Damn Yankees

[Five-ofan]

For the mvp to be a DH he would have to be by far the best hitter in baseball. You said it yourself their numbers are very comparable. That means that ortiz isnt close. As for the arguments that ortiz has been the better hitter I can make at least as strong of an argument for Arod. BTW Arod has more hrs that tied or put his team ahead than Ortiz does. He has more GW RBIs as well. The consensus best measure of a hitter right now is OPS and Arod wins in that. Also in the close and late game situations which is the only possible argument for Ortiz, Arod has a higher OBP and BA. Basically Arod gets on more often but when Ortiz does get hits he hits them further in those situations.

In overall numbers Arod beats Ortiz in
BA, OBP, OPS, HR, Steals, Slugging, Runs,
In overall numbers Ortiz beats Arod
RBIs and BB.

That doesnt even include the fact that Arod is a near gold glove level 3rd baseman. Also other than just the steals he is more valuable on the bases because he doesnt clog the bases and he can go from first to third on a single. Small things like that all favor arod but they dont even have to be mentioned because One of the many things Arod does well is better than the ONLY thing Ortiz does well.

[Murphy3]

I'm not saying that Ortiz is the MVP. I'm pointing out that he's significantly better when it matters most. I'd give it to ARod, but it wouldn't be an easy decision. I honestly believe that Ortiz' offensive numbers are more impressive than ARod's, but his defensive abilities more than make up for that. Yes, I know that ARod leads Ortiz in most offensive categories, but not in any of the clutch hitting categories....

But like I said, I'd still give the nod to ARod.

[Five-ofan]

Whether or not you believe that Ortiz's offensive numbers are better or not is irrelevant. They simply arent. He has a better batting average with the bases loaded? Damn that is an important stat. Where did you find that anyway. That is not even on espns splits page. The 3 other stats you mentioned and even the bases loaded stat all overlap. Ie if Ortiz is signifigantly better with Risp and 2 out it effects all the other numbers are improved as well and thus those numbers dont make alot of sense to be used in conjuction with each other. I agree that risp is important but Arod has had a better year at the plate. OPS is univerisally considered the best measure of a hitter and Arod beats him there. Arod beats him in 2 of the 3 triple crown categories so if you want to go by raw numbers arod wins. Arod beats him in just about all the sabermetric numbers so if you by them Arod wins. Again that is only including hitting which is the ONLY thing Ortiz does vs its one of many things Arod does WELL.

[Murphy3]

It's your opinion as to what is more important....ARod's lead in certain categories or Ortiz' lead in other offensive categories. Personally, being as clutch as Ortiz is makes up for alot of the edge that ARod has in other categories. Yes, I know that some of the categories that I mentioned overlap, but it is just your opinion that ARod's offensive numbers are better overall just as it is mine that I'd give the offensive edge to Ortiz simply because of the way he performs when it matters most. That is subjective.

You can downplay the importance of hitting in the clutch all you want, but you'll be the only one.

As I said, I'd give the edge to ARod, but Ortiz ability to do things in the clutch much better than ARod is a huge equalizing factor.

[Five-ofan]

Hitting "in the clutch" is very important but it doesnt make up for the other overall difference in their hitting. Arod has better triple crown numbers and better sabermetric numbers. Hitting in the clutch is based on luck. It has been proven that over time "clutch hitting" either regresses to or catches up to your regular numbers depending on where your clutch hitting stats are originally. Ie Derek Jeter. He used to be captain clutch but in the last couple of years he has regressed back to his regular self in clutch situations. Ortiz has a worse BA and OBP in close and late game situations so its not like he just destroys arod in clutch stats either. Arod has more game winning or tieing home runs and Rbis. You could use the they can come early in the game but then again so do alot of Ortiz's risp and runners on stats. It is my opinion that Arod has had a better season offensively, but my opinion has a much stronger base than yours. Baseball is a game of numbers and AROD has better numbers. He has been the better hitter. However he has a history of getting screwed out of MVPs so I wouldnt be overly shocked to see him lose it.

[alby]

A-Rod is MVP because NY won the east and Boston didn't.

[Five-ofan]

If he wins because of that then the voters are idiots. He was the MVP whether they won or not. Agreed he might not have gotten the award if they hadnt won but he was the MVP already. He should already have at least 2 MVPS. The one Juan won over him was just a joke.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Five-ofan
Hitting "in the clutch" is very important but it doesnt make up for the other overall difference in their hitting. Arod has better triple crown numbers and better sabermetric numbers. Hitting in the clutch is based on luck. It has been proven that over time "clutch hitting" either regresses to or catches up to your regular numbers depending on where your clutch hitting stats are originally. Ie Derek Jeter. He used to be captain clutch but in the last couple of years he has regressed back to his regular self in clutch situations. Ortiz has a worse BA and OBP in close and late game situations so its not like he just destroys arod in clutch stats either. Arod has more game winning or tieing home runs and Rbis. You could use the they can come early in the game but then again so do alot of Ortiz's risp and runners on stats. It is my opinion that Arod has had a better season offensively, but my opinion has a much stronger base than yours. Baseball is a game of numbers and AROD has better numbers. He has been the better hitter. However he has a history of getting screwed out of MVPs so I wouldnt be overly shocked to see him lose it.

Hitting in the clutch isn't based on luck. Hitting with runners in scoring position isn't based on luck. Not remotely...not at any level. Yes, over a small sample, it could be, but this is over an entire season...especially when those trends repeatedly come up with certain hitters throughout their career.


Here's the bottom line. Arod had 186 at bats with RISP this year with 77 RBI. Ortiz had 162 at bats with RISP with 92 RBI. So, in 24 less at bats, Ortiz had 15 more RBI. ARod had more prime opportunities to drive in runs this year than Ortiz, but Ortiz made much more of the opportunities. What does this almost assuredly mean? More of ARod's hits came in less meaningful situations. Plus, when the RBI opportunities were there, ARod didn't capitalize nearly as often. To me, this negates the minimal advantage that ARod had in HR's and negates the 20 point advantage or so that he had in BA and OBP. Ortiz was so much better with RISP on fewer opportunities than ARod that he does easily make up for wherever he lacks in other areas.

Hey, give me the guy that's going to hit .350-.360 with RISP compared to the guy that's going to hit .390 especially when they have similar power numbers.

With that being said, because ARod is solid in the field and Ortiz played alot of DH, I'd still give ARod the MVP.
And hey, you can value certain statistics anyway you please. I'd also be willing to bet that ARod was the beneficiary of coming up with more runners on base than Ortiz.

[Five-ofan]

Whether people would say the yankees would still be in or not isnt relevant. Ortiz plays in a better lineup and all he does is hit so he wouldnt be a bigger loss than Arod. Arod has MORE game winning RBIs than Ortiz does and more game winning home runs. Ortiz doesnt have 22 walk off hits this year. RISP isnt always in a meaningful situation either murph but more often than not it is so Im not gonna argue that one. I understand what you are saying and its fine that you value it that way. I just disagree and if you talk to any red sox fan they act like it would be the biggest travesty in the world if ortiz doesnt win it. I would honestly vote Guerrero for 2nd and then Ortiz but just because with the lineup he plays in Guerrero is more important than Ortiz. Defense doesnt factor in on that one because Guerrero plays a low value position and he plays it poorly. Its just that he has no protection and still has good numbers. This the rangers should have won to be fair to the Yankees is just BS. If the yankees just beat the sox or the Drays or hell took one out of 3 from the royals they would have home field. You made your own bed now lie in it. Also everyone acts like if we played our stars we would have won. Umm last I checked we still usually lose to the angels even when they do play the whole game.