State of a mavs fan - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 02-28-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

What do the Mavs have that leads you to believe they will make a splashy signing or trade? In 2010? And how does doing that Kaman and Baron deal affect them from being able to still make that flashy move? The deal was for Kidd.

They have the two exceptions next season and, if they're willing to go for it, may be one of VERY few teams interested in using them. They also have a significant trade chip this offseason (Stack's contract) and a very significant trade chip next offseason (Damp's contract).

Taking on that kind of salary limits what they can do because it weighs them down in salary. Being willing to go for it is NOT the same as being willing to spend without any limits. Doing that trade would have put enough salary on the books that I doubt very seriously they would have been interested in cashing in Stack's contract this offseason for a longer, more expensive one.

What it really comes down to is that some people around here view Baron Davis as an elite level player that would put this team over the top, and he's just not that player, even when he's healthy.

dude1394 · 02-28-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalger

I know that the pros and cons of getting Davis and Kaman have been discussed. While I think that we would be a better team with them than we are now, I'm not sure that it would put us over the top which should be the main interest in putting such a big deal together. Davis' contract (Kaman's not so much) and their health issues are potentially problematic as well.

I would have liked to see a deal to at least have some hope for this post season, but sometimes no deal is the best deal. Still, something like Diop/Barea for Felton or Stack/Bass for Kaman would have been nice and maybe not even that unrealistic.

It would sure as heck (imo) put us in the top four of the western conference..and that's about as good a guarantee as you can have....period.

If cubes wanted to then tear it down..he could tear it down easily imo. Kaman is an easy trade. Dirk would be an easy trade. If they wanted to tear it down to bdavis + nobody...they could do it.

I do NOT buy that if you wanted to tear it down you couldn't do it because of one guys contract...you just give him away.

dude1394 · 02-28-2009, 06:01 PM

The 2010 plan is pure bunk imo...as Dlord has pretty much shown. The 2010 says bosh, diva, lebron or someone comes here. I call bull****. Pure and utter bull****.

Who's the two-guard that's going to provide us some scoring in the paint and at the pg position? Who's the 2-guards who's going to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game?

We know it's not kidd...because he doesn't do it now with jet/jjb out there.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-28-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

It would sure as heck (imo) put us in the top four of the western conference..and that's about as good a guarantee as you can have....period.

If cubes wanted to then tear it down..he could tear it down easily imo. Kaman is an easy trade. Dirk would be an easy trade. If they wanted to tear it down to bdavis + nobody...they could do it.

I do NOT buy that if you wanted to tear it down you couldn't do it because of one guys contract...you just give him away.

I agree with a lot of this. The Mavs haven't had an issue moving a contract before. The bad economy could possibly change that though.

I will say this, Davis always shows up in the playoffs. Isn't that just as important as playing well in the regular season? If not more so?

jthig32 · 02-28-2009, 06:33 PM

Baron hadn't ever done anything overly special in the playoffs before he beat the Mavs. Again, Baron Davis is not an elite level player. He's a nice, above average player. He's not even an all star caliber player, really. Not someone that is expected to make the all star team every year, certainly.

I don't get the infatuation.

So I'm not sure how Baron Davis replacing Kidd and Kaman on our bench in street clothes makes this team a top four team. And beyond that, why the hell would you tie yourself that kind of long term salary for a team that is merely top four? That reeks of desperation.

It's not about 2010 free agency. It's about remaining salary flexible to make splashes this offseason and possibly next.

AxdemxO · 02-28-2009, 07:16 PM

If Davis was on a anywhere near a good team, he would be an allstar almost every year. He is just too skilled and physical and can get anything he wants. I was not sure about that trade that was being talked about, wasnt leaning much either way because I really like Kidd. Davis has been on teams that have been in the playoffs, but bad teams. If he was on the Mavs and they were at the level of the last couple of years (IMO that is still a pretty high level) we would be a really good team and he would dominate.

I would go after Davis anyway after this season. The Clipps are one of those teams in trouble. Soo why not offer Jho or Damp and Stack for Davis/Kamen or their 1st rounder. A trade can be worked out that would def. benefit the Mavs more and I think it can still be done over the summer because the Clipps dont want any deeper financial trouble.

I would love to see a line up of:

Kidd
Davis
Josh/Wrigh/other
Dirk
Damp or Kamen with Jet of the bench

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-28-2009, 07:35 PM

Well let us see, I decided to take the time and go back and calculate Davis's combined average playoff stats since 2000-2001...

20.6 ppg, 7.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, 2.3 steals pg while shooting 45% from the field. These are stats in the years his team made the playoffs counting '01, '02, '03, '04, '07.

Look pretty good to me.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-28-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Well let us see, I decided to take the time and go back and calculate Davis's combined average playoff stats since 2000-2001...

20.6 ppg, 7.3 apg, 4.4 rpg, 2.3 steals pg while shooting 45% from the field. These are stats in the years his team made the playoffs counting '01, '02, '03, '04, '07.

Look pretty good to me.

That's pretty definitive. The idea that Baron doesn't perform in the playoffs has been thoroughly debunked.

jthig32 · 02-28-2009, 07:55 PM

I don't think anyone is making the case that he's bad in the playoffs. I said he's never been overly special. And that's actually incorrect. He was pretty darn special the last time he was in the playoffs. But take away that obvious outlier and his stats fall a bit.

Look Baron Davis is a nice player. But he's not an elite player, he's not a durable player, he's not a committed player, and he's not worth his contract.

dalger · 02-28-2009, 08:04 PM

Looking back it's really a pity that the planned trade including Diop and Felton as the main pieces of a Charlotte-Dallas(-OKC) deal didn't work out. If my memory serves me correctly, Augustin's injury and OKC's refusal to do the trade killed it. Assuming that the Mavs wanted to get rid of Diop and the Bobcats were willing to trade Felton but changed their mind because of Augustin's injury, does anyone know if we even offered Barea as a result to help them through Augustin's injury? After all, we wouldn't have needed him anymore.

That trade and a deal of Stack/Bass for Kaman, who should be healthy again someday and isn't all that injury-prone, would have addressed some of our weaknesses and certainly helped us become one of the four best teams in the West (on paper).

We weren't able to get it done, maybe the FO didn't even want to get it done. I'm sure they would have made some additional sacrifices other than offering Diop to get Felton, but I'm not sure that Kaman was ever on their list. Yet he seems to be one of the few centers in the league who would be a definite improvement over Damp and available as well. If we could get him in the coming off-season, we would then have Damp's huge expiring contract to work with next February to get, for example, a shooting guard. Not to mention Stack's contract.

We could also try to move Josh, but it's difficult to find a player with a similar contract who is definitely better. Damp and Kaman do have similar contracts, but in that case it's pretty safe to say who the better player is. And contrary to doing something involving Davis, we wouldn't have to take a huge, long-term contract.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-28-2009, 08:11 PM

Define what a star is?

When fired up, he surely is. I know the motivational thing is an issue but when motivated, he is killer. Killer.

During the regular season, i would agree that he is just a very good player. During the playoffs though....he is all the star the Mavs would need. IMO.

Imagine Davis, Terry, Howard, Dirk, Kaman as our starting line-up. Looks like plenty of trade pieces as well, especially with Stack and Damp coming to a close soon (based on the trade just for Kidd of course)...but woulda, coulda, shoulda.

It is almost impossible to discuss the level of "championshipness" of that squad but if that doesn't make you salivate well then....I dunno. You only don't do that for two reasons: Denial about the Kidd trade or financial reasons. Both too, I guess.

TheMaverick · 02-28-2009, 08:16 PM

I love Baron Davis, but it's tough defending someone that plays 50 games a year.

jthig32 · 02-28-2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Define what a star is?

When fired up, he surely is. I know the motivational thing is an issue but when motivated, he is killer. Killer.

During the regular season, i would agree that he is just a very good player. During the playoffs though....he is all the star the Mavs would need. IMO.

Imagine Davis, Terry, Howard, Dirk, Kaman as our starting line-up. Looks like plenty of trade pieces as well, especially with Stack and Damp coming to a close soon (based on the trade just for Kidd of course)...but woulda, coulda, shoulda.

It is almost impossible to discuss the level of "championshipness" of that squad but if that doesn't make you salivate well then....I dunno. You only don't do that for two reasons: Denial about the Kidd trade or financial reasons. Both too, I guess.

His playoffs numbers are only very marginally better than his regular season numbers. Not sure why he's suddenly an all star in the playoffs.

Also, as I've mentioned before, when you lose Jason Kidd you lose a lot of what Jason Terry is bringing this season because he will get exposed a lot more defensively. Davis is big, but he can't defend like Kidd can.

And again, Chris Kaman hasn't played a game since November because of foot issues.

Your last point is obvious. Obviously the reason you don't do it is because of financial reasons. But there are different types of financial reasons. The Mavs didn't turn this down to save a buck. They turned it down because they want to maintain flexibility for future moves.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-28-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The Mavs didn't turn this down to save a buck. They turned it down because they want to maintain flexibility for future moves.

That may be true, but this front office hasn't done anything in recent history to make me believe that they'll be able to make any moves in the future that will help the team more than this one would have. I mean, it's not very often that a team is offered a trade that vastly improves their scoring in both the frontcourt and the backcourt. True, that lineup would have problems defensively, but offensively the Mavs would have as much firepower as anyone in the league.

With regards to Baron's contract, you're right. He's probably not worth his contract. But again, I have absolutely no reason to believe that the FO will find a better way to spend that money.

ghazi · 02-28-2009, 11:23 PM

If J-Ho's final year is a team option, isn't he a valuable trading chip this summer?

J-Blunts gots to go. His best days are really behind him. Too erratic, too inconsistent, mentally soft, no bball IQ. Yeah.... not a huge J-Ho fan.

BGMaverick9 · 02-28-2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

If J-Ho's final year is a team option, isn't he a valuable trading chip this summer?

J-Blunts gots to go. His best days are really behind him. Too erratic, too inconsistent, mentally soft, no bball IQ. Yeah.... not a huge J-Ho fan.

It is...it just depends on how Dallas wants to use it.

Dirkadirkastan · 02-28-2009, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

But again, I have absolutely no reason to believe that the FO will find a better way to spend that money.

This.

Dtownsfinest · 02-28-2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

They have the two exceptions next season and, if they're willing to go for it, may be one of VERY few teams interested in using them. They also have a significant trade chip this offseason (Stack's contract) and a very significant trade chip next offseason (Damp's contract).

Taking on that kind of salary limits what they can do because it weighs them down in salary. Being willing to go for it is NOT the same as being willing to spend without any limits. Doing that trade would have put enough salary on the books that I doubt very seriously they would have been interested in cashing in Stack's contract this offseason for a longer, more expensive one.

What it really comes down to is that some people around here view Baron Davis as an elite level player that would put this team over the top, and he's just not that player, even when he's healthy.

I disagree about Baron not being an elite player. Talent-wise he's just as talented as any other point guard in this league. While I think of our views may be a bit skewed because our last impression of Baron was based on what he did to use a couple of seasons ago I think your view is just as skewed by looking at what he's done with a non contender. But let me say this. I like Baron's game and I think he'll contribute here but I don't pull this deal if we don't get Kaman. He's worth taking on Baron's contract. This team can't continue to try and excel in this league without scoring in the post. Every team has it whether its from the 5 or 4 spot and we don't have any producing points for us in the paint. Kaman would've been a big step forward to get that.

ghazi · 02-28-2009, 11:50 PM

Isn't Kaman getting a little bit overrated around here?

Dude's played 15 games this year. 15.

If he's such a low post presence? How come he hardly ever gets to the line?

For his career, 48.9% shooting and 2.8 FTA's per game... yeah.... post presences are usually above 50% and get to the line 6+ times per game. And yeah.... dude can't stay healthy.

I think the guy's overrated. He's not even an elite center in this league. Certainly better than Damp, but not by as much as people think.

ghazi · 02-28-2009, 11:55 PM

FWIW, I've hardly watched Kaman play (first off he's unhealthy often, and 2nd off who the F watches the Clippers?)

But something about his stats tell me he and Davis wouldn't have the dynamic impact on this team that some would think.

BGMaverick9 · 03-01-2009, 01:27 AM

I like Kaman, but I wouldn't say he's the second coming of a dominant center in the league.

I think the overhyping might be in light of the fact that over the years we really haven't had anything of major substance in the middle. So if someone can actually bring something, then he'll be hyped to the moon.

It's hard for me to judge whether the health is an actual factor or it's a mild factor and playing for the Clippers is the bigger factor.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-01-2009, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Isn't Kaman getting a little bit overrated around here?

Dude's played 15 games this year. 15.

If he's such a low post presence? How come he hardly ever gets to the line?

For his career, 48.9% shooting and 2.8 FTA's per game... yeah.... post presences are usually above 50% and get to the line 6+ times per game. And yeah.... dude can't stay healthy.

I think the guy's overrated. He's not even an elite center in this league. Certainly better than Damp, but not by as much as people think.

I don't think anyone is calling him elite, but he is an upgrade over Damp. Nobody's calling him a star here. But there are so few centers in the NBA that have even a spec of offensive skill and he's one of them.

TheMaverick · 03-01-2009, 02:16 AM

Kaman is already 27 years old. He's a big guy with a bad back... it doesn't bode well for the guy.

dalger · 03-01-2009, 08:12 AM

The "problem" is that we have to find a new center within the next 18 months, or does anyone think that we should extend Damp's contract and hope that he's not enough of a liability (at 35 and older) as far as winning a championship is concerned? Damp isn't a bad center at all, but he's more overpaid than a Baron Davis could ever be and his $12 million contract could be a very valuable asset with 2010 in mind. A center who is capable of scoring would really help us on many levels, and it's the position where we lack production the most thus it's easier to improve there. With that in mind, how many options do we have that are significantly more promising than someone like Kaman? It's not that I specifically would like to see Kaman in a Mavs jersey, I'd take any talented center with similar skills.

purplefrog · 03-01-2009, 11:41 AM

Mavs' Summer of 2009

mac222b · 03-01-2009, 06:54 PM

It's just that Kaman is extremely effective in the low post one-on-one. He has some of the best footwork in the game and a little half hook which is hard to defend. It would be soooo nice to have someone to dump the ball into when we need a basket. It would maximize Dirk's(and Jet's)potential in a way even Kidd can't.

Tokey41 · 03-01-2009, 07:53 PM

Kaman's contract isn't too shabby either (for a big man). And not to bring up a debate that people around here obviously don't believe in, but playing for a bad team tends to make some players... less inclined to come back from injuries as fast as they could (or play through injuries they could).

As I said, Davis would be one hell of an expensive role player on this team... but isn't that what Damp is right now? The only difference is that I see a lot more potential in Davis to contribute in many other areas during the playoffs (and his stats back that up, also funny how he's never been too hurt to play during the playoffs... he knows what matters and what doesn't).

TheMaverick · 03-02-2009, 02:29 PM

The plan is for J.J. Barea to head to Oklahoma City after visiting a dentist this morning. The detour is necessary after he busted two teeth when he dove for a loose ball and had Jose Calderon crash down on his noggin, leading to a mouth/hardwood meeting.

The play caused Rick Carlisle to show his pearly whites. He mentioned that new assistant coach Darrell Armstrong, who got a million floor burns during his days as an NBA point guard, has rubbed off on Barea.
Dirk welcomed Barea into the Busted Teeth Club. Dirk has taken more than a few blows to his mouth, the most famous one occurring during a 2001 playoff game against the Spurs, when he missed only 33 seconds after losing a tooth during a 30-point performance.

"He's a tough little guy," Dirk said of Barea. "The dentists these days are so good -- ahhhh, look at me [showing his teeth for the cameras] -- he'll look good for the ladies again."

Matter of fact, Barea might look better than ever, if he takes Jason Terry's advice.

"He's got a new grill coming," Jet said. "I told him to put some diamonds in it."