GDT: Grizz vs Mavericks, 11/2/2013, 7:30 p.m. central - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

And Chandler and Marion anchored one of the best two years ago and yet neither received any recognition.

Yeah it was a JOKE.

Well...your lack of a basketball IQ is showing, I'm afraid. The Mavs were not a top 5 defensive team in 2011. The Grizzlies were a top 3 defense last year. Moreover, Tyson got him a real UNDESERVED DPOY in 12' largely based on the 11' playoff run.

I love Trix, but he was never in contention. Defensive anchors are far more pivotal than wing defenders.

Gasol had a 98 DRtg last year and a 5.4 defensive win shares.

For comparison, when Ty won his DPOY he had a 99 DRtg and 3.6 defensive win shares. Nothing to scoff at, but not at Gasol's level. His 11' numbers were a 101 DRtg and 3.5 defensive win shares.

Not to mention the Grizz gave up SEVEN more points per 100 possessions with him on the bench last year.

Like I said, I think Roy is a better anchor. But calling it a joke is...well, a joke.

sike · 11-02-2013, 09:37 PM

Keep running that Ellis P&R until they stop it.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

It is an individual award and Gasol isn't even the best defender on his own team.

Tony Allen is a very nice wing defender. But that's a really ignorant comment. You're overstating the importance of a wing defender vs. an anchor. It's like saying George is a more valuable defender than Hibbert. As great as he is, he's not.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:40 PM

Dirk has been straight ballin' in 4th quarters this year (when he doesn't foul out). Nothing new there.

Kante · 11-02-2013, 09:43 PM

At the end, we should add 5 assists to Ellis stats for all the good looks he created and the guys missed.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Well...your lack of a basketball IQ is showing, I'm afraid. The Mavs were not a top 5 defensive team in 2011. The Grizzlies were a top 3 defense last year. Moreover, Tyson got him a real UNDESERVED DPOY in 12' largely based on the 11' playoff run.

I love Trix, but he was never in contention. Defensive anchors are far more pivotal than wing defenders.

Gasol had a 98 DRtg last year and a 5.4 defensive win shares.

For comparison, when Ty won his DPOY he had a 99 DRtg and 3.6 defensive win shares. Nothing to scoff at, but not at Gasol's level. His 11' numbers were a 101 DRtg and 3.5 defensive win shares.

Not to mention the Grizz gave up SEVEN more points per 100 possessions with him on the bench last year.

Like I said, I think Roy is a better anchor. But calling it a joke is...well, a joke.

Are you really going to use Defensive win shares? And that 7 points difference was more in the fact that they didn't play a center last year except him.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 09:45 PM

Mavs starting to blow them out.

sike · 11-02-2013, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostOfAdamMorrison

Tony Allen is a very nice wing defender. But that's a really ignorant comment. You're overstating the importance of a wing defender vs. an anchor. It's like saying George is a more valuable defender than Hibbert. As great as he is, he's not.

I'm not overvaluing anything. I'm making a comment on who the better defender at his position is. EVERY year except last season the award is about who is the best defender NOT what position of the 5 is the most valuable defensively.

Hibbert, Chandler, Howard are all better defenders at the Center position. Hands down.

You've obviously bought into the metric based argument that was made for Gasol.

I simply do not.

Aggie E · 11-02-2013, 09:47 PM

Mavs winning a slowdown half-court physical game where they are shooting 40% by 15 pts. Who woulda thunk it

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I'm not overvaluing anything. I'm making a comment on who the better defender at his position is. EVERY year except last season the award is about who is the best defender NOT what position of the 5 is the most valuable defensively.

Hibbert, Chandler, Howard are all better defenders at the Center position. Hands down.

You've obviously bought into the metric based argument that was made for Gasol.

I simply do not.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Roy is, as I said, a better anchor. A healthy Orlando Howard is as well. Howard the past 2-3 years is not. He blocks more shots, but he's far worse on rotations and PnR defense. Tyson...well, there's really no cogent argument there. You could make a better case for Noah. Tyson gets overrated around here, and that's natural. I loved his time here.

sike · 11-02-2013, 09:50 PM

Ellis needs some love from his teammates. He has given them open shot after open shot and they just REFUSE to make a shot.

I bet if I rewatched this game he should have something like 7 or 8 dimes.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 09:51 PM

And why not just put Dirk in during the timeout?

Vinsanity · 11-02-2013, 09:52 PM

Wow,forgot Memphis even had Mike Miller. They should play him more. He's easily their 4th best player behind Randolph, Gasol and Conley

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Are you really going to use Defensive win shares? And that 7 points difference was more in the fact that they didn't play a center last year except him.

1. Defensive Win Shares are a fine supplemental stat when contextualized.

2. Well, that's not true. The Grizz had a very good defender in Ed Davis backing him up for part of the season. Before that, Speights/Haddadi were average at best. But it's not like Tyson is NY was backed up by a good center, either. It doesn't diminish the stat.

Here's another perspective on the importance of Gasol's defense.

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/3/15/41...er-of-the-year

Underdog · 11-02-2013, 09:54 PM

Marion trying to steal the Game Ball.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:54 PM

Great game for Matrix.

Aggie E · 11-02-2013, 09:54 PM

Blair is a breakin BEAST!!!

Vinsanity · 11-02-2013, 09:54 PM

I'm really lovin what Blair has done so far this season

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinsanity

I'm really lovin what Blair has done so far this season

Blair was a bargain for the price. He does what he does very well.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

2. Well, that's not true. The Grizz had a very good defender in Ed Davis backing him up for part of the season. Before that, Speights/Haddadi were average at best. But it's not like Tyson is NY was backed up by a good center, either. It doesn't diminish the stat.

None of those guys are centers.

Sportstudi · 11-02-2013, 09:56 PM

Should have been an offensive foul on Gasol.

Underdog · 11-02-2013, 09:56 PM

Ellis getting no respect on that charge.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 09:57 PM

Come on guys...

Vinsanity · 11-02-2013, 09:58 PM

Wow MEM refuses to go away

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

None of those guys are centers.

Lolz. Not really much I can say to someone who doesn't think Haddadi is a center...

(BTW, Davis and Speights both played over 50% of their minutes at center with Memphis...)

sike · 11-02-2013, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostOfAdamMorrison

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. Roy is, as I said, a better anchor. A healthy Orlando Howard is as well. Howard the past 2-3 years is not. He blocks more shots, but he's far worse on rotations and PnR defense. Tyson...well, there's really no cogent argument there. You could make a better case for Noah. Tyson gets overrated around here, and that's natural. I loved his time here.

We're done on this topic. I don't have the energy to argue with someone who thinks Marc Gasol is a stellar defender. He is very solid. Very good.

A phenomenal question would be "How good of a defender is Marc Gasol over the course of a season without THE best defensive backcourt in the league?"

Something Howard and Chandler have never even sniffed in their great defensive careers.

And I agree that Noah is also a better defender than Gasol.

Sportstudi · 11-02-2013, 10:00 PM

Lol at that clip with Dirk

Aggie E · 11-02-2013, 10:00 PM

Good win against a pretty good team. PROTECT THIS HOUSE!

Kante · 11-02-2013, 10:02 PM

Good win!

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

We're done on this topic. I don't have the energy to argue with someone who thinks Marc Gasol is a stellar defender. He is very solid. Very good.

A phenomenal question would be "How good of a defender is Marc Gasol over the course of a season without THE best defensive backcourt in the league?"

Something Howard and Chandler have never even sniffed in their great defensive careers.

And I agree that Noah is also a better defender than Gasol.

Well, Gasol IS a stellar defender. That's irrefutable. I would be happy to hear a cogent argument on your part as to why/how he's not. Something other than, "he's not" would be a start.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 10:04 PM

Nice way to close.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 10:06 PM

Ellis with a great bounceback half. Would love to see him play like that more often.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Lolz. Not really much I can say to someone who doesn't think Haddadi is a center...

A power forward masquerading as a center. Has no back to the basket game. Doesn't rebound. Doesn't block shots. He's listed as a center but he's not a "center"..... and no surprise that they released him.

Quote:

(BTW, Davis and Speights both played over 50% of their minutes at center with Memphis...)

Blair plays minutes at center. Doesn't make him a center on the Mavs.

LSMF · 11-02-2013, 10:07 PM

Great win tonight.

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 10:07 PM

Nice win.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

A power forward masquerading as a center. Has no back to the basket game. Doesn't rebound. Doesn't block shots. He's listed as a center but he's not a "center"..... and no surprise that they released him.

Blair plays minutes at center. Doesn't make him a center on the Mavs.

Good lord...just stop. Please. You're embarrassing yourself. Haddadi is 7 foot two! The only position he's played in his life is center! And since when is having a post game a prerequisite for being a center? Most NBA centers have no post game today. He doesn't rebound? His career RB% is 27%! He has has a 7% career block percentage! Those are the only two things he does (very) well! C'mon, dude,...

Bayliss · 11-02-2013, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Good lord...just stop. Please. You're embarrassing yourself. Haddadi is 7 foot two! The only position he's played in his life is center! And since when is having a post game a prerequisite for being a center? Most NBA centers have no post game today. He doesn't rebound? His career RB% is 27%! He has has a 7% career block percentage! Those are the only two things he does (very) well! C'mon, dude,...

Ralph Sampson was 7'2" as well. He wasn't a center either.

Are you really using percentages for him? Oh wait, you have to because he has never played more than like 5 minutes per game for his career.

And now he's out of the league.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Ralph Sampson was 7'2" as well. He wasn't a center either.

Are you really using percentages for him? Oh wait, you have to because he has never played more than like 5 minutes per game for his career.

And now he's out of the league.

Sigh...

You're just digging your hole deeper. No one is saying Haddadi is a good basketball player. But he's undeniably a center! 100% of his minutes come there. He's a big, clumsy center who can rebound and block shots, but has no touch, lateral quickness, and is very foul prone. That's why he got waived. But the man is a center.

sike · 11-02-2013, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostOfAdamMorrison

Well, Gasol IS a stellar defender. That's irrefutable. I would be happy to hear a cogent argument on your part as to why/how he's not. Something other than, "he's not" would be a start.

Stellar is, of course, an objective term in this case. There is not a certain accepted criteria for one to be considered "stellar", so we should drop that. It is enough to say that I can offer several CENTERS that I see as better defenders than Gasol. The weakness of the Gasol for DPY is that it doesn't/can't take away from him the fact that he is on the best defensive team in the league. And "YES", he is a huge contributor to that...but so is the scheme they ran under Hollins, and the exceptional defensive guard play from Allen and Conley. They each contribute to other's greatness.

When I watch Gasol, I see a very good defender in the perfect scheme for his somewhat limited athleticism and surrounded by the best defensive cast in the entire league. For example, would Gasol win DPY as a Mav? I don't think there is a chance. The rest of the squad is simply not good enough to play to his strengths or offset his weaknesses.

In contrast, Chandler guards the rim in sieve known as New York where none of the main rotation players are elite level defenders. That earns him my respect. And I know you're new around here, but I do not overrate him. Though some do on this forum and TONS of people do in this city, I am not among that number. Surround Gasol with that cast in NY and see what he looks like.

Hibbert, Noah, Howard *I would put these 3 ahead of Gasol and Chandler* are, in my mind, all clearly better pure on the ball defenders. I haven't taken time to study how each guards the P&R or how they rotate. But I've seen them all play enough games to know that when I see Gasol, I don't see the same thing.

You want me to make some kind of detailed statistical argument? Nope. Not worth my time.

But on a side note, I would encourage you to be slower in calling people's basketball IQ into question. That is a less than "stellar" move on your part. There is a thousand better ways to express your disagreement with someone.

By the way, in the Mavs game tonight, did you see "stellar" defense by Gasol? Because I saw what I've always seen. A very good defender, but not a game changing defender. Not the type of defender who by his very presence in the paint puts doubt into his opposition's mind.

If I do recall, Gasol winning the DPY was a little controversial.

Here is a decent article on just that: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ward-is-flawed

The conclusion is something like, we know he isn't the single best defensive player...but he is the center on the best defensive team in the league and centers almost always win. (Poor LeBron).

And that much is undeniable. Gasol is on the perfect team and in the perfect scheme for his particular skills.

I'm just of the mind that the DPY should ALWAYS go to the best individual defender in the league. While at the same time realizing that it usually goes to the Bigs.

GhostOfAdamMorrison · 11-02-2013, 11:10 PM

Don't link me to bleacher report!