Some Christians Never Give Up...lol

[Usually Lurkin]

I would hope there is less bigotry in the "saved" church than in "lost" society. I don't think most Christians's feelings about Homosexuality is intentionaly mean or hard hearted,

The important question to me is, what is it that the church is doing that reduces the level of bigotry among its members? We could maybe do more of it.

once again I think we may have found our area of confusion. I am not such a person. Though I hope to treat homosexuals with dignity and respect (the same dignity and respect I hope to show all men and women) I do find it Biblically to be a sin.

I didn't mean to suggest that you would be. I meant to suggest that you are more willing to find such a person in the world than you would be to find someone suggesting the adulterer does not need to repent, and that this difference has an influence on how one deals with people involved in homosexuality or adultery.

and you'll find them in churches every Sunday...pretending like no ONE (notice the capital letters) knows

right. and habitual gamblers, pornographers, alcoholics, and sinners of all sorts. And they stay there willing to be lectured to about the nature of their own sins.
I think unrepentent homosexuals, though, are more willing to leave a church that says homosexuality is a sin, and join one that does not. This makes it more intimidating to reach out to them. Society is building for them not only a rationality that excuses the behavior, but one that explains the behavior as a gift from God. Reaching out to that - to someone who has already decided they don't even want to listen, is hard.

I think you are right - that homosexuality is often treated differently by Christians for other reasons. Those probably have something to do with a lack of identification with the temptation, an influence by bigotry in society, the fact that even holy sexuality is often a taboo topic in church, and other reasons. It might not be as pervasive as the "Christian culture", though. It sounds like yourself, and the few churches that I've learned from, and even George Bush are examples of the opposite (perhaps these are exceptions, though).

as I've said multiple times now, UL, (I think all this is mostly caused by lack of detail in our posts and the other guy making assumptions)...I think we agree. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I think so, too. I've been approaching this discussion with the idea of surfacing those issues that keep churches from reaching out to homosexuals, focusing on the changing view of homosexuality in our society. The refusal to admit to sin is a very tricky subject, and conversations concerning homosexuality often deal with it, and it often places an impassable wall between people otherwise willing to share in Christ. This has been a good discussion for exploring those issues. It'd be nice to be able to avoid the wall without ceding any of what God has given to us.

[sike]

great post UL [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Chiwas]

Give to Caesar, what is Caesar's.

But give to God, what is God's.

Use it and you will find answers for this topic, I think.

[FreshJive]

Thanks for the responses UL and Sike. I think I can see more clearly where you are coming from. I just don't get why a certain sin is worth giving up on someone's soul. If humans are doomed to sin then they will never completely stop sinning, and they are likely to keep repeating the same sins thier entire lives because humans are creatures of habit. So by your logic everyone will fail to acheive salvation because they will never prove to truly be sorry for all the sins they commit, because even if they stop smoking crack they will replace that sin with new ones.

Also, if someone really has convinced themselves that they are supposed to be gay then no matter how much they are commited to serving God they may never make the logical connection that God doesn't want them to be gay. You must have colleagues that disagree with your interpretations of scripture on any number of subjects. If someone is around other likeminded dedicated Chrisatians then they may never actually get God's message that thier behavior is indeed wrong even though they are truly trying to glorify him. If God really thinks homosexuality is a sin, then there will be Christians that do not understand this because humans cannot possibly get everything right. This is all assuming that homosexuality is indeed a sin of course, but you also must at least entertain the thought that you may have it wrong about this one. I grew up in a Baptist church and there was always some kind of crazy infighting and disturbing views about the outside world over some silly things IMO. My parents were/are more dedicated to thier religion than anyone and even they had to roll thier eyes when our pator passed out flyers calling for a boycott of Disney and the like.

Sorry if this reply is weak. I'll give your answers more thought later. I'm thinking about KVH right now (in a most hetero way).

[dalmations202]

I have a question, I am not a christian so I would like to know why homosexuals are shunned even though there is nothing mentioned about it in the 10 Commandments.

I guess I have to put my 2 cents worth in here. I am a Bible believing Christian.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Lev 18:23 And thou shalt not lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith; neither shall any woman stand before a beast, to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Lev 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Deu 22:5 A woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah thy God.

Pro 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to Jehovah; But he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to Jehovah.

Rev 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or <u>he that maketh an abomination</u> and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Why are they shunned by Christians? Because the Bible says it is abomination. It is included in the 10 commandments here:
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

As I have matured as a Christian, I have come to realize that it is not the gay people, but the SIN that is hated. If they are sinning (and we all do every day), then we need to repent. We need to change our ways, and get back in line with God, and develop the relationship with him. It is impossible to grow closer to God, and his ways, if we do not repent. Salvation is through Jesus Christ who died for our sins. If we do not ask for him to come into our lives, and intervene with God on our behalf, then we will be condemned to an eternity w/o God.

Why did God turn his back on Jesus, when he was on the cross. Answer - because Sin was poured out on him. When we sin, we can ask forgiveness and change our ways. If you believe that you were born to be gay- and do not change yourself, then you have no repentance.
Subsequently you have no repentance, you cannot get into heaven.

If two people want to live together in sin (either male-male or female-female) and this country wants to give them special rights as a couple, then so be it. Give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's. But, if they want to call it marriage then I have a problem, because marriage is defined in the Bible. (I won't take the time to make the argument here, but this also can include male-female living in sin).

Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:31 <u> And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.</u> And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Gen 2:18 And Jehovah God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.
Gen 2:22 and the rib, which Jehovah God had taken from the man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And the man said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, <u>and shall cleave unto his wife</u>: and they shall be one flesh.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; <u>and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. </u>



So, God made man and woman. He blessed "them". He put into a man the idea of leaving his family for a WIFE so they could be one flesh. He made a womans desire to be to thy husband.

Any thing going against this is wrong and SINFUL. No matter how man tries to justify it. He says in Pro 17:15 don't try to justify the wicked. Pray for the wicked. Try to help the wicked see that they are sinners, and need to repent. Help all you can, but do not justify what the wicked are doing, and call it OK.

So, no I cannot justify this. It is still wrong, no matter who thinks it is right. I guess it comes down to either the Bible and God are "Right" or man and is ideas are "right". I'll stand with God over public opinion every time.