Dampier-less Mavs are like a doughnut - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsFanFinley · 03-03-2005, 11:56 PM

Dampier-less Mavs are like a doughnut
Center's absence leaves a sizable hole in the middle of defense

David Moore
10:53 PM CST on Thursday, March 3, 2005

LOS ANGELES – Those who wondered how – or if – Erick Dampier would help the Mavericks have their answer.

This team can win without Dampier. But when they lose, as they did against the Los Angeles Clippers to start this three-game road trip, you see just what they miss when he's not on the court.

Coach Don Nelson can tinker with the minutes all he wants over the next few days and weeks. He can teach Keith Van Horn the plays and try to scratch out a few more wins at home.

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But the Mavericks won't be able to forge the identity they need to be successful in the playoffs until Dampier returns later this month.

"Without a center, we're treading water," Nelson said as the team turned its sights to tonight's game against the Los Angeles Lakers. "We're doing the best we can with what we have.

"It's good to have Hindu [Alan Henderson] back, but we know the only legitimate center we have now is Damp. I'd like to say Shawn Bradley could go in, but he's all over the map. I never know what I'm going to get with Shawn."

The Mavericks began to slip defensively before Dampier was placed on the injured list with a stress fracture in his right foot. Now, those deficiencies are even more pronounced.

Opponents have scored 113 or more points in three of the six games since Dampier has been sidelined. The Mavericks are allowing nearly six points a game more than they have over the course of the season, and opponents are shooting 45.1 percent from the field in that stretch.

The club is still holding opponents to less than 44 percent from the field for the season.

"He's got to anchor our defense," forward Dirk Nowitzki said. "Before he got hurt, he did a great job for us. He would attack the penetration and did a good job on the pick-and-roll defense.

"I've said it all along. If he's aggressive out there for us defensively, we're a different team."

What happened against the Clippers wasn't an aberration. A team that had lost nine of 11 games drove the lane at will on its way to 60 first-half points. The Clippers pounded the Mavericks on the offensive boards and held a 52-32 overall edge in rebounds.

"I can't be surprised about being outrebounded without Damp," Nelson said.

Maybe not. But assistant coach Avery Johnson, who ran Thursday's practice while Nelson stayed at the hotel because of his aching shoulder, emphasized that Nowitzki, Henderson and Bradley must begin to pick up the slack on the boards.

Guard Jerry Stackhouse pointed out that the Mavericks can't abdicate their aggressiveness just because Dampier is not on the court.

"If we want to have the identity of a defensive team, we're going to have to take hard fouls, no matter who it is," Stackhouse said. "Everyone on the court has to take hard fouls when teams drive down the lane on us. We're too deep of a team to have to worry about foul trouble."

There's no firm timetable for Dampier's return. He said Thursday he's feeling better and hopes to be cleared to move his rehabilitation to the elliptical trainer early next week. The next step is the treadmill and then the court.

The Mavericks are left to fend – or more accurately, defend – for themselves until he gets back. Nowitzki said the team is so small up front now that the team is "right back to where we were the last couple of years" defensively.

That's not what anyone wants.

"Since he's been out, I think guys really see what he brings to the table," Johnson said. "We are hoping once he gets back he's well rested and healthy and has tons of energy to be even more of a presence inside."

Captain Disaster · 03-04-2005, 12:05 AM

It's true, without Damp the Mavs are a second-tier team. I would still like to Nelson try to use Mbenga & Bradley before he throws up his hands.

twelli · 03-04-2005, 12:34 AM

If the Mavs are relying on Dampier to be successful, and the players believe they are not good without him, we'll surely have a short postseason whether he plays or not...

That's not the mentality that wins championships.

The attitude should be: We are great team, whoever plays and against any team.

dude1394 · 03-04-2005, 12:35 AM

Jelly doughnut.

I'm not sure who I like better, hendu or bradley sometimes. I think Nellie is pretty accurate about shawn these days, he's giving him time but he sometimes is okay, sometimes not.

I didn't see the clippers game but bradleys line looked horrendous. Mbenga, just isn't ready at all after seeing him with phoenix. 7 minutes, 1 rebound and 2 PFs. ACK...

V · 03-04-2005, 01:04 AM

Remember what happened to Detroit when Ben Wallace was out.

The Miles · 03-04-2005, 02:06 AM

I just didn't see how Benga wasn't ready in that Suns game. He barely played, had 2 blocked shots (that GT was BS), showed some decent offense, and made Amare work. Sure, Amare dunked on him, but Amare dunks on everyone. Amare was dunking all over the Wallaces tonight, it happens. Benga made him work a lot harder than anyone else on Dallas has all year outside of Calvin Booth.

Basically, Benga missed an 8 foot shot and that was it for him. He isn't a rebounder yet, but neither is Bradley or hardly anyone on this team outside of Dirk, Damp, and Josh. Our "star" SG has 1 rebound this week yet he logs 40 mpg with a full bench of SGs/SFs available.

Double standard.

PepperTheMavsFan41 · 03-04-2005, 03:38 AM

How David Moore keeps a job Ill never know.

Send his ass back to Foxsports.com to cover the NFL Draft.

madape · 03-04-2005, 08:52 AM

This lispy tramp is more fit to write about celebrity gossip, musical reviews, and h'ors d'ovours recipes than he is sports. Shuffle him back into the cabaret he came from.

Speedy · 03-04-2005, 10:42 AM

"If we want to have the identity of a defensive team, we're going to have to take hard fouls, no matter who it is," Stackhouse said. "Everyone on the court has to take hard fouls when teams drive down the lane on us. We're too deep of a team to have to worry about foul trouble."

I like that. With the depth the mavs have they should be able to play very aggressively. Not stupid, but aggressive.

V2M · 03-04-2005, 10:45 AM

MBenga played 10min and had 1 PF (and not 7min and 2PFs as mentioned by dude1394, above!), playing against arguably the most athletic big man in the league. He defended quite well and prevented some easy layups/dunks just by his mere presence in the middle.

Dampier is injured and Nellie doesn't like playing Bradley. Given that, I'd much rather see MBenga than Dirk, Hendu or KVH at #5. His size and athleticism alone demand more playing time for a team with such gaping holes in the middle. I can't believe how we can miss something that's so obvious!!

V2M · 03-04-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Speedy
"If we want to have the identity of a defensive team, we're going to have to take hard fouls, no matter who it is," Stackhouse said. "Everyone on the court has to take hard fouls when teams drive down the lane on us. We're too deep of a team to have to worry about foul trouble."

I like that. With the depth the mavs have they should be able to play very aggressively. Not stupid, but aggressive.

I agree, Speedy. That's a top-class comment from a seasoned veteran. Stack's proven many folks wrong with his positive energy and team-spirit.

GermanBlitzkrieg · 03-04-2005, 10:56 AM

Nellie misses a lot that's obvious, because he wants a small, weak team that can shoot on the floor. If Dirk is at center, all the Nellie supporters can bite me! More than a handful of minutes, and it's folly! Go with Shawn, go with DJ, keep KVH and dirk out of there! Hendu some, but not much.

My gauge has always been that Bradley's always been shortchanged here. While Fin and others can play through mistakes, Bradley's pulled after one or two mistakes.

Of course, excepting his favorites, offensive-minded people, this holds true for most players who've come through here.

I'm really letting Nelson have it. But never misunderstand: if what he does gets us a championship, I'll eat my words. UNless, he starts playing more conventional ball. Then I'll just say HE wised up.

And saying without Damp we can't be more conventional, all I can say is: BS!

Quetzalcoatl · 03-04-2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Captain Disaster
It's true, without Damp the Mavs are a second-tier team. I would still like to Nelson try to use Mbenga & Bradley before he throws up his hands.

Totally agree.

Dampier, I miss you.

FilthyFinMavs · 03-04-2005, 11:03 AM

Only reason Mavs suck without Damp is because they don't play a center when he's out. Dampier is the only center that Nellie will even play so his presence is definately needed.

GermanBlitzkrieg · 03-04-2005, 11:33 AM

I wanted to add that I like Nellie. He has brought this team sooo far. But I'm still waiting for a championship.

I'm just not convinced he can deliver, for reasons stated. Let's hope.

V2M · 03-04-2005, 11:44 AM

So much for Donnie & Cuban's efforts to get us 5 true centers at the start of the season: Damp, Bradley, Booth, MBenga and PPod.
Two high-priced veterans in free agency and two arguably the best centers from last year's draft class. And what does Nellie do: Start our best player, a natural PF, at Center alongside 4 small guards. Now, if that doesn't zap a team's energy, what does... I don't know!!

I know, Damp's hurt, Booth's traded and PPod's not ready. But what's so wrong if Bradley and MBenga get about 20min each to bulk up the middle, which will keep Dirk from guarding the other team's biggest guy, protect him from early foul-trouble and just allow him to play at a position he's most comfortable with. Just way too simplistic for that Mad Scientist.

Aaaaaarrrrggghhh!!!!

Usually Lurkin · 03-04-2005, 12:19 PM

yeah. If we're playing like crap and losing without a center, why not play one?
The mavs are going to have to learn to play together at this point. What good is it to learn to play without a center now when they are going to have to relearn to play with one to ever win the championship?

madape · 03-04-2005, 12:20 PM

If we're going to play that bitch Alan Henderson at the center spot for 20 minutes a game, we're going to give up 110 points every night. Resigning him was a terrible move because Nelson can't help himself from playing the bum ridiculous minutes at the center spot. This dude isn't a decent forward much less a decent center. I guarantee you we would have won that Clipper game if Bradley would have played more minutes.

I thought the Van Horn trade, if anything, was addition by subtraction. We jettisoned two terrible, terrible players who turned the Mavericks from a playoff contender to a lottery team every time they touched the court. Why in the hell did we re-aquire Henderson?

veryclueless · 03-04-2005, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
yeah. If we're playing like crap and losing without a center, why not play one?
The mavs are going to have to learn to play together at this point. What good is it to learn to play without a center now when they are going to have to relearn to play with one to ever win the championship?

Quote:

Without a center, we're treading water," Nelson said as the team turned its sights to tonight's game against the Los Angeles Lakers. "We're doing the best we can with what we have.

I agree with you i think Nellie agrees too. But for some reason he isn't starting a centre even when we have one. I know some might bash Bradley and Mbenga but we have to do the best we can with what we have. Funny isn't is thats what Nelie says but not what he does? I can't say if Nellie current decision is correct i have never coach before but he should at least try to develop the same playing pattern as before when we had Dampier.

veryclueless · 03-04-2005, 02:30 PM

*double post*

veryclueless · 03-04-2005, 02:30 PM

*double post*

NewMexiMav · 03-04-2005, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
Only reason Mavs suck without Damp is because they don't play a center when he's out. Dampier is the only center that Nellie will even play so his presence is definately needed.

Damn right, FFM! If David Moore had any gonads, he would have at least wondered aloud why Nellie thinks we don't have a center on the active roster.

It is well established that Bradley is a flawed player, but his defensive impact is undeniable. Even on his worst nights, the opposition always has to be aware of Bradley's shot-blocking presence. Mbenga's flaws right now are directly related to his inexperience. How 'bout getting the guy some experience now while we have this "doughnut" problem facing us? Could the Clipper game have gotten worse with DJ on the floor? I don't see how.

Finally, if Nellie really has zero confidence in Shawn, then we never should have traded Booth (don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of the KVH trade). I don't want to hear Nellie whine about not having a center if he signed off on the KVH trade.

Bottom line---play an f'ing center Nellie!

Simon2 · 03-04-2005, 04:43 PM

I really, really don't understand the mentality here. The Mavs are a "doughnut" without Damp? People are saying that the Mavs are a second tier team without Damp. Let me see, the last time, I checked only a few teams have quality backup centers out there. Rasho and Nazr maybe? Shaq and Zo? But come on, the Mavs aren't a second tier team without Damp. Do the Suns have a center? Nope. Why is all the hope now being pinned on Damp? To me, THAT'S ANOTHER NELLIE EXCUSE FOR FAILURE. Every year, its the same song, "The Mavs don't have a legitimate center" Now, they have one but he's injured and they are a second tier team again? Talk about the sky is falling. If they keep on complaining about centers, the Mavs have Benga, Pavel and Bradley in the lineup. Why not develop the two rookies or trade Bradley is Nellie thinks he's so inconsistent. Bradley has been Nellie's scapegoat since day 1. If things aren't going well, blame it on Shawn.

Centers don't develop because Nellie would rather play small ball.

Develop the centers we have or get rid of Bradley or quit whining!

GermanBlitzkrieg · 03-04-2005, 05:28 PM

AMEN Simon2! If Bradley sucks, can't play, can't be trusted, GET RID OF THE GUY!

Let's never forget, Nellie was here when he signed his last contract!

So tired of this no center crap....

chumdawg · 03-04-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Simon2
I really, really don't understand the mentality here. The Mavs are a "doughnut" without Damp? People are saying that the Mavs are a second tier team without Damp. Let me see, the last time, I checked only a few teams have quality backup centers out there. Rasho and Nazr maybe? Shaq and Zo? But come on, the Mavs aren't a second tier team without Damp. Do the Suns have a center? Nope. Why is all the hope now being pinned on Damp? To me, THAT'S ANOTHER NELLIE EXCUSE FOR FAILURE. Every year, its the same song, "The Mavs don't have a legitimate center" Now, they have one but he's injured and they are a second tier team again? Talk about the sky is falling. If they keep on complaining about centers, the Mavs have Benga, Pavel and Bradley in the lineup. Why not develop the two rookies or trade Bradley is Nellie thinks he's so inconsistent. Bradley has been Nellie's scapegoat since day 1. If things aren't going well, blame it on Shawn.

Centers don't develop because Nellie would rather play small ball.

Develop the centers we have or get rid of Bradley or quit whining!

Honestly, Simon, there is more whining coming from you and others than there is from Don Nelson.

Here is a question for you: if you don't think that the Mavs are worse off without Damp in the lineup, then WHY IN THE GOOD HELL do you think we signed him in the first place? Why do you bitch and moan about Nellie's willingness to play without a center at times, yet at the same time point to Phoenix (and most of the rest of the league) as proof positive that you can win without one? I can't make sense of it all, Simon. I really can't.

Why is it so hard for many people here to grasp that we aren't as good a team without Damp as we are with him? That we don't play defense as well without him as we do with him? I would think that this phenomenon would be patently obvious to anyone who has at least enough intelligence to log on to a message board.

But, no. When our coveted defensive big man who we went out and got last summer as the final piece to our championship puzzle, a piece that we desperately needed, is out with injury...that is not the cause for the defensive dropoff. The cause is the coach. The same coach who had the team playing good defense before the big man went down with injury.

It truly boggles the mind, the way some of you think. I apologize for ranting on you, Simon. I'm just getting frustrated.

Simon2 · 03-04-2005, 06:01 PM

Quote:

"Without a center, we're treading water," Nelson said as the team turned its sights to tonight's game against the Los Angeles Lakers. "We're doing the best we can with what we have.

Wow! This is exactly the talk of someone covering his butt if the Mavs lose. Its very annoying to hear him talk as if the Mavs are nothing without Damp. Come on. If you had Dirk and 4 CBAers, you still had a chance to beat any team in the NBA.

Quote:

"It's good to have Hindu [Alan Henderson] back, but we know the only legitimate center we have now is Damp. I'd like to say Shawn Bradley could go in, but he's all over the map. I never know what I'm going to get with Shawn."

Bradley is Nellie's whipping boy.

Quote:

"I can't be surprised about being outrebounded without Damp," Nelson said.

OMG! So, you are telling me, without Damp, its ok to get outrebounded? I guess the other players don't care about rebounding and the chore of rebounding rests solely on Damp's shoulders. For crying out loud, tell your guys to hustle and box out. Maybe you won't be outrebounded.

madape · 03-04-2005, 06:02 PM

Let's be honest. If Dampier hadn't been given a 7 year, $70M contract, and if the Mavs hadn't given up two first round draft picks, Eduardo Najera and Christian Laettner's huge expiring contract... do you think Dampier would have ever been given consistent minutes here? If Dampier was only putting up 8 points, 6.5 rebounds and 0.5 blocks, as he was for the first three months of the season, and the Mavs only invested say... Danny Fortson to get him... what do you think would have happened to the guy? I'll tell you, he would have been either buried on the bench or sent out in some mid-season trade for Keith Van Horn.

Everyone is so shocked that Dampier finally showed up after three months of putrid play, and that the Mavs benefited greatly from his production. The point is that we probably could have received the SAME results from any of the centers on this roster if Nelson would have shown any kind of patience with them. Dampier's career numbers certainly don't by any means indicate that he's some kind of special player. The only reason he was able to do for one month what this team has needed a center to do for years is because of one reason and one reason only... the investment this team made in him forces Nelson to play him.

The situation we find ourselves in now... losing games to the Clippers with bitches like Alan Henderson playing 25 minutes at the center spot... does not reflect at all on Shawn Bradley, Pavel Podskalzine, DJ Mbenga, or even Erick Dampier. It reflects on a coach who inexplicably keeps falling back on his stubborn beleifs that only the most dominating centers in the league deserve playing time. And if were at all avoidable, Nelson would have benched Damp long before the man finally pulled his head out of his ass and decided to play basketball for us. And despite all the pressure he'll receive to play Dampier, I think it's just a matter of time before he gets thrown in the doghouse too.

But at least Dampier will benefit from Nelson's eventual retirement, as he has from having the world's most ridiculous contract. Sadly, the bulk of Shawn Bradley's career will have been wasted under the pitiful tutilidge of the worst coach for centers in the history of the NBA. If only we had given up more to get him, he might have had a chance.

Simon2 · 03-04-2005, 06:21 PM

What year was it that Bradley did nothing but sit on the bench. Wasn't Booth the starter at one point? I bet if they gave Benga time, he would develop into something special. Players can't develop without PT.

Also, wasn't the last three months under AJ? Hmm....

dude1394 · 03-04-2005, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: V2M
MBenga played 10min and had 1 PF (and not 7min and 2PFs as mentioned by dude1394, above!), playing against arguably the most athletic big man in the league. He defended quite well and prevented some easy layups/dunks just by his mere presence in the middle.

Dampier is injured and Nellie doesn't like playing Bradley. Given that, I'd much rather see MBenga than Dirk, Hendu or KVH at #5. His size and athleticism alone demand more playing time for a team with such gaping holes in the middle. I can't believe how we can miss something that's so obvious!!

Numbers off the top of my head. I also didn't mention the 5 shots he took. In those 10 minutes.

dalmations202 · 03-04-2005, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: NewMexiMav

Quote:

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
Only reason Mavs suck without Damp is because they don't play a center when he's out. Dampier is the only center that Nellie will even play so his presence is definately needed.

Damn right, FFM! If David Moore had any gonads, he would have at least wondered aloud why Nellie thinks we don't have a center on the active roster.

It is well established that Bradley is a flawed player, but his defensive impact is undeniable. Even on his worst nights, the opposition always has to be aware of Bradley's shot-blocking presence. Mbenga's flaws right now are directly related to his inexperience. How 'bout getting the guy some experience now while we have this "doughnut" problem facing us? Could the Clipper game have gotten worse with DJ on the floor? I don't see how.

Finally, if Nellie really has zero confidence in Shawn, then we never should have traded Booth (don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of the KVH trade). I don't want to hear Nellie whine about not having a center if he signed off on the KVH trade.

Bottom line---play an f'ing center Nellie!

Unfortunately you are dead on here. I love Nellie --- but if Nellie had a clue on how to develop a Big man-- Bradley would be a nightly double, double guy with 3 blocks a night.

That is the one severe -- well, very severe limit of Nellie.

dude1394 · 03-04-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Simon2
What year was it that Bradley did nothing but sit on the bench. Wasn't Booth the starter at one point? I bet if they gave Benga time, he would develop into something special. Players can't develop without PT.

Also, wasn't the last three months under AJ? Hmm....

I didn't see AJ trotting out booth/mbenga either. There is a REASON that mebenga is not playing. Same reason that HOGEBOOM didn't play for the cowboys. He's not ready for prime time. He was given a change at prime time and I would bet that he made so many errors that it wasn't funny.

With MBenga on the floor the suns outscored us by 9. Everytime he stepped on the floor the mavs began to get outscored. Get over the "bench" love. He's not ready.

dude1394 · 03-04-2005, 08:25 PM

So when AJ was coaching how much time did a center other than dampier get...I think I saw many DNP's....

Against Miami for example Shawn got 5 minutes, booth none. So there must have been a time when dirk was playing center.

Guess AJ doesn't know how to develop shawn either.

basketball jonessss · 03-04-2005, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape
Let's be honest. If Dampier hadn't been given a 7 year, $70M contract, and if the Mavs hadn't given up two first round draft picks, Eduardo Najera and Christian Laettner's huge expiring contract... do you think Dampier would have ever been given consistent minutes here? If Dampier was only putting up 8 points, 6.5 rebounds and 0.5 blocks, as he was for the first three months of the season, and the Mavs only invested say... Danny Fortson to get him... what do you think would have happened to the guy? I'll tell you, he would have been either buried on the bench or sent out in some mid-season trade for Keith Van Horn.

Everyone is so shocked that Dampier finally showed up after three months of putrid play, and that the Mavs benefited greatly from his production. The point is that we probably could have received the SAME results from any of the centers on this roster if Nelson would have shown any kind of patience with them. Dampier's career numbers certainly don't by any means indicate that he's some kind of special player. The only reason he was able to do for one month what this team has needed a center to do for years is because of one reason and one reason only... the investment this team made in him forces Nelson to play him.

The situation we find ourselves in now... losing games to the Clippers with bitches like Alan Henderson playing 25 minutes at the center spot... does not reflect at all on Shawn Bradley, Pavel Podskalzine, DJ Mbenga, or even Erick Dampier. It reflects on a coach who inexplicably keeps falling back on his stubborn beleifs that only the most dominating centers in the league deserve playing time. And if were at all avoidable, Nelson would have benched Damp long before the man finally pulled his head out of his ass and decided to play basketball for us. And despite all the pressure he'll receive to play Dampier, I think it's just a matter of time before he gets thrown in the doghouse too.

But at least Dampier will benefit from Nelson's eventual retirement, as he has from having the world's most ridiculous contract. Sadly, the bulk of Shawn Bradley's career will have been wasted under the pitiful tutilidge of the worst coach for centers in the history of the NBA. If only we had given up more to get him, he might have had a chance.

Exactly---------------Right on target APE

capitalcity · 03-05-2005, 01:18 AM

watching the camera cut-aways to the mavs bench you can see Dampier grimacing. He is always stoic. But does watching these beatdowns motivate him to come in and pick up the defensive pieces?

He must know by now that this team needs his physicality, his big body, his strength - he's gotta see they NEED him. Will this tough stretch impress upon him/ light a fire under his ass?