Jason Kidd for Baron Davis and Marcus Camby? - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dayman · 02-11-2009, 12:04 AM

i think we should wait it out, could we really afford to mix up our chemistry right now a 1/2 game outta 4th....to much of a risk if you ask me. I do think we should definitely go after a good 2 guard before the deadline.....salmons maybe

dude1394 · 02-11-2009, 12:21 AM

I don't think another 2 guard is going to get us over the top. We'll be better...but not as good a we would with a scoring center.

jthig32 · 02-11-2009, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

What's the point of keeping Kidd if we're not going to win a championship? You NEED to mix things up, or else Cuban might as well blow the whole damn thing up. His pockets are deep enough for Davis, and besides that, the real prize of the deal is Kaman (or Camby).

His contract may be horrible, but if he was motivated to win a ring (and i'd like to think all NBA players want to win at least one...), playing fourth fiddle to Dirk, Howard, and Kaman doesn't seem like such a bad role for him. Would he be an overpriced fourth option? Hell yeah, but what's the point of bragging about an owner with deep pockets if he's not going to use them?

He will (and curerntly does) use them. But this isn't baseball; you can't correct a mistake by simply spending more. Baron Davis has a horrendous contract. You can't tie yourself to that kind of deal long term and expect to be successful.

dude1394 · 02-11-2009, 12:28 AM

why is 11million for a guy 29 "horrendous". It's not great but it's not much different than josh's is it? Or devins for that matter?

jthig32 · 02-11-2009, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

why is 11million for a guy 29 "horrendous". It's not great but it's not much different than josh's is it? Or devins for that matter?

What?

Davis is owed 54 million over the next four seasons (after this one).

Before last year (his contract year) Davis had averaged 56 games played over five seasons. His game is largely based on athleticism and has a history of knee problems (including two major knee surgeries).

It's a horrendous contract.

alby · 02-11-2009, 12:54 AM

Kidd owns. enough said.

eyedentifyme · 02-11-2009, 01:18 AM

It's because Baron Davis is Penny Hardaway with bad knees all over again who only plays like 2 games per season. I would look into trying to get Camby by himself if we can without giving up Josh, Dirk, Kidd, and Terry. Bass is cheap and has more upside over Camby.

This Trade Succeeded! Go back to adjust your trade or start over.
Dallas Mavericks

Incoming Players
Photo: Marcus Camby
Marcus Camby
Salary: $10,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 11.6 REB: 12.7 AST: 2.2 PER: 20.29

Outgoing Players: Shawne Williams, Jerry Stackhouse, Brandon Bass, James Singleton

Los Angeles Clippers

Incoming Players
Photo: Shawne Williams
Shawne Williams
Salary: $1,572,960 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 2.8 REB: 3.1 AST: 0.1 PER: 7.58
Photo: Jerry Stackhouse
Jerry Stackhouse
Salary: $7,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 5.3 REB: 1.9 AST: 1.1 PER: 4.70
Photo: Brandon Bass
Brandon Bass
Salary: $826,269 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 8.4 REB: 4.5 AST: 0.5 PER: 15.44
Photo: James Singleton
James Singleton
Salary: $797,581 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 3.6 REB: 2.9 AST: 0.1 PER: 14.15

Outgoing Players: Marcus Camby

Kidd/Howard/Wright/Dirk/Camby ; Barea/George/Green/Hollins/Damp; Terry (injured);

Tokey41 · 02-11-2009, 01:57 AM

You sacrifice taking a horrible contract to be a contender because, once again, we aren't winning a championship as constructed. So if Cuban doesn't do something to improve (and overall this trade would certainly be an improvement) then he might as well blow it up. Pick an extreme, because being mediocore is something Cuban has always said he doesn't want to be... wake up Cubes, thats what we are.

I would take Davis and his horrible contract and try for a title for 3-4 more years than waste Dirks prime and hold on to him (likely a little too long) before trading him for something of value. Josh, Kaman, and Davis are all in their 20's and Dirk will not break down the way many big men do in his mid 30's (he doesn't go into the post and get roughed up as often as many PF's, I'm thinking he'll be more healthy than the average but thats just me).

eyedentifyme · 02-11-2009, 03:16 AM

The Mavs Brain Trust said they're going to be giving Kidd a 1 year extension for around 10 mill. to 12 mill., Kidd will not turn that down because other teams are not going to give him that much. We will still be mediocre after this trade, see Phoenix Suns with talent in all 5 positions (Nash, Barbosa, Hill, Amare, Shaq) and they still aren't doing that good. A trade should get legitimate pieces to help us big time, not leave us being still mediocre; or a trade should give us some flexibility to rebuild on the fly like freeing up lots of cap space to sign 1 or 2 big time free agents, giving us some up and coming stars, and giving us a couple of draft picks. We've never been under the cap to be able to sign big time free agents. If you say we signed Finley or Dirk to big contracts, that's because they were already with this team.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 02-11-2009, 07:59 AM

How do you know how this team will be with talent at all 5 positions? Dirk has had to do it almost completely by himself since Nash and Finley left. The reason we got owned by Miami, NO and GS in the playoffs is because they took him out and there was no one else to step up. You can't do that so easily when you got B. Davis, Kamby who can take the heat off Dirk offensively. I think we have a much better chance with those two than with Kidd who isn't an offensive threat and still allows teams to take Dirk out with double teams.

Let's just be honest about how things really are, Cuban won't do this trade only because then he would be admitting he made a mistake in the trade a year ago, and he's too stubborn to do that.

jthig32 · 02-11-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

You sacrifice taking a horrible contract to be a contender because, once again, we aren't winning a championship as constructed. So if Cuban doesn't do something to improve (and overall this trade would certainly be an improvement) then he might as well blow it up. Pick an extreme, because being mediocore is something Cuban has always said he doesn't want to be... wake up Cubes, thats what we are.

I would take Davis and his horrible contract and try for a title for 3-4 more years than waste Dirks prime and hold on to him (likely a little too long) before trading him for something of value. Josh, Kaman, and Davis are all in their 20's and Dirk will not break down the way many big men do in his mid 30's (he doesn't go into the post and get roughed up as often as many PF's, I'm thinking he'll be more healthy than the average but thats just me).

Well I completely disagree that this would make the Mavs a contender. That's the point.

I think folks are really affected by Davis' play in the that playoff series against us. He's very over rated on this board.

jthig32 · 02-11-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

How do you know how this team will be with talent at all 5 positions? Dirk has had to do it almost completely by himself since Nash and Finley left. The reason we got owned by Miami, NO and GS in the playoffs is because they took him out and there was no one else to step up. You can't do that so easily when you got B. Davis, Kamby who can take the heat off Dirk offensively. I think we have a much better chance with those two than with Kidd who isn't an offensive threat and still allows teams to take Dirk out with double teams.

Let's just be honest about how things really are, Cuban won't do this trade only because then he would be admitting he made a mistake in the trade a year ago, and he's too stubborn to do that.

How does this give us talent at all five positions? It's a downgrade at PG and an upgrade (in some areas) at center.

It's also a downgrade at SG because you will pay defensively much more often with Davis/Jet in the back court than you do right now with Kidd/Jet.

The only way you make this deal is if you are absolutely convinced that Kidd will walk this offseason and you don't feel confident that you can put the resulting cap space to use in 2010.

MX425 · 02-11-2009, 08:25 AM

At first I was all for this trade, but the more I think about it, the more I think shooting it down was the right move. Perhaps Cubes is hoping since the Clips did the calling they are getting desperate, and look what we did last year when we were desperate; way overpaid. If no one else will take this contract and they really want to shed payroll, maybe they will sweeten the deal with a yougn talent or Draft picks.

alexamenos · 02-11-2009, 08:31 AM

I'd have to think twice about this thing....both Kaman and B-Dizzle miss a lot of games, and life belongs to those who show up.

Sportstudi · 02-11-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

What?

Davis is owed 54 million over the next four seasons (after this one).

Before last year (his contract year) Davis had averaged 56 games played over five seasons. His game is largely based on athleticism and has a history of knee problems (including two major knee surgeries).

It's a horrendous contract.

Yep. Moreover, he is injury prone and his head is more outside the game than into it these days. If it was for Kaman only to press the trigger, I think Cubes would have thought more about it. Maybe if Kaman is healthy, even with the deadweight of Davis.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-11-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I agree with this post. This would solve two problems that we have immediately. 1..a player who could get points during winnin' time. And 2. A center that can score.

I like jkiddo...but I don't see a problem with this deal.

It's looking like teams care more about saving money now than winning.

When I first heard about this I was livid but at the same time it shows the Mavericks can indeed get a pretty good deal with what they have to trade.

I don't really know what the FO is thinking. Do they want to win a championship or do they want to save money? Looking like the latter....

Flacolaco · 02-11-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

What?

Davis is owed 54 million over the next four seasons (after this one).

Before last year (his contract year) Davis had averaged 56 games played over five seasons. His game is largely based on athleticism and has a history of knee problems (including two major knee surgeries).

It's a horrendous contract.

I gagree with this.

And dang, I need to click on the "trade" section more often I guess. I had to hear it from Norm on the radio that the Mavericks turned down Kaman/Baron for Kidd.

alby · 02-11-2009, 12:08 PM

Smart move by Cuban, if true.

dalger · 02-11-2009, 12:29 PM

It could indeed turn out to be a smart move, even though I'm not sure I would've done the same thing if I'd been in Cuban's position. Maybe I'm just too desperate to see something happen. The hope for a championship remains, but when you have these hopes it's a little discouraging to go on with the current team and expect another first-round defeat in the playoffs. On top of that, we can't even be sure to make the playoffs due to JET's injury. Stack's contract alone likely won't get it done.

alby · 02-11-2009, 01:01 PM

Since the 2-7 start (which I contribute to mainly Rick Carlisle getting his mojo back in coaching), we've gone 29-13 for a winning percentage of .690

Don't get me wrong, I am not completely satisfied with the make up of our current roster, but after allowing this trade scenario to soak in for a few days, I think it was the right decision for the franchise, both for today and for the future.

Furthermore, even though Baron Davis is my favorite point guard in the NBA (this was true before the 2007 series against Dallas), he ultimately would not guarantee us a championship. Baron has missed 144 games in the last 7 years for an average of 20.5 games a season. To put that in perspective, Dirk has missed a total of 30 games in 11 years and that is including all those ankle injuries, Karl Malone elbows, and the countless unfair suspensions from the NBA.

At initial hearing, I thought this would be a no-brainer. We would be getting back two starters while only giving up one, but it really isn't that simple especially with Kidd and Damp both respectively playing well this year for the Mavericks. One of the needs of the team is trying to acquire a low post scorer, but by no means does that mean you need a center to fulfill that need. You can pick up swingmen that play in the post and get to the FT line (Maggette and others). Also, I for one actually like the offensive and defensive capabilities of a Dirk/Damp front court.

Underdog · 02-11-2009, 01:02 PM

I hope Cubes turned down a Kidd for Davis/Kaman trade because he has a MUCH better trade lined up...

(here's to hoping...)

dalger · 02-11-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

Since the 2-7 start (which I contribute to mainly Rick Carlisle getting his mojo back in coaching), we've gone 29-13 for a winning percentage of .690

Don't get me wrong, I am not completely satisfied with the make up of our current roster, but after allowing this trade scenario to soak in for a few days, I think it was the right decision for the franchise, both for today and for the future.

Furthermore, even though Baron Davis is my favorite point guard in the NBA (this was true before the 2007 series against Dallas), he ultimately would not guarantee us a championship. Baron has missed 144 games in the last 7 years for an average of 20.5 games a season. To put that in perspective, Dirk has missed a total of 30 games in 11 years and that is including all those ankle injuries, Karl Malone elbows, and the countless unfair suspensions from the NBA.

At initial hearing, I thought this would be a no-brainer. We would be getting back two starters while only giving up one, but it really isn't that simple especially with Kidd and Damp both respectively playing well this year for the Mavericks. One of the needs of the team is trying to acquire a low post scorer, but by no means does that mean you need a center to fulfill that need. You can pick up swingmen that play in the post and get to the FT line (Maggette and others). Also, I for one actually like the offensive and defensive capabilities of a Dirk/Damp front court.

What I initially failed to realize is that we would've needed a motivated AND healthy Davis. He's clearly had injury issues in the past, as you pointed out, and will probably continue to have them as he gets older, so your points are fairly justified. I was looking at his numbers and his impact on us during the playoffs two years ago, but a player doesn't help you on paper and when he's troubled with injuries. We would certainly have taken a risk if we had agreed to a trade.

Still, the option to have Kaman on our team as well for years to come looked intriguing to me. There aren't many centers of his calibre in this league with a reasonable contract. I can imagine worse scenarios than having Kaman under contract until 2012. We could have also used Damp's $12 million contract next February to improve other parts of the team. We can still do it, but we would somehow have to get a center in which seems difficult these days. After all, there are teams willing to pay a guy like Diop $6.5 millions a year.

Assuming that we don't trade Kidd, it takes away a great possibility to change this team and hopefully make it a contender. As great as he unquestionably is, his contract might be even better. Additionally, we can't even be sure to have him on the team next season.

I just hope that the front office has something in store that makes this team better. Granted we've been 29-13 after our slow start, but we've also lost twice to the Lakers, twice to the Nuggets, and once to the Spurs at home. We'd be likely to face one of those three teams in the first round of the playoffs.

ghazi · 02-11-2009, 03:20 PM

The 29-13 record is somewhat fools gold anyway... we've had so many close calls and 4th quarter rallies, probably "should've" lost 1-2 more games than we have.

Sportstudi · 02-11-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I hope Cubes turned down a Kidd for Davis/Kaman trade because he has a MUCH better trade lined up...

(here's to hoping...)

the only one (which is in the rumors as well right now) I could figure out would be Shaq/Barnes for JHo/Stack

Underdog · 02-11-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

The 29-13 record is somewhat fools gold anyway... we've had so many close calls and 4th quarter rallies, probably "should've" lost 1-2 more games than we have.

The Miami Heat "should've" lost the Finals against us, but they didn't...

There ain't no style points in the NBA - the team with the most points on the board when the game clock expires is the winner (no matter how they pull it off...)

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 02-11-2009, 03:58 PM

"It doesnt matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning."

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-11-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I hope Cubes turned down a Kidd for Davis/Kaman trade because he has a MUCH better trade lined up...

(here's to hoping...)

With all of the rumors, they probably have plenty of doable deals that they are looking over.

Hopefully...

Why not try to get Kaman without giving up Kidd and without getting Davis back?

That would be something the org should press hard on. I could care less about Davis, but Kaman should still be tops on the radar.

Underdog · 02-11-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Why not try to get Kaman without giving up Kidd and without getting Davis back?

Nobody ever said we weren't trying to... All I've heard so far is that Kidd for Davis/Kaman isn't happening - that doesn't mean another deal with the Clips isn't in the works...

(still - here's to hoping...)

mac222b · 02-11-2009, 05:25 PM

SOMETHING must be in the works, right? I don't see how we do better than Baron/Kaman. I love Kidd, love the intangibles but he doesn't get to the rim. At all. We would even still have Stack with which to get another defensive oriented guard to help out in that regard.

NYMAVGUY · 02-11-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quietsavant

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...ge=dime-090203

Dirk is a special player. He needs help though, he can't play defense and he's PERCEIVED as not being tough. This makes people play him certain ways that are to his detriment.

NYMAVGUY · 02-11-2009, 06:02 PM

How about, GET READY,

Kidd for Shaq. Shaq's game compliments Dirk's. Inside to Shaq nothing there shoot it back outside to Dirk. And without a question vice versa. and they can play slower because neither Run. I personally would compliment that trade with Ron Artest for JHo. Houston is ready to get rid of Artest.

What do you guys think about that?

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 02-11-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYMAVGUY

How about, GET READY,

Kidd for Shaq. Shaq's game compliments Dirk's. Inside to Shaq nothing there shoot it back outside to Dirk. And without a question vice versa. and they can play slower because neither Run. I personally would compliment that trade with Ron Artest for JHo. Houston is ready to get rid of Artest.

What do you guys think about that?

Then who's our PG the next month? Barea? JET is hurt. Yuck.

MX425 · 02-11-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

Then who's our PG the next month? Barea? JET is hurt. Yuck.

Agree with you on the PG for the next month. If felton had gone down I think i would be feeling fine. Not loving what we got for diop so far. I think Kidd needs to stay. Wasn't for this at first, and the idea he would resign in 30 days would be nice but what if he bolted.

frankvizza · 02-11-2009, 06:30 PM

if we trade kidd , it has to be for kaman daves and camby , we will need to throw in bass , baron davis when healthy will win us a championship , look what he did to our 67 win season in the first rounf of the playoffs , kaman is dirks pal he will help us big time , and camby we no will be our defensive stopper ,, if we don;t do a bass lets do a dampier , lets win this championship ,

MX425 · 02-11-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankvizza

if we trade kidd , it has to be for kaman daves and camby , we will need to throw in bass , baron davis when healthy will win us a championship , look what he did to our 67 win season in the first rounf of the playoffs , kaman is dirks pal he will help us big time , and camby we no will be our defensive stopper ,, if we don;t do a bass lets do a dampier , lets win this championship ,

clips won't take damp, dealing to save money.

Thomas86 · 02-11-2009, 07:45 PM

That's a lot of salary that the Mavs would be taking on. Davis and Kamen are always injured. I think this drives home a strong message that the Mavs want the cap space/flexibilty in 2010.

TheMaverick · 02-12-2009, 02:33 AM

Clippers center Chris Kaman is scheduled to return to practice, and possibly game action, next week.
He’s been out since late November with a strained left arch and the reports about his injury have been dismal, but coach Mike Dunleavy finally thinks he might be close to a return. "We should get him back for 25-plus games," Dunleavy said after Wednesday's game. While we're still not completely convinced he'll return to form this season, this news is a good reason to pick him up if you need a center and he's been dropped in your league. Feb. 12 - 1:55 am et

ghazi · 02-12-2009, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The Miami Heat "should've" lost the Finals against us, but they didn't...

There ain't no style points in the NBA - the team with the most points on the board when the game clock expires is the winner (no matter how they pull it off...)

Yeah, they should've. F'ng BS.

I don't think style matters, but it gives us an idea of what we can see in the future. our numerous close calls, + the fact that we've lost by 19+ 7 times shakes my confidence in how this team will perform in a best of 7. If we were blowing teams out more consistently, and lost 2-3 by 19+ instead of SEVEN, I'd feel much better about our beloved Mavs.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 02-12-2009, 05:35 PM

wrong thread

horse900703 · 02-15-2009, 08:47 AM

The Mavs recently rejected a deal that would have sent them the Clippers' Baron Davis. Looking to move Davis, who they signed last summer to a free-agent contract in excess of $60 million, the Clippers wanted Jason Kidd in return. But Dallas doesn't want to move the former Net, whose contract comes off the books in July.