More Shaq talk - a sensible T&D thread. - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 04-08-2009, 11:06 AM

How do we make a move "bigger than Shaq" when our most valuable assets also happen to be positions of need? (unless we're talking about trading Dirk for Kobe...)

I don't see how Damp, Stack and Howard yield a starting 2, 3 and 5 (because that's what we'll lack if we trade those guys - even if you keep Josh, Damp/Stack isn't going to get you "bigger than Shaq" without leaving a gaping hole at the 5...)

jthig32 · 04-08-2009, 12:02 PM

I think Stack could absolutely yield a starting 2 if the right set of circumstances comes along.

Underdog · 04-08-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think Stack could absolutely yield a starting 2 if the right set of circumstances comes along.

I agree that Stack can yield a starting shooting guard under the right circumstances, but I'm still not convinced that the Mavs can make a splash "bigger than Shaq" without giving up Damp and/or Howard (which leaves a hole at the 3 or 5, unless we're trading for someone who plays the same position...)

Underdog · 04-08-2009, 12:49 PM

Also, I'm not convinced that the financial landscape is as bad for millionaire franchise owners as the media makes it out to be...

Remember that frenzy of cost-cutting trades this past deadline? Me neither - the NBA looked no different than it did when the economy was perceptibly better (because there's ALWAYS teams looking to save money instead of competing for a championship...)

Cuban better rely on his instincts rather than his pocketbook because I doubt any owners in the league are going to make us a contender just so they can save a bit of cash (well, not any owners who have players we actually want...)

MX425 · 04-08-2009, 01:20 PM

I think that the trainers Dallas has will be equal to if not better then the ones Pheonix has. DOn't forget we have the trainer to the Redeem Team. For further proof look at Dirk and Jet's track record of injury time and Kidd has only missed one game all year.

I think Shaq with a summer off like we just gave him on Sunday will be fine for one more run.

Underdog · 04-08-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MX425

I think Shaq with a summer off like we just gave him on Sunday will be fine for one more run.

BURN!!!

('eff the Suns...)

jthig32 · 04-08-2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Also, I'm not convinced that the financial landscape is as bad for millionaire franchise owners as the media makes it out to be...

Remember that frenzy of cost-cutting trades this past deadline? Me neither - the NBA looked no different than it did when the economy was perceptibly better (because there's ALWAYS teams looking to save money instead of competing for a championship...)

Cuban better rely on his instincts rather than his pocketbook because I doubt any owners in the league are going to make us a contender just so they can save a bit of cash (well, not any owners who have players we actually want...)

Two things:

1. That's not really true. New Orleans gave Tysaon Chandler away, it just so happened that the trade was rescinded. That's a team on the rise, and they traded their only center away to save money. Phoenix very nearly traded Shaq for nothing but expirings when they were desperately trying to stay in the playoff race. The Lakers also dumped a rotation player in order to save money. There's always teams looking to save money but title contenders dumping rotation players (or their third best player in New Orleans' case) is quite rare, no?

2. The speculation has always been that the biggest issues will start next season. The financial crisis hit after season tickets had already been sold for this season. Next season is when the NBA should be hit the hardest financially. Also, teams in the West had to weigh saving money on salary against trying to make the playoffs to rake in the profits from home playoff games. I expect things to be much worse this offseason.

Underdog · 04-08-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

2. The speculation has always been that the biggest issues will start next season. The financial crisis hit after season tickets had already been sold for this season. Next season is when the NBA should be hit the hardest financially. Also, teams in the West had to weigh saving money on salary against trying to make the playoffs to rake in the profits from home playoff games. I expect things to be much worse this offseason.

You don't have much faith in Obama's magic wand, do you?

(and I still think it'll take more than Cuban's pocketbook to save the Mavs - throwing $21mil at Kidd certainly didn't get us any closer to a ring, did it?)

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-08-2009, 03:51 PM

I think the issue is that other teams will probably have JUST expirings to trade as well. Now, if they are up for trading to take on more salary is debatable. Portland and Cleveland seemed to have little issue in taking on salary at the deadline. I do think the Mavs will have to sweeten the pot with something other than just expirings to get something done this summer. Just my gut though. Who knows how this whole economy thing plays out...

I guess I just hope the Mavs find the best trade available, even if it means giving up a Howard.

purplefrog · 04-08-2009, 03:56 PM

If the Mavs land Shaq, then the question of what to do with JHo becomes even more interesting. I think it's very possible that Shaq's big personality will keep JHo focussed. Shaq won't be shy about calling out JHo if he acts like an imbecile. On the other hand, JHo's recent play while injured makes his trade value higher than it was over summer '08 (and this entire season for that matter). Summer '09 might be the best opportunity to trade him given his favorable contract.

jthig32 · 04-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I think the issue is that other teams will probably have JUST expirings to trade as well. Now, if they are up for trading to take on more salary is debatable. Portland and Cleveland seemed to have little issue in taking on salary at the deadline. I do think the Mavs will have to sweeten the pot with something other than just expirings to get something done this summer. Just my gut though. Who knows how this whole economy thing plays out...

I guess I just hope the Mavs find the best trade available, even if it means giving up a Howard.

But few, if any, teams will have the immediate expiring that Stack's contract is. That's key.

Regular expiring don't save teams any money next season unless they reduce payroll slightly in the process of the trade.

eyedentifyme · 04-08-2009, 04:58 PM

Whatever they decide to do, they need to bring in some additional talent in here maybe 2 or three players through sign trades involving Damp, Stack, Josh, Carroll, our 1st rounder, and with our full MLE.

AxdemxO · 04-08-2009, 05:47 PM

We need to check into a possible Josh to the Bucks for Jefferson/ 1st round pick or Villenueva> The bucks will def. need to shed money. We can look at many possibilities. That iclude their 1at round pick, Jefferson, Villenueva, Redd and possibly others. They will def. want to get rid of guys.

MaVs 41 BaLler · 04-08-2009, 06:00 PM

The deal is supposedly: Shaq for Dampier/Stack

Janett_Reno · 04-08-2009, 07:06 PM

Shaq would help keep Dirk, Kidd and Terry here in Dallas. Shaq is a shell of what he was but a shell of what he was is better than 75 to 80% of all centers in the nba. Look at his shooting %. If you double Shaq, then he can kick it to Dirk or Terry and teams can't double all three of those guys. Terry and Dirk has needed a center for years or a post player and Kidd has needed one for years. I am not taking anything away from Damp because maybe teams would score a 120 on us a night with out him and Howard but we have not had any post play.

Chandler would also fit Kidd and if i was Paul i would tell his front office no, Chandler must stay. We would need a fairy good back up with Shaq being injury prone and older now but this is worth a shot. This would make us have an inside/outside game and when is the last time the Mavs ever had an inside game? It takes away from Dirk and Terry not having an inside game. I hope we get him, or them or a good inside man.

mavs777 · 04-08-2009, 08:21 PM

They want to lose money, get younger, and get draft picks, so what about this. Damp/ 2 future first round picks/ and Bass, Wright or Singleton for Shaq (I would prefer to keep Bass though)

mavs777 · 04-08-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas86

Why does everybody like Andrei Kirilenko?...I don't think Kirilenko and Dirk even like each other plus why would the Jazz help the Mavs out like that?......anyway I would only offer Damp and Stackhouse for Shaq because Howard for Shaq would be like trading Kidd for Harris again, If we get Shaq then were gonna have to put alot of shooters around him because Shaq get's alot of double teams.

If we would trade Howard I would want a guy like Gerald Wallace not Shaq, Josh is way too much to just get Shaq, I agree with you on AK I don't think he would fit the team well.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 04-09-2009, 12:54 AM

When I read about the Cuban/Shaq meeting, it almost seems like they had sex or something.

Quote:

Shaq found me. Wish I could say what happened. I kept my cool.

mac222b · 04-09-2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

When I read about the Cuban/Shaq meeting, it almost seems like they had sex or something.

LOL dude!

mac222b · 04-09-2009, 02:15 AM

If we get Shaq keeping J-Ho suddenly seems a much more attractive option. We only move him if we get a deal we can't refuse. But no way we include him in a deal for Shaq. Our sweetener in any deal would be our 1st round pick. Unless we can draft another Sam Cassell at #21(the last rookie who helped a team win a championship?). I don't see how we make a bigger splash than Shaq though. I don't see Bosh being traded. And wouldn't the Raptors want more than what we have? Would J-Ho, Stack and our 1st get us Bosh? Probably not quite. The real question will be: if we can get a player like Kaman or Gerald Wallace or Baron Davis or S-Jax(just examples) for Stack essentially straight up, thus keeping our Damp chip, do we do that instead? To make salaries match any deal for Shaq almost has to include Damp and Stack. I want Shaq here. He'd fit in nicely. But we need to maximize our assets. Would adding Shaq maybe help land better players with our mid-level and bi-annual(someone like Grant Hill)? Possibly.It's a tough call.

jthig32 · 04-09-2009, 08:35 AM

Stein weighs in on the Shaq thing. This is kind of how I'm leaning. It's a fall back option.
Link

Quote:

Cuban not in hot pursuit of Shaq

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

DALLAS -- Phoenix Suns center Shaquille O'Neal is starting to drop thinly veiled hints about pushing for a trade to the Dallas Mavericks this offseason.
After responding to several recent questions about his future with a mock growl, O'Neal told ESPN.com: "You know who needs me, right?" Asked if he was referring to the Mavericks, O'Neal added: "You write it."

But Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, in response, made it sound Wednesday as though he would prefer to keep his longtime friendship with O'Neal on a mostly Twitter level.

Cuban wouldn't completely rule out a deal for O'Neal this summer, but he likewise offered only limited encouragement when asked before Dallas' crucial 130-101 drubbing of the Utah Jazz if he plans to keep lobbing headline-grabbing Tweets back and forth with Shaq.

"As long as it's not about basketball," Cuban said.

O'Neal has quietly and publicly lobbied for trades to the Mavericks at various points in his career going all the way back to his time with the Lakers. O'Neal and Cuban are genuine friends, and O'Neal also owns property in Dallas and has always liked the area. The Mavericks have also explored the possibility of acquiring O'Neal in recent years, but most of those inquiries were dependent on a long-shot scenario in which they were hoping O'Neal would pursue a contract buyout (first with Miami, then with Phoenix) so they could sign him at reduced terms as a free agent.

Sources with knowledge of the Mavericks' summer plans on Wednesday reiterated recent proclamations by Cuban that they plan to be aggressive on the trade front. They believe that several yet-to-be-identified established players will be shopped by financially strapped teams, as seen before the Feb. 19 trading deadline, when the likes of New Jersey's Vince Carter, Milwaukee's Richard Jefferson, New Orleans' Tyson Chandler and, of course, O'Neal were made available.

Yet sources indicate that O'Neal, due to make $21 million in 2009-10 in the final year of his contract, would be a second-tier choice for the Mavs. Although he could address some longstanding shortcomings for the Mavs -- with his low-post scoring and physical presence as well as an ongoing ability to sell tickets -- they are believed to be looking to inject their Dirk Nowitzki-Jason Kidd-Jason Terry-Josh Howard core with younger legs if possible.

Cuban declined invitations to speculate on specific names that might become available -- amid a growing belief around the league that the Toronto Raptors will at least listen to trade proposals for Dallas native Chris Bosh this summer. But Cuban restated his willingness to be on the league's short list of "buyer" teams open to taking on long-term salary in trades.

"I'll just get another job at Dairy Queen," Cuban joked of taking on more long-term salary at a time when teams are increasingly looking to shed those contracts because of the faltering economy. "Ice cream is still in."

"I still want to win," Cuban added.

He has spoken often this season of keeping star forward Nowitzki for as long as he can. He would also like to find a "Pau Gasol deal" that puts another difference-making sidekick next to Nowitzki, similar to what Kobe Bryant's Los Angeles Lakers did in February 2008 by absorbing Gasol's big contract in a deal with the cost-conscious Memphis Grizzlies. The Mavericks were initially among the teams hoping to make a major free-agent score in the summer of 2010 but have apparently reached the conclusion that they could have less competition this summer if they try to upgrade via trades.

"I think we've got the No. 1 trading asset available and that's money," Cuban said in a recent ESPN Radio interview in Dallas. "It's not so much cap room. It's are you willing to take back money from other teams, particularly in these [tough economic] times?"

The Mavericks are coming off consecutive first-round playoff exits and are still headed for a dreaded first-round matchup with the Lakers as the West's No. 8 seed even after Wednesday's comprehensive win. When pressed Wednesday by a German reporter about his willingness to trade Nowitzki, Cuban insisted: "Dirk will be saying auf wiedersehen to me before I say auf wiedersehen to him."

O'Neal, meanwhile, is bracing to be shopped again this offseason after the Suns -- despite a victory Wednesday night in New Orleans -- were officially eliminated from playoff contention by the Mavericks' victory. O'Neal's statistical resurgence at 37 resulted in a spot on the West roster in the All-Star Game in Phoenix and co-MVP honors with Bryant, but the Suns discussed a deal to send O'Neal to Cleveland just days later which fell through on deadline day.

After the Suns spent nearly two full days in Dallas following Sunday's crushing loss to the Mavericks, practicing here Tuesday before traveling to New Orleans, O'Neal acknowledged that he expects to be pinpointed as the chief scapegoat for the Suns' failure to reach the playoffs after the firing at the All-Star break of new coach Terry Porter. "Of course," O'Neal said. "I always get the blame. I accept that [expletive], though. I understand that."

Said Cuban of an O'Neal trade: "You never say never because it's such a crazy league. But you can say that about any player in the NBA."

sefant77 · 04-09-2009, 08:52 AM

Sources with knowledge of the Mavericks' summer plans on Wednesday reiterated recent proclamations by Cuban that they plan to be aggressive on the trade front. They believe that several yet-to-be-identified established players will be shopped by financially strapped teams, as seen before the Feb. 19 trading deadline, when the likes of New Jersey's Vince Carter, Milwaukee's Richard Jefferson, New Orleans' Tyson Chandler and, of course, O'Neal were made available.

Thats the other side of the Shaq trade. Is he the best choice? I really expect the teams named doing a Gasol trade. Include also the Pacers (Murphy/Dunleavy/Jack).

Another bad thing is that i think we have to pull the Shaq trade really early in the offseason in fact of Stacks contract.

MX425 · 04-09-2009, 11:02 AM

The question to me seems to be is what Josh Howard is here to stay. If it is the Josh of the last week and that time of with an injury really helped him see what he needs to do to be a better person, player, and teammate then I think we try and keep him, target a SG with our MLE. Make the Shaq for Damp/Stack trade. Posibbly trade money and picks in the draft to move up and get a PG to develop. I think with Shaq/Dirk/Kidd/Howard/Terry team you get those vet minimmum signings that all the other contenders seem to get. We need to put priority I feel in keeping Singleton and Green. I would be open to a sign and Trade with Bass because I feel him and Singleton are to similar and I think Singleton has more upside with his shooting range and athleticism.

TheMaverick · 04-09-2009, 11:47 AM

hoping for a certain Josh Howard to stay is way too risky.

Zki41 · 04-09-2009, 12:44 PM

Actually, I think Josh would be better off with Shaq here, because he would get less touches, and he would be more than likely to want to prove himself that he should get the ball more.

MX425 · 04-09-2009, 12:48 PM

He has had more years as a player that were not bonehead. If you actually look at when his act turned sour it was pretty close to the time Avery had wore everyone out here. Maybe he just decided to tune Avery out and now he feels like he has a fresh start. I wouldn't be opposed to trading Josh but it would have to be for an obvious upgrade or else we are just moing holes in the team around. Whatever moves we look at we can't fill one hole by creating another.

sefant77 · 04-09-2009, 01:05 PM

You just have to delete that 1b scoring crap out of his mind and going back to the "most important player" pointing just out attacking the rim and defense and all-around play. Thats what kind of the whole coaching stuff and Dirk does all the time.

Keep Josh if there is not a 2:1 deal with Stack for the Redd/Jefferson-Combo etc.

And NO WAY include him in a Shaq deal. Its Stack/Damp or nothing.

92bDad · 04-09-2009, 01:17 PM

Is there any scenerio where the Mavs get the two metioned players?

Shaq and Paul?

If you can put Paul, Shaq and Dirk on the floow together with other role players...there aint no tellin how sick this team could be...

But who winds up on the outside of the Mavs roster...and again, is there enough there in terms of salary relief to trade out to Suns/Hornets to pull off these pipe dreams?

Underdog · 04-09-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Is there any scenerio where the Mavs get the two metioned players?

Shaq and Paul?

If you can put Paul, Shaq and Dirk on the floow together with other role players...there aint no tellin how sick this team could be...

But who winds up on the outside of the Mavs roster...and again, is there enough there in terms of salary relief to trade out to Suns/Hornets to pull off these pipe dreams?

Reality aside, if we got Paul, we'd get Chandler too - no need to go after Shaq:

Paul
JET
my granny
Dirk
Chandler

Looks good, huh? Don't wake up...

MX425 · 04-09-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Reality aside, if we got Paul, we'd get Chandler too - no need to go after Shaq:

Paul
JET
my granny
Dirk
Chandler

Looks good, huh? Don't wake up...

your granny would have to wait in line with a bunch of players willing to play for vet minimum. The only reason I would see NO ever letting Paul go was if they knew he was going to walk due to lack of talent around him. plus as soon as word of this "bailout" spread there would be so many teams lining up to offer relief plus a yougn cheap core.

Underdog · 04-09-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MX425

your granny would have to wait in line with a bunch of players willing to play for vet minimum.

No offense, but you haven't seen my granny ball...

Lor20 · 04-11-2009, 11:38 AM

actually - if we trade damp we only have 15 mil in guaranteed contracts for 2010/11 +12 mil for the option on josh's contract making it 27 and dirks option at 21 mil making it 48.
with currently 29 teams being over the salary cap its gonna be interesting to see what the offseason brings

BGMaverick9 · 04-11-2009, 06:16 PM

Well....

It's been said for several weeks (deadline and beyond) that if Dallas wasn't a player at the deadline, they'll have their same assets and even more to play with in the offseason. Owners are going to want to unload in a big way, the problem is that there won't be a lot of buyers. At the time, I was about 90-95% sure Cuban would walk the walk when the time was necessary...I'm still pretty sure about that.

I can see that plan in motion where Shaq could be seen as a "2nd tier" kind of move...that by no means makes it a consolation prize, you're still better off than you were before. We know Cuban is an ambitious guy, so he's going to try to use the sitatution to his best advantage and see what he can do with the market this summer.

The normal guys will be in play: VC, Jefferson, Chandler, and Shaq. On top of that I really think there will be some guys who will be major players that will be let loose and will be available: Bosh, Gay, maybe even CP3 if the situation is THAT dire in NO.

Either way, I think Dallas is in a major position of strength this summer and that Cuban will be able to revamp the roster however he wishes to.

tcat075 · 04-11-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Well....

It's been said for several weeks (deadline and beyond) that if Dallas wasn't a player at the deadline, they'll have their same assets and even more to play with in the offseason. Owners are going to want to unload in a big way, the problem is that there won't be a lot of buyers. At the time, I was about 90-95% sure Cuban would walk the walk when the time was necessary...I'm still pretty sure about that.

I can see that plan in motion where Shaq could be seen as a "2nd tier" kind of move...that by no means makes it a consolation prize, you're still better off than you were before. We know Cuban is an ambitious guy, so he's going to try to use the sitatution to his best advantage and see what he can do with the market this summer.

The normal guys will be in play: VC, Jefferson, Chandler, and Shaq. On top of that I really think there will be some guys who will be major players that will be let loose and will be available: Bosh, Gay, maybe even CP3 if the situation is THAT dire in NO.

Either way, I think Dallas is in a major position of strength this summer and that Cuban will be able to revamp the roster however he wishes to.

Shaq can't be plan A.

If we can get Shaq in addition to a plan A/B/C, then great. But Shaq alone won't make this team championship caliber, and Shaq maybe has one year to provide a big impact on a championship team.

BGMaverick9 · 04-11-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Shaq can't be plan A.

If we can get Shaq in addition to a plan A/B/C, then great. But Shaq alone won't make this team championship caliber, and Shaq maybe has one year to provide a big impact on a championship team.

I didn't say it'd make the team a contender but if it's Damp/Stack for Shaq, it's going to make the team better.

I guess it's a matter of what direction they want to go. Do they want to add younger/better legs to the core or shake it up and go with another go big or go home situation with a move just like Shaq.

tcat075 · 04-11-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I didn't say it'd make the team a contender but if it's Damp/Stack for Shaq, it's going to make the team better.

I guess it's a matter of what direction they want to go. Do they want to add younger/better legs to the core or shake it up and go with another go big or go home situation with a move just like Shaq.

Yeah, I know you didn't say that. I was just clarifying.

jthig32 · 04-11-2009, 08:40 PM

I think Shaq certainly has the chance to make the team a contender. Plus keep in mind the team would still have both exceptions to spend in free agency. I agree it should probably be treated as a fall back option, but don't underplay the affect Shaq would have on a team and how well he and Dirk would play off each other.

Underdog · 04-11-2009, 08:46 PM

Kidd/Barea
Wright/JET
Josh/Singleton
Dirk/Bass
Shaq/Hollins

I think that alone could be a contender, barring injuries...

(and Cuban wants a cherry-on-top - if he can swing it, we could grab a ring before the 2010 sweepstakes!)

tcat075 · 04-11-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Kidd/Barea
Wright/JET
Josh/Singleton
Dirk/Bass
Shaq/Hollins

I think that alone could be a contender, barring injuries...

(and Cuban wants a cherry-on-top - if he can swing it, we could grab a ring before the 2010 sweepstakes!)

Contender, perhaps. But what matters is a championship. Could we get one before Shaq declines too far? I mean, in my books, we have about one year. Shaq won't last much past that.

Plus, it does nothing to solve our 3PT shooting or our lack of quickness on the perimeter. Hopefully, having Shaq means less 3's and when we do shoot them, good looks, as well as better interior defense if/when drivers do penetrate into the lane, but to what extent? Those are still viable problems.

Underdog · 04-11-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

Contender, perhaps. But what matters is a championship. Could we get one before Shaq declines too far? I mean, in my books, we have about one year. Shaq won't last much past that.

Plus, it does nothing to solve our 3PT shooting or our lack of quickness on the perimeter. Hopefully, having Shaq means less 3's and when we do shoot them, good looks, as well as better interior defense if/when drivers do penetrate into the lane, but to what extent? Those are still viable problems.

Hence, the cherry-on-top in addition to Shaq (whoever that might be...)