60 Years Ago -- Thank You America!

[twelli]

Thank you, America, for taking part in the liberating of Europe and allowing us younger Europeans to grow up in peace and prosperity!



June 6, 1944 -- D-Day

Up to 4,000 Allied troops died on D-Day alone


What was the significance of D-Day?

D-Day signalled the start of the Allies' invasion of western Europe in June 1944, and a crucial turning point in the war with Nazi Germany.

Russia was making progress towards Berlin, farther to the east.

But Allied commanders agreed a second front was needed to defeat Germans occupying much of western Europe.

Thousands of mainly Americans and Canadians joined British naval, air and ground troops in southern England, to prepare for Operation Overlord.


When did it take place?

D-Day had been planned for more than a year, and those who were to take part spent several months training.

The ambitious air and sea assault was dependent on a combination of factors, including the weather, tidal conditions and most important of all, surprise.

Despite forecasts of poor weather, it was originally scheduled for 5 June.

But storms forced Supreme Allied Commander Gen Dwight Eisenhower to put it back 24 hours. Finally, the weather improved and he gave the command.


How many troops were involved?

A total of 156,000 men took part in D-Day, but many times that number were to be involved in the ensuing campaign over the next few months.

Airborne troops were parachuted into Normandy in the hours before the main seaborne invasion party landed.

A total of 6,000 ships and landing craft were involved, delivering troops to five beaches along a carefully selected stretch of the Normandy coast.

On D-Day alone, up to 3,000 Allied troops died. Some 9,000 were wounded or missing.


What happened on D-Day?

A brilliant deception plan led German military leaders to suspect the main invasion would be farther up the coast.

The surprise element helped British and Canadian troops in particular establish footholds at beaches codenamed Gold, Juno and Sword.

American soldiers also managed to land on the westernmost beach - Utah - without major casualties.

But at nearby Omaha, they suffered severe losses as they encountered a crack division of German troops.


What happened after D-Day?

Once the beaches were secure, progress through the narrow lanes and staunchly defended towns of Normandy was slow.

But with the Allies outnumbering their enemy and supported by their air superiority, they were able to overcome the considerable resistance - though at a heavy price.

By the time they crossed the Seine and liberated Paris in late August, around 10% of the Allies' two million troops had been killed, wounded or were missing.

But the success of Operation Overlord was to pave the way for Allied victory.

[FullBurst41]

And kudos to the B-17 "Flying Fortress" pilots who were instrumental throughout the war in Western Europe and helped make D-Day possible.

[Fidel]

Yeah thanks for beating the crap out of us (Germany) and bombing most of our citys back to stoneage. This year the media is really stuffing this D Day crap down our throats. Schröder is even going to the D Day parade in france (the first german chancelor to do so). How obedient could we possibly be? The allies won the war, they took a good portion of our land, millions had to leave the old eastern parts of germany, most of our citys were destroyed, our country was split. Since we started the war and the Hitler regime did alot of horrible things we definitly deserved what we got. I´m not a nazi and I´m glad that Hitler was removed. But having a party because of it? No thanks not for me. Let the old allies have their parades, they deserve it.

[dude1394]

YOU are welcome fidel. I do hand it to you germans however, It took TWO world wars AND getting the crap kicked out of you to finally get it through your thick skull that you weren't destined to rule the world.


Good grief fidel this statement is moronic when taken with the rest of your rant.

I´m not a nazi and I´m glad that Hitler was removed

Just how in the world do you think he WAS removed. You think we should have all just sung kum-ba-ya until he had finished conquering the rest of europe. I can see that you are upset about what happened during WWII. Heck I'm a southernor and still mildly pissed off about sherman, but hey, he had it right and war is hell man.

But it sounds like spilt milk, You guys started the whole thing.

[FullBurst41]

He does have a point, Dude. However I do believe it's wrong to blame anyone for bombing cities, it was odne by all powers in the war, even the Americans got a taste of what it's like. It unfortunately was a common thing back then, sometimes with horrific results (the fire in Tokyo, Dresden, Stalingrad, etc).

Actually, singing kum-baya might have worked, seeing as how good a strategist HItler was. *cough* It wouldn't have been pretty on the non-Aryans though. I would not call Fidel thick-skulled, or believing that his country could rule the world , fr that matter. I think only Hitler believed truly in such a hilarious idea. How can someone rule the world without a decent navy anyway. Oh well.

[dude1394]

Yes he has a point, but it's kind of silly don't you think? I don't have a clue how many americans/brits/canadians/etc. were lost invading europe, but it was a bunch, not to mention the millions of jews, jehovahs witnesses, handicapped, etc. Anything to end the war quicker (ala sherman) is a good in my mind, aguing that the allies were too "rough" doing it is ridiculous. Quite frankly I wished we had the abomb way before dday, then we could have ended the damn thing without it. Tough for the german people, but again, they started it, don't whine when you get your rear end kicked and the guy doing the kicking is too "mean". It's silly.

Excuse my exuberance. He only wanted to control the land mass of europe, britain, russia, africa, middle east, etc. Yea there are a few left out. But it's arguing semantics, I THINK you understood my point.

Let's jump to the day IF hitler does this. Again you are arguing that he "didn't" have a navy , so he couldn't have ruled the world. So exactly what would have kept him from building one, once he contained the wealth (and pillaged it) of 2/3's of the land mass of the world. And almost all of the industrialized. It seems a a moot point.

[mavsman]

Dude, sometimes your train of thought is a hard one to follow. In numerous threads you wrote about the German people that were freed from the nazi reign by the allies, implying correctly that they were victims of a cruel regime. Now you say that "they" (meaning the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians that have been killed during the bombings of Dresden, Magdeburg, Pforzheim, Nuremburg, Wuerzburg, Munich, Leipzig, Kiel, Muenster, etc.) "started it". Victims or perpetrators, which one is it? I agree with you that this war needed to end as fast as possible, but as there was absolutely no military need to bomb the civilian population like the allies did after D-Day, there's no need at all for Germany to celebrate that part of the war, and that's what Fidel said, if I got him correctly.

[dude1394]

They (german governement) started it. You are personalizing it too much. ME (the american south) pretty much started the civil war and the north kicked our butt including shermans most horrific march. I'm still po'd about it but I understand it.

They (the german people) WERE the victims of a cruel regime but I'm not sure how many to be honest. They certainly defended the regime well to not be so supportive.

The point is basically tough. When your governement starts something then the people have to suffer for it. The ONLY reason that we didn't basically level iraq in some respects was because technologically we could get rid of sadaam without it. Also sadaams army didn't fanatically defend iraq like the germans did. So for quite a few in Germany the regime wasn't so damn bad.

After writing this I"m not so sure that I was that sympathetic to the german people, the jews, others there yes. If I implied it I don't really remember it. Maybe a link would help.

[Fidel]

Dude I think you didn´t understand what I´m trying to say.

There are two things to this for me. First freeing germany from the nazi regime was a good thing. But there is not even a discussion whether or not the bombing and complete destruction of alot of german citys in 44/45 was necessary to achieve that goal. The bombings weren not necessary as was the banishment of millions of german people (Sudetendeutsche) at least not in the form it happened. And finally the split of Germany was unnessary and the ongoing military presence of the allys that came with it. Germany was the focal point of the cold war and we realy didn´t have a chance then to except US military presence for our safety. But it still sucked. It sucked to grow up in a non souvereign country.

And it sucks to have to apologize for something the generation of our grandfathers and our grandgrandfathers did. I´m a patriot and I love my country. You still won´t hear these two things from a german too often. We as a collective are still so ashamed of what Hitler did 60 years ago that many of us believe it´s better to hate our own country. These are the two reasons why I want no part of D-Day: what happened to germany in world war two, and the fact that celebrating D Day in Germany is just a continuation of our subserviant routine.

Germany is a great country and I wish alot more people around here would realise that. I wish we could sing our national anthem with the same pride the americans or italian or british people do (and by the way: I´m really getting goose bumps when I see how you guys celebrate the american national anthem or the seveth inning stretch over there at sporting events, it´s part of why I love your country. In Germany especially most of the intellectuals, of which I consider myself being one, are still ashamed and believe they aren´t allowed to have true feelings when they hear the national anthem). That´s the biggest reason why I want no part of D Day. I`m a proud german and I don´t want to apologize for that. I´m well aware of what happened in the past but as far as I´m concerned I´m sick and tired of hearing about it all the time (and yes you need to be aware of it, I just think we don´t need to get it rubbed in time after time like it´s happening right now. Other countrys have done their fare share of horrible things too, I´m just naming the russian gulag as an example, but do they hear about it all the time? No. So why us Germans? Especially the youinger ones?). I hope you understand that.

It´s not a shot against the allys. What they did was necessary with the few exceptions I mentioned. And all of your veterans well deserve their parades. I just think it´s nothing germany should be a part of.

[dude1394]

I think I'm understanding what you are saying. But I have to again say tough, really. I think I understand your passion about the distruction, but I just don't agree that the bombing of cities wasn't a viable war aim.

Sherman marching to the sea and burning a path in the south 60 miles wide, razing all of the cities, killing all of the livestock, burning all crops, etc was (imo) pretty similar to what you are talking about. Although it was brutal, it was effective in breaking the spirit of the south.

The bombing of european cities was an attempt to do the same. It was ALL-OUT war of a kind we have not seen very much of. Although I'm no expert, if the bombings reduced the capabilities of the geman military complex by 5 percent, it was worth it in my mind.

As far as the splitting of the country being unnecessary, yea maybe, but russia had troops there and the only way to NOT split the country would have been to be willing to take the fight to moscow, again in my opinion. Wasn't going to happen. It was unfortunate for all of the eastern european countries. They paid dearly under "uncle stalin" and our democratic party and leftists emboldened the communists.

You guys should get the hell over it, stand up and be proud of your country, it's a great country. You would be shocked at how much respect the US has for germans, until recently to be honest. Aligning yourselves with france really rubs us the wrong way, it's spineless and cowardly.

Wallowing in remorse is counter-productive. I think it's a large part of the problem with your country right now, a lack of confidence. To sort of kowtow to the french as schroder seems to do is insulting and to let the stinking international opinion make you less than proud of yourself is ridiculous. The "international opinion" will NEVER let you forget it, it allows them to have power over you. Tell them to shove it up their ass and go on about it. Reform your social policies, get back to work doing great things.

You guys are known over here as some of the greatest mechanical technicians and artisans in the world. Precise, hard-working, diligent. You should take a back seat to no one. I wouldn't if I lived there, until NOW that is. I don't feel this is honorable.

Long speech, but you can either feel sorry for yourselves forever or get over yourselves and get back to competing and being the best that you can be. I don't know what the religious situation is in germany but if it's like france, then maybe you are already doomed. I don't see much chance for countries with no basis for morality. Their compass is off.

[Fidel]

I think I'm understanding what you are saying. But I have to again say tough, really. I think I understand your passion about the distruction, but I just don't agree that the bombing of cities wasn't a viable war aim.

Sherman marching to the sea and burning a path in the south 60 miles wide, razing all of the cities, killing all of the livestock, burning all crops, etc was (imo) pretty similar to what you are talking about. Although it was brutal, it was effective in breaking the spirit of the south.

The bombing of european cities was an attempt to do the same. It was ALL-OUT war of a kind we have not seen very much of. Although I'm no expert, if the bombings reduced the capabilities of the geman military complex by 5 percent, it was worth it in my mind.

All I know is that Germany was done when most of the bombings occured. We allready had an army of children mostly (Hitler Jugend). So we have to disagree on this one.

As far as the splitting of the country being unnecessary, yea maybe, but russia had troops there and the only way to NOT split the country would have been to be willing to take the fight to moscow, again in my opinion. Wasn't going to happen. It was unfortunate for all of the eastern european countries. They paid dearly under "uncle stalin" and our democratic party and leftists emboldened the communists.

The split wasn´t your fault alone that´s for sure. And it was necessary in the early years. I just don´t think it was necessary for such a long time. Most of the blame goes to Russia and France (who didn´t want a reunited Germany under all circumstances, I can see them wetting their pants right now) however, I think you would agree with this.

You guys should get the hell over it, stand up and be proud of your country, it's a great country. You would be shocked at how much respect the US has for germans, until recently to be honest. Aligning yourselves with france really rubs us the wrong way, it's spineless and cowardly.

Wallowing in remorse is counter-productive. I think it's a large part of the problem with your country right now, a lack of confidence. To sort of kowtow to the french as schroder seems to do is insulting and to let the stinking international opinion make you less than proud of yourself is ridiculous. The "international opinion" will NEVER let you forget it, it allows them to have power over you. Tell them to shove it up their ass and go on about it. Reform your social policies, get back to work doing great things.

"Tell them to shove it up their ass and go on about it" haha that´s great, I couldn´t have said it any better myself. That´s exactly why I want no part of D-Day. That´s why I hate the fact that Schröder will go to France and probably hold hands with Chirac. And yes he is kowtowing to the french, at least sometimes. It´s a constant struggle for power in europe, and quite honestly I think all the other country still fear germany a little bit if only in an economic way. I just wish we would not have chosen France as our main ally.

And actually most of the younger germans are pretty confident about their country. That´s a reason why we want no part of all this. Like you say, other countrys use it to have power over us, and yes it´s a preferred startegy of the french. In the last few years it´s gotten better though. More and more people aren´t willing to take that crap any longer. They just want to live their lives in a souvereign german country (which we finally are). I think that´s also part of the reason why many of us are upset with all that D-Day hype that has evolved here in the last couple years. I guess there´s kind of a split between old and young people over this in Germany. The old are glad that the allys are finally excepting their apollogys so they don´t have to feel as guilty any more, and they are also glad that they finally have the guts to apollogize (which I respect). But the young people say screw you. We want no part of this and we certainly don´t wan´t to kowtow to the fernch.

You guys are known over here as some of the greatest mechanical technicians and artisans in the world. Precise, hard-working, diligent. You should take a back seat to no one. I wouldn't if I lived there, until NOW that is. I don't feel this is honorable.

Long speech, but you can either feel sorry for yourselves forever or get over yourselves and get back to competing and being the best that you can be. I don't know what the religious situation is in germany but if it's like france, then maybe you are already doomed. I don't see much chance for countries with no basis for morality. Their compass is off.

I don´t feel sorry for myself at all. I´m over with all that for sure. It´s only that most other german people aren´t and that´s a shame. Schröder going to the D Day parade and the media telling as we shoulöd be happy about it won´t help with that situation IMO. But you are right we do have great people over here and we should be proud of that and of our country. I certainly am. And oh yeah: screw the french [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img].

[dude1394]

You go fidel...

[twelli]

And I just wanted to thank the allies for landing on the coast of Normandie...

I have no problems with D-Day celebrations, those veterans experienced hell on Omaha Beach and they deserve to commemorate and remember what happened...

I have no problem either with the apologetic role Germany had to play for the past 59 years. At least we Germans all had to deal with what our fathers and grandfathers did under Hitler in school and know that it was wrong. The younger Japanese, in contrast, never really had to face their historic truth and many still deny events like the Nanjing massaker.

When I watch TV and see Americans sing their anthem, I don't really feel comfortable. Our history has showed that patriotism can be a dangerous thing especially if it makes you believe that your nation is superior to all the others. Please don't go overboard...

BTW, also thank you, Ronald, for defending our freedom against the Soviets with your weapons. In the early 80s we demonstrated against Pershing II and Cruise Missiles in Germany. Who would have thought that the Soviet Empire would crumble a decade later? I know, there was the danger of a nuclear war, but in the end it worked well for us in West Germany and in eastern Europe as well.