Rangers Offseason

[dalmations202]

Add a healthy Ben Sheets to the lineup though, and this becomes a very very good pitching staff.

Just a FYI -- Murphy, IMO, will get lots of time in the outfield as a fourth outfielder, and Cruz will play DH quite a bit when he does.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Add a healthy Ben Sheets to the lineup though, and this becomes a very very good pitching staff.

Just a FYI -- Murphy, IMO, will get lots of time in the outfield as a fourth outfielder, and Cruz will play DH quite a bit when he does.

Cruz, being our best defensive corner outfielder, better not be DHing "quite a bit".

I thin it's more likely that Hamilton sees a lot of DH time to make sure he stays healthy.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Cruz, being our best defensive corner outfielder, better not be DHing "quite a bit".

I thin it's more likely that Hamilton sees a lot of DH time to make sure he stays healthy.

You think Cruz is our best defensive corner outfielder?

Not the impression I got from watching last year. He seemed to be the slowest.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

You think Cruz is our best defensive corner outfielder?

Not the impression I got from watching last year. He seemed to be the slowest.

Nelson Cruz is significantly faster that David Murphy.

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by Male28Dan

As you wish - but you are absolutely in the minority my friend.

I know what you mean...but I have to laugh and enjoy.

Imagine, 92bDad considered a minority

Anyway, I'll just wait and see...the beauty of being a fan, is that we can't do a darn thing about anything other than buy or not buy tickets/merchandise. I'll be there cheering for the Rangers, just like I do for the Mavs, Stars, Cowboys and FC Dallas...support all my local pro teams, with cheering, but rarely a dime...it keeps me from being vested in what they do and when they do good, I can celebrate, when they do bad...I have other things to do.

Take care, until the next Ranger move.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Nelson Cruz is significantly faster that David Murphy.

And he takes worse routes consistently.. and is more apt to make a mental mistake in the outfield.

[Murphy3]

For anyone that thinks Murphy is a borderline All-Star type player, I would be thrilled if that were the case. Do I think he's capable of putting up a first half at some point in his career that gets him into an All-Star game? Yes, it's possible. He is not unskilled offensively. However, he's a #3-4 outfielder. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe that there are teams that would be more than comfortable with him in the starting lineup. However, the Rangers are heavy with lefties. Because of this and because of some other needs and other options, he's probably going to be a 4th outfielder for the Rangers going into this season unless a move is made.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

And he takes worse routes consistently.. and is more apt to make a mental mistake in the outfield.

Are you attempting to argue that Murphy is a better defender than Cruz?

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Are you attempting to argue that Murphy is a better defender than Cruz?

Looking at the fielding stats from ESPN, I could see where the argument could be made that Murphy is at least his equal defensively.

Cruz recorded about 120 more innings, and roughly 4 more assists, but also had one more error, etc.

Murphy recorded the better fielding pct.

From the eye, I would say Cruz has the stronger arm, but IMO Murphy seemed a little faster.

[jthig32]

The advanced fielding metrics (which admittedly are far from perfect) had Cruz rated as an elite level defender last year. He covers a ton more ground than Murphy.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Are you attempting to argue that Murphy is a better defender than Cruz?

Last year, Cruz was the better defender in my opinion. The year before, Murphy was the better defender. Murphy consistently took better routes, got a better jump off of the bate, and made less mistakes. However, I do not believe that Murphy is a more skilled outfielder at all.

And don't give me any of the b.s. defensive stats. Some are ok, but there is no true way to measure defensive ability. All baseball stats can be used in a flawed manner.. especially defensive stats. And stats are not always a true indication of the performance of an individual.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Last year, Cruz was the better defender in my opinion. The year before, Murphy was the better defender. Murphy consistently took better routes, got a better jump off of the bate, and made less mistakes. However, I do not believe that Murphy is a more skilled outfielder at all.

And don't give me any of the b.s. defensive stats. Some are ok, but there is no true way to measure defensive ability. All baseball stats can be used in a flawed manner.. especially defensive stats. And stats are not always a true indication of the performance of an individual.

So in other words, my opinion is better than your opinion which is better than his opinion. Right.

And this goes for whichever one of us is talking at that time. We'll just rotate the my, you and his around..........LOL

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Last year, Cruz was the better defender in my opinion. The year before, Murphy was the better defender. Murphy consistently took better routes, got a better jump off of the bate, and made less mistakes. However, I do not believe that Murphy is a more skilled outfielder at all.

And don't give me any of the b.s. defensive stats. Some are ok, but there is no true way to measure defensive ability. All baseball stats can be used in a flawed manner.. especially defensive stats. And stats are not always a true indication of the performance of an individual.

Defensive stats are certainly less dependable than offensive stats. No doubt about that. But a few have emerged over the last few years that seem pretty dependable. The Fielding Bible, in particular, seems to be a pretty good assessment of a fielder, imo. But I certainly wouldn't just quote any defensive metric as my sole justification for my opinion.

But I also have a huge problem with completely ignoring advanced defensive stats because it's very difficult to assess defensive performance through a television. It's often very difficult to tell where the fielder was positioned, what kind of play he made to get to the ball, etc etc.

There's no doubt that Cruz looked pretty awkward on a handful of routes last year, but when multiple sets of defensive stats have him in the top tier of right fielders for multiple years, I'm willing to accept that. Especially regarding a guy that had a stellar defensive reputation in the minors and is incredibly physically gifted.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

So in other words, my opinion is better than your opinion which is better than his opinion. Right.

And this goes for whichever one of us is talking at that time. We'll just rotate the my, you and his around..........LOL

nope, you can stick with mine.

Unfortunately, there is no extremely good defensive metric at this point. So yeah, so much of it is just the eyeball test which can be wrong. However, I trust my eyes alot more than I do defensive metrics at this point. And I honestly do not believe that there will ever be a defensive metric that is much more than a so-so tool to use. That does not mean that you ignore the defensive metrics.. but you must take them with a grain of salt.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Defensive stats are certainly less dependable than offensive stats. No doubt about that. But a few have emerged over the last few years that seem pretty dependable. The Fielding Bible, in particular, seems to be a pretty good assessment of a fielder, imo. But I certainly wouldn't just quote any defensive metric as my sole justification for my opinion.

But I also have a huge problem with completely ignoring advanced defensive stats because it's very difficult to assess defensive performance through a television. It's often very difficult to tell where the fielder was positioned, what kind of play he made to get to the ball, etc etc.

There's no doubt that Cruz looked pretty awkward on a handful of routes last year, but when multiple sets of defensive stats have him in the top tier of right fielders for multiple years, I'm willing to accept that. Especially regarding a guy that had a stellar defensive reputation in the minors and is incredibly physically gifted.

I agree with this. When Cruz did screw up, it was a pretty stupid thing, however, if he is ranked in the top of multiple defensive statistics for an entire year, I would have to think that he's legit. His mistakes are more obvious for some reason.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

No doubt the Rangers are handcuffed by the current owner and his financial problems.

As for the trade, I'm still very hesitant...again, I see Millwood as a key factor as to why this team's pitching was a high point of last season, and a main reason why the youth was able to step it up for the Rangers.

I believe that losing him will hurt this club and that it will set them back a few years.

Millwood, like him or not, was a leader by example type of guy and I'm concerned that they could be a but rutterless without him. None of the names you proposed the Rangers getting in return do anything for me...in terms of a swap. Again, if you are adding them without losing Millwood, then I'm a bit interested...but I see a ton of UNreliable players.

Kinda makes me think of Tracy McGrady...nasty stuff for an NBA Player, but will he stay on the court long enough to help my team win?

Sorry, if you believe I'm dumb for not liking the trade proposal...it's just a difference of opinion, nothing more.

But on that note, this ownership and team finances need to be figured out quickly, or the progress that JD and company have made over the past 3 years, will all be for not in one broke down/poor $$$ offseason.

You do know millwood was an average to below average number 5 starter in august and september right?

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Looking at the fielding stats from ESPN, I could see where the argument could be made that Murphy is at least his equal defensively.

Cruz recorded about 120 more innings, and roughly 4 more assists, but also had one more error, etc.

Murphy recorded the better fielding pct.

From the eye, I would say Cruz has the stronger arm, but IMO Murphy seemed a little faster.

please tell me you didnt just use assists and error totals to compare defensive outfielders. Im not a huge proponent of uzr for outfielder but if you are gonna use defensive numbers to compare players use that. Murphy is right in that cruz does make mental mistakes but hes faster than murphy(and byrd if he comes back). He also has an absolute cannon.

[Murphy3]

Errors and assists can be used..but, they by no means should be the main determining factor. If an outfielder has a high number of errors, then it should obviously be a red flag. Assists are obviously an overrated stat simply because teams may not try to take the extra base against certain outfielders. So, their assist numbers will be down.

[Male30Dan]

What is holding Lowell up? Ryan sure wants him:

Here ya go...

[92bDad]

By the way, if we do get Lowell...what does that mean for MY?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

By the way, if we do get Lowell...what does that mean for MY?

Nothing?

[92bDad]

What, Lowell comes here and MY keeps playing 3rd...okay, then why is Lowell an interest to the Rangers and where does he play?

Unless, you plan on utlizing either Lowell or MY in some other blockbuster trade...if the Rangers are in contention at the trade-deadline point.

By the way, and I know around these parts one can be crucified for the following...but how valuable is MY in a trade scenerio?

Don't get me wrong, MY is a good guy and a quality face of the club...I just believe he may be more valuable as a trade option than as someone staying around as the youth of this club rises to the top.

Seems like MY is the Rangers version of former Maverick M. Finley...only MY still has some serious value in a trade. I doubt he could get you what Tex got for the Rangers, but it may be possible to get some team to overpay for a quality face of the franchise?

Then bringing Lowell in makes sense...not to mention, reports are that Boston is ready to pay $9Mil of Lowell's $12Mil salary...so either MY or Lowell could be serious trade bait by deadline time.

[Five-ofan]

As far as getting lowell i do think it helps in one less than obvious way. If inglett or duran is our utility guy(and im guessing one of them is or we wouldnt have signed both of them.) We dont have anyone on the roster aside from elvis or young whos capable of playing ss for a week if elvis sprains an ankle or something. Not enough to go on the DL but a situation where he needs to take 4 or 5 days off. Young isnt exactly ozzie smith jr at ss but he can credibly play the position for a small amount of time. That is of no use though if we dont have a viable option at 3rd.(i know Davis could do it a little but then you dont have a first basemen either.) Lowell does give you a solid third basemen for that possibility. Im not a big fan of the lowell trade but there are reasons to support it.


And Young has probably negative trade value 92b because of his expensive contract.

[Murphy3]

92bdad, Lowell would be the DH.

As for what the Rangers could get for Young..knowing Hicks, if they seriously could move Young and get some solid talent in return, then he probably would have been traded already.

[Male30Dan]

If this thumb derails Lowell, who do we pick up? Gomes? Garko? Tatis? Fill internally?

Gomes has some pretty amazing power numbers considering he is getting just over half a year's at-bats and hitting right at 20 home runs per year in 4 of the last 5 years. I don't know if he is just a huge injury liability or what, but those are good power numbers and he can draw some walks also, (obviously his average is poor). Tatis would be very similar to Lowell with regards to his defensive flexibility and he has pretty good numbers also. Garko has the best OBP.

Thoughts?

[Male30Dan]

Also, someone like Gomes gives you the defensive flexibility also because it allows you to ONLY take the 4 outfielders, (Borbon, Hamilton, Cruz, and Murphy), and Gomes can provide relief where needed to prevent carrying 5 OFs. Now you just keep an extra IF instead of a 5th OF and the flexibility is still there that is being spoken of with regards to Lowell/Tatis.

[jthig32]

Unless the Rangers are really hamstrung in other areas, I have to think they'll carry a 5th outfielder that will backup center field. I think they're dead set on Hamilton not playing center field at all anymore.

I don't know what to think at DH. None of the names (including Lowell) excite me much.

[Male30Dan]

Yeah - if they NEVER want Hamilton to play CF again, you are right, as Gomes isn't an option there.

I want Lowell here first and foremost for the same reasons Ryan does - leadership and experience. I think he would be an overall plus as a hitter if healthy also, but only if healthy.

[Murphy3]

Actually, I don't think they carry a 5th OF primarily because they need a backup. In a pinch, I'm sure that they'll be ok with Murphy or Cruz playing CF if needed. I do believe that they feel more than comfortable with the defensive abilities of either or these two guys.

That does not mean that they won't carry a 5th OF. But I don't think they'll carry a 5th OF for the primary purpose of being the backup at CF. There is the chance that they could carry a 5th OF that can play some CF because they are not convinced that Borbon can play every day.

[Male30Dan]

Getting down to the nitty gritty here. Who is gonna be the new owner of the Rangers? Exclusive negotiations will begin as soon as Hicks picks one from the three today.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Actually, I don't think they carry a 5th OF primarily because they need a backup. In a pinch, I'm sure that they'll be ok with Murphy or Cruz playing CF if needed. I do believe that they feel more than comfortable with the defensive abilities of either or these two guys.

That does not mean that they won't carry a 5th OF. But I don't think they'll carry a 5th OF for the primary purpose of being the backup at CF. There is the chance that they could carry a 5th OF that can play some CF because they are not convinced that Borbon can play every day.

If Borbon was a veteran in his prime I'd agree with you. But I have to think someone as young as Borbon is going to get spelled fairly regularly, if nothing else to help with his inevitable struggles at the plate.

I really doubt the Rangers want a combo of Murphy/Cruz playing 20+ games in CF next year.

Obviously you could be right, especially with all four outfielders theoretically capable of playing center field, but I still suspect a fifth outfielder that is mainly a pinch runner/backup center fielder is likely to be on the roster come opening day (Crag Gentry maybe).

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Borbon was a veteran in his prime I'd agree with you. But I have to think someone as young as Borbon is going to get spelled fairly regularly, if nothing else to help with his inevitable struggles at the plate.

I really doubt the Rangers want a combo of Murphy/Cruz playing 20+ games in CF next year.

Obviously you could be right, especially with all four outfielders theoretically capable of playing center field, but I still suspect a fifth outfielder that is mainly a pinch runner/backup center fielder is likely to be on the roster come opening day (Crag Gentry maybe).

My point is that there won't be a guy added to the roster simply because there is no one else that can play center field. I know I didn't exactly word what I was trying to say in the best manner. I DO believe that there could be a guy on the roster because the team might not think Borbon is ready to be the every day CFer. Yes, Borbon will get the majority of the starts, but I don't know that they trust his bat facing both lefties and righties. So, basically, my point is that a 5th OFer won't be carried because others can't play the position..

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Male28Dan

Getting down to the nitty gritty here. Who is gonna be the new owner of the Rangers? Exclusive negotiations will begin as soon as Hicks picks one from the three today.

Greenberg it is. I'm pretty excited. This should mean the most continuity within the front office.

[Male30Dan]

It means the most continuity but it also means Hicks remains a minority owner, which I didn't want to see.

Eh well, we keep Ryan and get a smart baseball guy for an owner. God I hope this means we are at least top 10 in payroll vs other teams now. THIS IS NOT A SMALL MARKET FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!! I know 2011 is likely the first year we can benefit from this, regarding free agency that is. Hopefully we spend wisely but aggressively and go from a young team with promise to a youthful team with some very talented proven players. I think we can win our division this year, despite Seattle getting much better; however, things only look more promising from 2011 and on...

Great day to be a Rangers fan.

[mkat]

i'm glad baseball forced hicks' hand. sell this thing and let's get on with it. i'm excited.

[Five-ofan]

Nick Johnson signed with the yankees for 5.5 mil for 1 year. Adam is pretty ticked about it. Im not sure i agree. Hed be our best hitter and he doesnt have platoon issues which would be helpful for us but i dont think we can afford to spend 6 mil on a dh who probably wont play more than 90 games.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Nick Johnson signed with the yankees for 5.5 mil for 1 year. Adam is pretty ticked about it. Im not sure i agree. Hed be our best hitter and he doesnt have platoon issues which would be helpful for us but i dont think we can afford to spend 6 mil on a dh who probably wont play more than 90 games.

Um, no he wouldn't. If you mean he would become our best OBP guy, fine, but he would not become our best "hitter" as it is likely two other guys would have a better average and it is possible the entire lineup would hit more homeruns. Don't get me wrong, OBP is very important and something that hurt the Rangers last year, but that is like saying he would be the best hitter on the Yankees now that he has joined, (seeing as how no other guy had a higher OBP last year). The dude hits for a nice average and draws a lot of walks, but the best hitter on this team he would NOT be.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Male28Dan

Um, no he wouldn't. If you mean he would become our best OBP guy, fine, but he would not become our best "hitter" as it is likely two other guys would have a better average and it is possible the entire lineup would hit more homeruns. Don't get me wrong, OBP is very important and something that hurt the Rangers last year, but that is like saying he would be the best hitter on the Yankees now that he has joined, (seeing as how no other guy had a higher OBP last year). The dude hits for a nice average and draws a lot of walks, but the best hitter on this team he would NOT be.

i wasnt aware arod and tex played for the rangers. So no its not like saying hed be the best hitter on the rangers. We dont have anyone who is a sure bet to be a good hitter next year. I have high hopes/expectations for Kinsler, Cruz and Hamilton and maybe davis but theres not anyone on our roster id be comfortable projecting a 400 woba(Kinslers 08 came close but johnson has actually posted a 400+ woba before) from next year and i think johnson would very likely accomplish that here. Stated another way, who would you expect to be a better hitter than him next year? And OBP is by far the best of the normal stats for measuring a hitter(obp, slug, ops, avg, hr, rbis)

[Murphy3]

Guys that get on base 40% of the time don't grow on trees. You cannot overestimate the importance of having that type of hitter in a lineup.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Guys that get on base 40% of the time don't grow on trees. You cannot overestimate the importance of having that type of hitter in a lineup.

the yankees now have 3. and 5 guys who have obps over 370. That lineup is gonna be ridiculous.