a familiar opponent.

Carlisle has been a guy this year to admit fault in something when it's worth noting. He's called himself out on multiple occasions for faults the led to the team's defeat. It could be token fault or not but he hasn't had to say it. He admitted that Ajinca struggled defensively but that's just in part to not really getting time but said he made some good things happen and was aggressive.

grndmstr_c · 12-31-2010, 06:48 PM

Ajinca wasn't in their to draw the Spurs out of their defensive scheme of packing the paint. Popovich isn't an idiot, and I don't expect Carlisle thinks that he's one, either. Ajinca was in there because he was the only option at backup center (i.e., shotblocking presence) with the ability to take what the Spurs' defense was willing to concede.

dirno2000 · 12-31-2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Well something that's been mentioned between me and Rhylan before is the matter of what actually caused the Spurs shooting attack to sputter, the zone. Haywood is a skilled man defender but the zone actually negates his strength as a defender. Once he's put in that situation, he's more likely out of position and forced into a tougher scenario.

The reason given for his benching last night was that we wanted to match up differently with the Spurs. If Haywood can't play in a zone that's not a match up issue it's a personnel issue and he shouldn't be our back up center. I don't think that's the case though. I didn't think he struggled playing zone last year and don't think he has this year when his head's been in the game. He's long enough and smart enough to be a good help side defender, which is basically what the zone asks him to do. I also have a hard time believing that a player as raw as Ajinca has a better understanding of our zone concepts.

This was supposed to be an offensive move but, like I said, he's going to to get the respect of the defense just by being out there and on most nights he's not going to get enough shots to make teams pay for ignoring him anyway. Maybe later in the year when he starts showing up on scouting reports but not at this point.

Underdog · 12-31-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

If there is anything to be annoyed about it should be those two, not Ajinca.

I'm not annoyed with Ajinca, just nit-picking - I don't think his 11 minutes made any difference on the outcome of this game...

FINtastic · 12-31-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I took the shot-chart out just to avoid seeing the damning evidence

The in-game scenario hasn't look good this year but previous seasons in Charlotte indicate he has SOME capable range for a guy his size in the 16-23 foot range. I'm sure they build a generic scouting report title like "shooter" off a history of results.

One way they could have looked at it is Mahinmi has been in the Spurs camp for a couple of years, they've scouted him closely. They know what he can and can not do...if you throw something different, you might learn something new against a familiar opponent.

Carlisle has been a guy this year to admit fault in something when it's worth noting. He's called himself out on multiple occasions for faults the led to the team's defeat. It could be token fault or not but he hasn't had to say it. He admitted that Ajinca struggled defensively but that's just in part to not really getting time but said he made some good things happen and was aggressive.

I have to say that part of the reason that I've been hard on Ajinca is because I'm of the belief that Mahinmi is the superior player in most respects. Now I don't have the privilege of getting to watch practices like you do unfortunately so all I have to go on is what they've done so far in limited playing time during their careers. And Mahinmi's production completely dwarfs Ajinca's thus far. Now we're working with a career sample size of ~250 minutes for each thus far so there is some reason to be skeptical of what the stats tell us. But they still intrigue me anyways. Here's the comparison based on a per-36 minute basis for their careers:

Ajinca - 13.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, .438 TS%, 8.6 PER
Mahinmi - 20.7 points, 10.9 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, .657 TS%, 22.3 PER

So when you look at their performance thus far in their careers, Ajinca has looked like a JAG and Mahinmi has produced like an all-star. Granted, I don't think Mahinmi is really an all-star and this is probably where that small sample size is deceptive for us. However, when you see a guy that has been this productive in limited minutes, it really makes me want to see what the guy can do if he gets some regular minutes. So in a scenario where the regular backup seems to get benched to send a message, why not play Mahinmi here?

I don't quite buy that we really needed to spread out the Spurs defense. I don't think Ajinca has given the Spurs enough reason to fear his range. So you're maybe hoping you can catch the Spurs off-guard at best.

Underdog · 12-31-2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Ajinca wasn't in their to draw the Spurs out of their defensive scheme of packing the paint. Popovich isn't an idiot, and I don't expect Carlisle thinks that he's one, either. Ajinca was in there because he was the only option at backup center (i.e., shotblocking presence) with the ability to take what the Spurs' defense was willing to concede.

Hmm, I guess I hadn't considered that perspective - I thought he was in there to draw the defense out, but taking advantage of what they'd concede makes more sense.

Still, he didn't sink any of those long shots so it didn't really make a difference.

Underdog · 12-31-2010, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I have to say that part of the reason that I've been hard on Ajinca is because I'm of the belief that Mahinmi is the superior player in most respects. Now I don't have the privilege of getting to watch practices like you do unfortunately so all I have to go on is what they've done so far in limited playing time during their careers. And Mahinmi's production completely dwarfs Ajinca's thus far. Now we're working with a career sample size of ~250 minutes for each thus far so there is some reason to be skeptical of what the stats tell us. But they still intrigue me anyways. Here's the comparison based on a per-36 minute basis for their careers:

Ajinca - 13.8 points, 6.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks, .438 TS%, 8.6 PER
Mahinmi - 20.7 points, 10.9 rebounds, 2.1 blocks, .657 TS%, 22.3 PER

So when you look at their performance thus far in their careers, Ajinca has looked like a JAG and Mahinmi has produced like an all-star. Granted, I don't think Mahinmi is really an all-star and this is probably where that small sample size is deceptive for us. However, when you see a guy that has been this productive in limited minutes, it really makes me want to see what the guy can do if he gets some regular minutes. So in a scenario where the regular backup seems to get benched to send a message, why not play Mahinmi here?

I don't quite buy that we really needed to spread out the Spurs defense. I don't think Ajinca has given the Spurs enough reason to fear his range. So you're maybe hoping you can catch the Spurs off-guard at best.

Exactly - it doesn't matter HOW you get your points, but THAT you get your points...

(the rebounding and defense would have been a lot more useful too...)

BGMaverick9 · 12-31-2010, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

The reason given for his benching last night was that we wanted to match up differently with the Spurs. If Haywood can't play in a zone that's not a match up issue it's a personnel issue and he shouldn't be our back up center. I don't think that's the case though. I didn't think he struggled playing zone last year and don't think he has this year when his head's been in the game. He's long enough and smart enough to be a good help side defender, which is basically what the zone asks him to do. I also have a hard time believing that a player as raw as Ajinca has a better understanding of our zone concepts.

This was supposed to be an offensive move but, like I said, he's going to to get the respect of the defense just by being out there and on most nights he's not going to get enough shots to make teams pay for ignoring him anyway. Maybe later in the year when he starts showing up on scouting reports but not at this point.

Going off of your point and gmc's point. What I meant to say in my original post is Wood is capable in both scenarios, man or zone, but he's better served as a man defender, manning up on Duncan and won't give you much of anything on offense. If that's the case, I would say let's see what we can do in a zone D and try to take what the Spurs D is giving with perimeter shots - that would mean a big is necessary who can hit an outside jumper. They might have sacrificed defense for offense but they held the Spurs below their season average in scoring...again.

So the trade-off might have actually worked if something shots go in. It's not just Ajinca, it's 2 free throws here and there and the obvious hole from Terry.

Sure, they could have made a different adjustment with the bigs. That would make sense for the suggestion of Cardinal and Marion as your bigs...but they went with Ajinca. They believed in Ajinca and still do, the shots just didn't go down.

BGMaverick9 · 12-31-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I don't quite buy that we really needed to spread out the Spurs defense. I don't think Ajinca has given the Spurs enough reason to fear his range. So you're maybe hoping you can catch the Spurs off-guard at best.

I don't want things to get twisted, I'm a much bigger fan of Mahinmi than Ajinca but I can see why they went the way they did.

What's so wrong with the theory in the quote? Teams, especially the Mavericks, do that all of the time. Like I said, it's a "surprise" factor since the Spurs know Ian much better than they know Lex. You're looking for a spark to put you over the top.

I still go back the difference they see between the two bigs is the range factor. They wouldn't throw him out there if they didn't have faith in his abilities. It's a different story if he makes those shots, then Carlisle is seen as an uber-genius. It's just a roll of the dice and you move on.

Rick41 · 12-31-2010, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Why on earth would you play Ajinca as your 2nd big on a night when Dirk's out unless you're going to give him the green light to shoot from range. Disagree with the choice of giving him 11 minutes if you like - I think the logic behind it is perfectly sound, even if it can be argued that other options would have been better - but you're kind of missing the point if your going to question him being allowed to shoot given that he was in the game. I can all but guarantee that if he'd been gun shy he would've gotten the hook.

I didn't mind him being on the court, he showed some flashes of offense on some plays but the overall fact that he was allowed to shoot as many 3s as he did is absurd. He may hit them in practice but they aren't translating onto the real court and that's where they count. The one shot he did make in OKC really fooled the coaching staff. I hope eventually Ajinca does start to hit his shots and prove me wrong, but at the time it's just not his game. (to step out that far)

dude1394 · 12-31-2010, 07:35 PM

I like a guy who's not afraid to put them up. I think JJB has gotten REALLY gunshy and it's effecting everything he's doing.

If you are open in an nba game shoot it it it's a good shot.

LonghornDub · 12-31-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Ajinca wasn't in their to draw the Spurs out of their defensive scheme of packing the paint. Popovich isn't an idiot, and I don't expect Carlisle thinks that he's one, either. Ajinca was in there because he was the only option at backup center (i.e., shotblocking presence) with the ability to take what the Spurs' defense was willing to concede.

I don't think these two things are mutually exclusive at all.

jthig32 · 12-31-2010, 08:05 PM

Wow, can't believe the Ajincia decision is causing this amount of discussion. I think people are WAY overrating Mahinmi's defense and to a lesser extent his rebounding. Ian's certainly better at those two aspects of the game than AA, but not enough, imo, to claim that Ian should have played in order to shore up those areas.

I also don't really understand the "doesn't matter how you get your points" argument. This was clearly a strategic move to try and exploit a perceived weakness of the Spurs. The paint was very tightly packed last night; JJ and Jet had absolutely no room to operate out there. Trying to find some extra offense from different areas seems like an obvious choice to me.

I didn't think Ajincia played very well last night, but at no point did I think "Ian could really help here".

And just to clarify, I absolutely think Ian's a better player right now. But Rick was clearly trying to push a particular button last night. Didn't work, but I'm not really sure how many other buttons he had.

grndmstr_c · 12-31-2010, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't think these two things are mutually exclusive at all.

Wasn't suggesting they were. Certainly the two motivations coincide quite nicely when Dirk is in the game. But Pop wasn't going to change the gameplan to account for Ajinca based on reputation alone. I'm only arguing that in this situation, the guy with range got the minutes because he's shown the coaching staff that he's got the ability to make the open shots he was almost certain to get, not because his presence was expected to create scoring opportunities for other guys.

LonghornDub · 12-31-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Wasn't suggesting they were. Certainly the two motivations coincide quite nicely when Dirk is in the game. But Pop wasn't going to change the gameplan to account for Ajinca based on reputation alone. I'm only arguing that in this situation, the guy with range got the minutes because he's shown the coaching staff that he's got the ability to make the open shots he was almost certain to get, not because his presence was expected to create scoring opportunities for other guys.

Oh, well I agree with that completely. I guess I misunderstood. I didn't think anybody was saying "we put him out there to get other guys open looks."

When I referenced the Spurs packing the lane earlier in the thread, what I meant was exactly what you said. When the Spurs do that, if we don't have guys who can hit outside shots, we falter.

wilmtalk · 12-31-2010, 08:49 PM

No one has been as critical of RC as I have for the last few years. But I wish to say that his coaching has vastly improved this year. He has turned around and corrected the mistakes he made last year. The fact that he tries variations in the offense with younger players during the regular season which might be of some use in the playoffs is a plus in my book. Last year I thought he was too concerned about the reg season record and did not give younger players the experience they needed to give him the confidence to use them in the playoffs.

They might also be deciding how to use or even which big men they might want to keep. You can't do that unless you play them to find out which would have the greatest value to the team. It's more about the play offs and not only having a good regular season record. RC might have felt that the Spurs game was the ideal time to experiment since they were favored and most likely would win anyway. If it works great. If not at least you are not throwing away a game you should have won anyway. As well as the Spurs are playing they are a major obstical in the playoffs and it would be to the Mavs advantage to find out what would work against them now rather than wait till the playoffs too experiment. The shots don't have to drop to see if the concept works. You are still able to see if it can get you open looks.

xrobx · 01-01-2011, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Wow, can't believe the Ajincia decision is causing this amount of discussion.

when the center we resigned to a 6 year 55 million dollar contract is now getting DNP's and our new #2 center is a 7'1 three point shooting project center who was a 4th stringer that didn't even suit up for most games this year, that's usually gonna create a lot of discussion

Popeye · 01-01-2011, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Agree with all of this.

People, not jthig, need to understand that if the situation calls for it then RC is going to away from Haywood. Pop is smart enough to go for the Hack-a-Wood and Haywood's game wasn't going to be that effective in a game against the "new" Spurs, especially if Dirk is out of the game. The Spurs are more inclined to push the tempo - that doesn't work for Haywood. The Mavericks needed to stretch the floor on offense - that doesn't work with Haywood in.

Mahinmi and Ajinca are both seen as players who can play the 5, Ajinca is the only guy out of the two who is seen as a 4 based on his ability to extend outside with the range. He was better suited to get minutes based on the matchup and the situation.

So I guess no big deal that our $8MM/year center is getting a DNP CD in the biggest game of the year. I don't disagree with the decision, and I understand Carlisle's thinking, but it's pathetic how little the mavs are getting out of their off-season investment. It's an instant regret type of thing and I guarantee the mavs would love a do over on that contract.

dude1394 · 01-01-2011, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrobx

when the center we resigned to a 6 year 55 million dollar contract is now getting DNP's and our new #2 center is a 7'1 three point shooting project center who was a 4th stringer that didn't even suit up for most games this year, that's usually gonna create a lot of discussion

A very good point. I don't think Ajinca cost us much, but it is a pretty big matza ball we had sitting on the bench over there.

Gray Sage · 01-01-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Cut the Terry hate. He had a bad game, but he's won us games in the 4th quarter this year. Sure, it's disappointing, but it doesn't deserve him getting two pages of people bashing him. He just didn't have it tonight.

Terry is the new Stackhouse. He's a liability and needs to go but people will defend him just like they did Stackhouse. The guy is singlehandedly loosing games for the Mavericks and just like Stackhouse he's so boneheaded he won't admit it.

LonghornDub · 01-01-2011, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gray Sage

Terry is the new Stackhouse. He's a liability and needs to go but people will defend him just like they did Stackhouse. The guy is singlehandedly loosing games for the Mavericks and just like Stackhouse he's so boneheaded he won't admit it.

Yeah, Stackhouse was totally one of the top 10 fourth quarter scorers in the NBA. Great comparison.

Gray Sage · 01-01-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yeah, Stackhouse was totally one of the top 10 fourth quarter scorers in the NBA. Great comparison.

Stackhouse was a moron that refused to acknowledge he was washed up. Terry is exactly the same, he's always going to be the hero....except when he isn't, which is 98% of the time.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-01-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gray Sage

Stackhouse was a moron that refused to acknowledge he was washed up. Terry is exactly the same, he's always going to be the hero....except when he isn't, which is 98% of the time.

Exaggeration.

LonghornDub · 01-01-2011, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gray Sage

Stackhouse was a moron that refused to acknowledge he was washed up. Terry is exactly the same, he's always going to be the hero....except when he isn't, which is 98% of the time.

Ok, Cad. They're exactly the same.

Well, except the countless ways in which they're different, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Exaggeration.

What?! Phhh...no. 98%, bro. Ninety-eight percent.